27 Feb 19: PAF shot down two Indian aircrafts inside Pakistani airspace: DG ISPR

[Flankerhunter]

Only 10 Su-30 MKIs have crashed (11th one in apr 2012 was a minor accident and plane was repaired).

But we have ordered 12 Su-30 MKIs as that is HALs current production rate per year (you can check HAL annual reports if you want). So we have ordered one full year of HALs Su-30 line.

Its max capacity z 12 which doesn't mean u need to order 12 every time I think u forgot to read @htTweets @ani nd all ur newspapers which clearly wrote "12 lost" nd these 12 jets are to replace the lost ones. Simple identify how U lost tht 12th Su30? How can they add extra crash in IAF baggage casually? where is the clarification from IAF if these reports are wrong? Even ANI is quoting MOD officials wrongly?

 

[PanzerKiel]

Just some random thoughts.....

The fighter pilot is the last remaining example on earth of the military gladiator, the individual champion. His is the last remaining chance going back to the days of chivalry, and go one-on-one against an opponent. A fighter pilot may rely on his aircraft performance the way a worrior of old depended on his horse’s abilities, but ultimately, when two pilots oppose each other in approximately comparable aircraft, the outcome is entirely one of courage and skill. In an age where numbers and mass count for everything and the individual for nothing, there is something very attractive about a fighter pilot. A successful one, of course.

The picture can be overdrawn. A fighter pilot squaring off one-on- one would certainly face problems with his officer commanding, because the air force, as any other branch of service, is interested not in heroics and gladiatorial dash, but in winning. And you win best by team work. The Israelis were the first to call themselves the Orange Juice Air Force because there they don’t encourage drinking, bravado, individuality and dash, but a quiet, unspectacular teamwork. The idea is to shoot more of them for each of us. That is the simple equation that governs air warfare.

The interesting thing about PAF and IAF is that each is a microcosm of their societies and their overall military position.

The Pakistan Air Force has always been far smaller than the I.A.F. The ratio has never been as bad as 1953, when India had about ten jet fighter squadrons to one of Pakistan’s but it has never been better than three-to-one. With resources being so tight, the P.A.F. has always striven to get the best return from a small force.

The P. A. F. reached its peak about 1960. It had ten combat squadrons, seven on the F-86 Sabre, two on B- 57 (the American version of the Canberra) and one on the F- 104 Starfighter, and about 160 combat aircraft. The I.A.F. had about 500 aircraft in 25 large squadrons.

The small Pakistani force operates with high efficiency, learning quickly from its American mentors that a small number of highly professional pilots flying standardized aircraft, and backed up with first class maintenance and a well-organized air base system costs less, and is more powerful, than a larger, more disorganized force.

The PAF has much smaller pool of fighter pilots, being a much smaller air force. This may not matter in a short war. In a long war, however, one lives off the fat till new pilots are trained, and as India has ample fat, the advantage is theirs. Admittedly the replacement pilots may not be as good as the first-line ones. But as the best ones disappear, or survive to get better, the not-so-good pilots become adequate in comparison to the PAF, which is also losing its good pilots.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

agree to all this I just want to add that the fighter pilot of today is not at all all alone and on his own today like the old days has the support of AWACS ground control and ground air defense batteries and radars.

yes in the end it is he who does all the fighting but he can use the high altitude friendly SAM batteries to lure the enemy into their sphere. get the support of EW aircrafts blinding the hostiles and better situational awareness from AWACS and share battle information with other fellow fighters.
despite all this it is still valid to call the fighter pilot the modern day gladiator who must rely on his mental prowess and wit to overcome his enemy

 

[Path-Finder]

 

[truthfollower]

It will unravel - conspiracies are impossible to hide when many people are involved.

what was the reason behind IAF missing the targets?
is it becuase of jamming or as mentioned in the documentary hastily dropped bombs?

 

[SQ8]

what was the reason behind IAF missing the targets?
is it becuase of jamming or as mentioned in the documentary hastily dropped bombs?

The reasons are outlined in one of @Ark_Angel ’s posts - you can go through the history on it. Im kind of busy to search for it .

 

[Ark_Angel]

what was the reason behind IAF missing the targets?
is it becuase of jamming or as mentioned in the documentary hastily dropped bombs?

Coordinate errors.
Spatial-Spread Spectrum-mismatch between GPS Coordinates and Topology of the Environment.

 

[aliyusuf]

Coordinate errors.
Spatial-Spread Spectrum-mismatch between GPS Coordinates and Topology of the Environment.

