27 Feb 19: PAF shot down two Indian aircrafts inside Pakistani airspace: DG ISPR

[loanranger]

Why hasn't the Su30 crash site been discovered. Is it that easy for Indians to hide a aircraft loss? What happened to the pilot's? If they survived it's easier to keep a lid on things but if they are dead why does no one talk about them.

 

[Shabi1]

Why hasn't the Su30 crash site been discovered. Is it that easy for Indians to hide a aircraft loss? What happened to the pilot's? If they survived it's easier to keep a lid on things but if they are dead why does no one talk about them.

1. Communication services in Kashmir are controlled by Indian military. If they can have a complete media lockout in Kashmir for several months and hide whats going on there they can hide a SU-30 crash even though there now is a eye witness claim video of one crashing in Indian territory.
2. They havnt made any claims for the second pilot that has died in Pakistan so Pakistan has no obligation to reveal. Revelation of a dead pilot would put pressure on InAF to retaliate and has some political side effects too.

 

[Amigator]

 

[loanranger]

1. Communication services in Kashmir are controlled by Indian military. If they can have a complete media lockout in Kashmir for several months and hide whats going on there they can hide a SU-30 crash even though there now is a eye witness claim video of one crashing in Indian territory.
2. They havnt made any claims for the second pilot that has died in Pakistan so Pakistan has no obligation to reveal. Revelation of a dead pilot would put pressure on InAF to retaliate and has some political side effects too.

Your explaination is completely plausible. PAF openely claims a su30 kill. Its in the new Operation Swift Retort memorial aswell. However, it is a unseen event. Unlike the mig bison of which we had HD videos instantly. Thats the only thing the bothers me i.e. word of mouth. Along with blatant denials by indian Airforce officials and radar controllers that no su30 went down.

 

[Pak-Canuck]

Your explaination is completely plausible. PAF openely claims a su30 kill. Its in the new Operation Swift Retort memorial aswell. However, it is a unseen event. Unlike the mig bison of which we had HD videos instantly. Thats the only thing the bothers me i.e. word of mouth. Along with blatant denials by indian Airforce officials and radar controllers that no su30 went down.

Dont forget the detailed post #8420 in this thread which clearly has videos of witnesses on Pak side seeing "sikh pilot (s) captured" in ADDITION to Abhninandan, witnesses on Indian side that saw a FIGHTER JET coming back from Pak border in flames and crashing on Indian side (right where the infmaous indian news anchor claims SU-30 shot down by Pak F-16 in Nowshera) in addition to the video with 2 chutes coming down, so not just word of mouth

A Su-30 being shot down would be extremely embarrassing after all the showboating and obviously they would take every measure to cover it up (just like claiming the Mig-27 went down to engine failure in Kargil at the exact same time the Mig-21 was shot down), this crash didnt land near any villagers and you can be damned sure that if someone had taken a clip of it they would have then claimed that it too went down cause of engine failure

 

[Pak-Canuck]

Okay, I know this has been discussed NUMEROUS times now, but please read this ENTIRE post as it's a good video analysis / comparison:

We pretty much have three versions of events:

1) PAF shot down 1 IAF Mig-21 and that same Mig-21 took out a PAF F-16 (View supported by majority of indians)

2) PAF shot down 1 IAF Mig-21 AND 1 IAF SU-30 (View supported by majority of Pakistanis)

3) PAF shot down 1 IAF Mig-21 (View supported by a good number of people from both sides)


NOW THEN, I know most of these videos have been seen before, but PLEASE HAVE A COMPLETE LOOK at ALL of them again:

1) Clip of shootdown, in vid guy clearly says 2 parachutes there

2) Vid of witness of Abhinandan capture and complete sequence of events

3) Vid recently discovered and uploaded of INDIAN witnesses claiming how their plane went over border and CAME BACK AND CRASHED IN SHER MAKRI in IOK

4) NOW FOR THE REALLY INTERESTING clips that may have been forgotten by lots of members or may not have been seen. ANOTHER WITNESS who saw Abhinandan being captured ALONG WITH SIKH PILOT(S)

5) Full clip of Abhinandan being taken into Pak army truck and Witnesses TALKING ABOUT THE OTHER 2 CAPTURED (Part 1)

6) Full clip of Abhinandan being taken into Pak army truck and Witnesses TALKING ABOUT THE OTHER 2 CAPTURED (Part 2)

Now then, for all intents and purposes, view point number 3 about only 1 IAF mig-21 going down can be CLEARLY thrown out the window because of all these clips, which leaves viewpoints #1 and #2. But then Clip number 3 states clearly that IAF plane went down in Sher Makri (so can't be Abhinandan's Mig-21) and CANT BE a PAF F-16 (otherwise they would have displayed that footage non-stop for the rest of eternity). Sher Makri is ALSO IN NOWSHERA sector, where this Indian anchor clearly let this slip:

7)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDSp3hnfZlg


And Clip #4-6 clearly mention other pilots being captured, with AT LEAST ONE BEING Sikh which only supports viewpoint number 2 with the IAF plane crashing in IOK and the pilots landing in Azad Kashmir. Don't then forget DG ISPR's initial post about 3 prisoners taken, later changed to 1.

So I know the common response by the nay-sayers would be:

A) Pak beat up and killed their own pilot, which has been debunked by clip #3 & 4 above,
B) Why change statement from 3 to 1 and why hide the fact then?

Well some probable answers would be:

1) The other captured pilots could then be easily interrogated and or tortured for info as their country wants to deny that they were even shot down or captured so no consequences there (don't underestimate the value of a captured Weapon Systems Officer, i.e details like IAF Su-30 weapon countermeasures, tactics, squadron info, planes in which hangars etc etc)

2) As per some sightings and reports, the sikh pilot(s) died as their chute caught on fire or made a bad landing and pak not wanting to escalate the issue as the image we were portraying is that we never intended to cause loss of life in either the ground strikes or with pilot capture, and handed over the dead body without displaying images unlike with Abhinandan as it would have forced Indians to do atleast some sort of retaliation due to public pressure

3) Combination of the 2, especially with the rumors of atleast one of the pilots being Israeli which Pak kept secret on purpose and used for leverage with the US and Israel

Don't know how I missed it but I just found this video as well that wasn't in the list I included above!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxwWO0-Z0hU

Yes, this is the footage of the Mi-17 that was shot down, but WATCH THE INTERVIEW AT 1:48 where he talks about a SECOND AIRCRAFT that crashed nearby (at 2:20) and points to the direction, mind you this IS IOK, so he is NOT TALKING ABOUT the Mig-21!!!

 

[airomerix]

Interestingly, the recent visit by Russian deputy commander to Islamabad revealed a few things.

On the day of his departure from Chakala, he was shown around the base since the weather was down and the delegation had to wait for a couple of hours. In a casual chat with the officers at the tea bar, he was asked point blank about Su-30 kill and apparently he was furious with the Indians and how they employed the Su-30s routinely

He briefed the pilots about the kinds of missions Su-30 is capable of and how Russians employ it (sweep, high altitude A2A etc). And he had to say that Indians have destroyed the reputation of Su-30. He said they became aware of the Su-30 loss the same night.

When asked why didnt Russia come forward with this news, he said 'its all about politics'

There were a few other things aswell which i can't post here. However this loss will come forward one day or another.

 

[graphican]

A witness from Indian Occupied Kashmir speaking of a crashed twin-engine fighter jet that fell in India - the second aircraft Su-30MKI. Thanks to @Pak-Canuck

 

[Bratva]

Interestingly, the recent visit by Russian deputy commander to Islamabad revealed a few things.

On the day of his departure from Chakala, he was shown around the base since the weather was down and the delegation had to wait for a couple of hours. In a casual chat with the officers at the tea bar, he was asked point blank about Su-30 kill and apparently he was furious with the Indians and how they employed the Su-30s routinely

He briefed the pilots about the kinds of missions Su-30 is capable of and how Russians employ it (sweep, high altitude A2A etc). And he had to say that Indians have destroyed the reputation of Su-30. He said they became aware of the Su-30 loss the same night.