So it boils down to not being able to use the weapon to it's potential. Could be due to lack of training or lack of caliber or a bit of both.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Accused IAF officers seek to stop court martial

Two officers facing court martial for their alleged role in an incident of ‘friendly fire’ resulting in shooting down of an IAF Mi-17 chopper at Budgam on February 27, 2019 — a day after the Balakot strikes — have approached the Armed Forces Tribunal to stop proceedings and grant them access to the court of inquiry report. The case has thrown up a tricky legal question. Usually, the court of inquiry report is shared with the accused so that they can prepare a defence. In this case, however, a special clause has been invoked to not share details on grounds of national security.

Group Captain Suman Roy Chowdhury, the then second-in-command of the Srinagar air base as the chief operations officer (COO) who has been indicted, has moved the principal bench of the tribunal, pleading that the court martial be halted and the full proceedings of the court of inquiry report be supplied to him. The air traffic control (ATC) in-charge, Wing Commander Shyam Naithani, the other officer indicted, has moved a similar plea at the principal bench, challenging his summons for summary of evidence as part of the court martial.

Proceedings have Slowed Down
The IAF has invoked powers that enable the air chief to withhold the inquiry report for reasons of national security and only give the accused access to certain portions. A decision to share the report after the tribunal was moved is still to be taken and proceedings have slowed down for now, given the prevailing Covid-19 crisis.

As first reported by ET, the friendly fire incident took place over Budgam amid an air skirmish on February 27 last year with Pakistan. The air force helicopter was shot down by a Spyder air defence system within 10 minutes of taking off even as a dogfight raged over 100 km away between intruding Pakistani jets and the IAF. Six IAF personnel on board and a civilian on the ground had lost their lives in the crash. The IAF inquiry raised questions on the role of the air traffic controller and the terminal weapons director (TWD) of the airbase, who cleared the launch of the missile.

The position of TWD rotates between the air officer commanding of a base and the second-in-charge, the chief operations officer (COO). In this case, the TWD on duty was Group Captain Chowdhury. Sources said the inquiry has revealed several violations of standard operating procedures, given that the chopper was in the local flying area (LFA) of the airbase and was in radio contact with ground controllers moments before it crashed. The chopper did not deploy any countermeasures as it did not perceive any threat in the area and received no warning before the missile was fired.

http://idrw.org/budgam-friendly-fire-accused-iaf-officers-seek-to-stop-court-martial/ .

Military court stays action against officers in Srinagar chopper fratricide case

In a significant development, a military court today stayed further action in the ongoing disciplinary action against two officers allegedly involved in the Srinagar chopper fratricide case on the next day of Balakot airstrikes last year. Six Indian Air Force were killed in the case including two pilots and four other crew members over Budgam while they were returning to the Srinagar airbase around the same time when the Pakistani fighters were moving around Indian territory.

“Both the offices (Group Captain SR Chowdhary and Wing Commander Shyam Naithani) had challenged the court of inquiry (CoI) as well as its finding on the ground of violation of particular air force rules as well as the composition of the Court of Inquiry being contrary to Air Force order,” the counsel of the two officers Ankur Chhibber said.

“The court after hearing the parties was pleased to direct that prima facie there are violations in the CoI and therefore has directed that no action be taken based on the said CoI and its findings till the next date which is September 30,” he said.

The Principal Bench of the Armed Forces Tribunal headed by Chairman Rajendra Menon said that “we are of the considered view that the applicant has, prima facile, been able to demonstrate non-compliance with non statutory provisions in the conduct of court of inquiry.” W

hile Gp Captain Chaudhary was the Chief Operations Officer of the Srinagar airbase when the incident took place and the wing commander was the Senior Air Traffic Control officer (SATCO). A missile from the SPYDER air Defence Missile systems was fired at the Mi-17v5 chopper and brought it down immediately.

Military court stays action against officers in Srinagar chopper fratricide case – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

 

[M.SAAD]

Military court stays action against officers in Srinagar chopper fratricide case

In a significant development, a military court today stayed further action in the ongoing disciplinary action against two officers allegedly involved in the Srinagar chopper fratricide case on the next day of Balakot airstrikes last year. Six Indian Air Force were killed in the case including two pilots and four other crew members over Budgam while they were returning to the Srinagar airbase around the same time when the Pakistani fighters were moving around Indian territory.