When asked why didnt Russia come forward with this news, he said 'its all about politics'

There were a few other things aswell which i can't post here. However this loss will come forward one day or another.

why PAF is not releasing SU-30 kill evidences (electronic atleast) to counter IAF fake radar data ?

 

[airomerix]

why PAF is not releasing SU-30 kill evidences (electronic atleast) to counter IAF fake radar data ?

PAF did not pursue Su-30 kill aggressively for several reasons.

The biggest one was to restore balance in the region. There was an understanding between both the AHQ's that any further claims of victories during those volatile times would build more pressure on each other from their respective governments and public alike.

IAF naturally had to push F-16 kill narrative harder due to Abhinandan's presence in Pakistan and Mi-17 crash videos being leaked. Hence it had no choice but to claim a kill to cool its public down.

PAF, on the other hand, had a living breathing enemy officer in its possession along with the debris of the aircraft. Along with comprehensive videos of targetted attacks on Indian installations.

Any further escalation in an effort to prove Su-30 kill could have resulted in IAF getting desperate, hence leading to another misadventure by India. It wasn't in anyone's favour.

 

[Bratva]

PAF did not pursue Su-30 kill aggressively for several reasons.

The biggest one was to restore balance in the region. There was an understanding between both the AHQ's that any further claims of victories during those volatile times would build more pressure on each other from their respective governments and public alike.

IAF naturally had to push F-16 kill narrative harder due to Abhinandan's presence in Pakistan and Mi-17 crash videos being leaked. Hence it had no choice but to claim a kill to cool its public down.

PAF, on the other hand, had a living breathing enemy officer in its possession along with the debris of the aircraft. Along with comprehensive videos of targetted attacks on Indian installations.

Any further escalation in an effort to prove Su-30 kill could have resulted in IAF getting desperate, hence leading to another misadventure by India. It wasn't in anyone's favour.

This came from Kaiser Tufail latest article.

"PAF retaliated within 30 hours of the IAF strike, and hit Indian military targets with stand-off bombs, staying well within own territory. The sizeable strike package including its escorts, as well as the accompanying fighter sweep aircraft swamped the Indian air defence radar scopes, and the patrolling Su-30 aircraft were promptly vectored towards the PAF swarm. Sooner the PAF strike fighters had delivered the bombs and turned around, the F-16s and JF-17s swept the skies, with very useful support from data-linked AEWC and ground radars, as well as from own formation members. The pilots were glued to their multi-function displays streaming vital information and firing cues. It was as if a whole squadron was playing a mass video game in the skies. With excellent situational awareness, and the adversary in disarray, an F-16 fired a BVR AMRAAM (AIM-120C) at an approaching Su-30. Whether the aircraft survived with nil or minor damage, or was hit critically remains moot, but the missile coming from nowhere and exploding in the vicinity resulted in complete panic amongst the IAF aircraft.



DG ISPR is insistently claiming Pakistan Shot down SU-30. PAF Awarded SU-30 claim to Hassan Siddique

On the other hand, Kaiser Tufail is still casting doubts on SU-30 Kill claim

Don't you feel, Kaiser Tufail is knowledgeable yet not insisting on SU-30 kill claim is kind of an indication PAF is not sure about SU-30 claim at all ?

P.S. If the intention was to de-escalate, wasn't it better to not claim a SU-30 kill ? or not let PAF give medals to Hassan Siddique and Stop DG ISPR tweeting about SU-30 kill until now ? Because all of these things are making Pakistan look weak that they are claiming things without evidence and making Pakistan narrative weaker that they are lying.

 

[SIPRA]

This came from Kaiser Tufail latest article.