“Both the offices (Group Captain SR Chowdhary and Wing Commander Shyam Naithani) had challenged the court of inquiry (CoI) as well as its finding on the ground of violation of particular air force rules as well as the composition of the Court of Inquiry being contrary to Air Force order,” the counsel of the two officers Ankur Chhibber said.

“The court after hearing the parties was pleased to direct that prima facie there are violations in the CoI and therefore has directed that no action be taken based on the said CoI and its findings till the next date which is September 30,” he said.

The Principal Bench of the Armed Forces Tribunal headed by Chairman Rajendra Menon said that “we are of the considered view that the applicant has, prima facile, been able to demonstrate non-compliance with non statutory provisions in the conduct of court of inquiry.” W

hile Gp Captain Chaudhary was the Chief Operations Officer of the Srinagar airbase when the incident took place and the wing commander was the Senior Air Traffic Control officer (SATCO). A missile from the SPYDER air Defence Missile systems was fired at the Mi-17v5 chopper and brought it down immediately.

Military court stays action against officers in Srinagar chopper fratricide case – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Was this poor Helicopter on a search and rescue mission for the downed Su 30 aircraft??

 

[m52k85]

Military court stays action against officers in Srinagar chopper fratricide case

In a significant development, a military court today stayed further action in the ongoing disciplinary action against two officers allegedly involved in the Srinagar chopper fratricide case on the next day of Balakot airstrikes last year. Six Indian Air Force were killed in the case including two pilots and four other crew members over Budgam while they were returning to the Srinagar airbase around the same time when the Pakistani fighters were moving around Indian territory.

“Both the offices (Group Captain SR Chowdhary and Wing Commander Shyam Naithani) had challenged the court of inquiry (CoI) as well as its finding on the ground of violation of particular air force rules as well as the composition of the Court of Inquiry being contrary to Air Force order,” the counsel of the two officers Ankur Chhibber said.

“The court after hearing the parties was pleased to direct that prima facie there are violations in the CoI and therefore has directed that no action be taken based on the said CoI and its findings till the next date which is September 30,” he said.

The Principal Bench of the Armed Forces Tribunal headed by Chairman Rajendra Menon said that “we are of the considered view that the applicant has, prima facile, been able to demonstrate non-compliance with non statutory provisions in the conduct of court of inquiry.” W

hile Gp Captain Chaudhary was the Chief Operations Officer of the Srinagar airbase when the incident took place and the wing commander was the Senior Air Traffic Control officer (SATCO). A missile from the SPYDER air Defence Missile systems was fired at the Mi-17v5 chopper and brought it down immediately.

Military court stays action against officers in Srinagar chopper fratricide case – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Have the proceedings disclosed anywhere what exactly were the chain of mistakes that caused the incident?

 

[Dark1]

Have the proceedings disclosed anywhere what exactly were the chain of mistakes that caused the incident?

Switched off the IFF , friends or foes radar in the helicopter. Human error or lack of proper SOP.
That's what these accused guys are probably saying. That in a fluid situation, how could we identify the helio as a friend if radar is off.
In my armchair view, since the situation was neither peace nor war , but some intermediate position, the rules to be followed were not clear. In peacetime the radar could be off , but in a active situation it should always be on.
But do these iff radars also make you a target with their emissions ?

 

[m52k85]

Switched off the IFF , friends or foes radar in the helicopter. Human error or lack of proper SOP.
That's what these accused guys are probably saying. That in a fluid situation, how could we identify the helio as a friend if radar is off.
In my armchair view, since the situation was neither peace nor war , but some intermediate position, the rules to be followed were not clear. In peacetime the radar could be off , but in a active situation it should always be on.
But do these iff radars also make you a target with their emissions ?

Sorry I didnt understand. The IFF was probably turned off or we know the IFF was turned off and they are probably using that as an excuse?

I know little about IFF to say if it makes you a target, all I know is some systems work by 'interrogating' a counterpart which then sends a reply, dont know if that makes it a continuously emitting system.

 

[Dark1]

Sorry I didnt understand. The IFF was probably turned off or we know the IFF was turned off and they are probably using that as an excuse?

I know little about IFF to say if it makes you a target, all I know is some systems work by 'interrogating' a counterpart which then sends a reply, dont know if that makes it a continuously emitting system.

Suppose their was a gap in the SOP or in the technology or in the communication setup , do you seriously think it would or should be put in the public domain ? These are military matters. Even the officers challenging and it being all in the newspapers is abnormal by military court standards. I hope in the name of 'transparency' the airforce does not reveal any secrets.

 

[Trailer23]

This image always puts a whenever I look at it.