"PAF retaliated within 30 hours of the IAF strike, and hit Indian military targets with stand-off bombs, staying well within own territory. The sizeable strike package including its escorts, as well as the accompanying fighter sweep aircraft swamped the Indian air defence radar scopes, and the patrolling Su-30 aircraft were promptly vectored towards the PAF swarm. Sooner the PAF strike fighters had delivered the bombs and turned around, the F-16s and JF-17s swept the skies, with very useful support from data-linked AEWC and ground radars, as well as from own formation members. The pilots were glued to their multi-function displays streaming vital information and firing cues. It was as if a whole squadron was playing a mass video game in the skies. With excellent situational awareness, and the adversary in disarray, an F-16 fired a BVR AMRAAM (AIM-120C) at an approaching Su-30. Whether the aircraft survived with nil or minor damage, or was hit critically remains moot, but the missile coming from nowhere and exploding in the vicinity resulted in complete panic amongst the IAF aircraft.



DG ISPR is insistently claiming Pakistan Shot down SU-30. PAF Awarded SU-30 claim to Hassan Siddique

On the other hand, Kaiser Tufail is still casting doubts on SU-30 Kill claim

Don't you feel, Kaiser Tufail is knowledgeable yet not insisting on SU-30 kill claim is kind of an indication PAF is not sure about SU-30 claim at all ?

P.S. If the intention was to de-escalate, wasn't it better to not claim a SU-30 kill ? or not let PAF give medals to Hassan Siddique and Stop DG ISPR tweeting about SU-30 kill until now ? Because all of these things are making Pakistan look weak that they are claiming things without evidence and making Pakistan narrative weaker that they are lying.

Only one correction. DG (ISPR) has only claimed a second kill; but he never mentioned it to be SU-30.

 

[airomerix]

This came from Kaiser Tufail latest article.

"PAF retaliated within 30 hours of the IAF strike, and hit Indian military targets with stand-off bombs, staying well within own territory. The sizeable strike package including its escorts, as well as the accompanying fighter sweep aircraft swamped the Indian air defence radar scopes, and the patrolling Su-30 aircraft were promptly vectored towards the PAF swarm. Sooner the PAF strike fighters had delivered the bombs and turned around, the F-16s and JF-17s swept the skies, with very useful support from data-linked AEWC and ground radars, as well as from own formation members. The pilots were glued to their multi-function displays streaming vital information and firing cues. It was as if a whole squadron was playing a mass video game in the skies. With excellent situational awareness, and the adversary in disarray, an F-16 fired a BVR AMRAAM (AIM-120C) at an approaching Su-30. Whether the aircraft survived with nil or minor damage, or was hit critically remains moot, but the missile coming from nowhere and exploding in the vicinity resulted in complete panic amongst the IAF aircraft.



DG ISPR is insistently claiming Pakistan Shot down SU-30. PAF Awarded SU-30 claim to Hassan Siddique

On the other hand, Kaiser Tufail is still casting doubts on SU-30 Kill claim

Don't you feel, Kaiser Tufail is knowledgeable yet not insisting on SU-30 kill claim is kind of an indication PAF is not sure about SU-30 claim at all ?

Kaiser Tufail is an honourable man who is very much active in international aviation communities aswell.

The nature of his activities and participation with international counterparts requires him to be analytical and credible in his approach. The Su-30 kill evidence (electronic or physical) has not been released by either of the Air Forces. Hence Kaiser Tufail will hate to pen anything down which would cast doubts over his entire narrative due to lack of evidence.

I spoke to him in March, 2019 and till that time he was still waiting for the evidence of the Su-30 kill which PAF refused to share for reasons stated in my earlier post.

 

[Bratva]

Only one correction. DG (ISPR) has only claimed a second kill; but he never mentioned it to be SU-30.

Read his tweets from his Personal Account. He claimed Su-30 Kill couple months back. Few days ago, he again tweeted about the second kill claim.

 

[airomerix]

Only one correction. DG (ISPR) has only claimed a second kill; but he never mentioned it to be SU-30.

It's no secret that it was a Su-30. The memorial at Mushaf and Karachi museum speaks loud and clear. The difference is, we're just not rubbing it in the face of the Indian government and public.