2 years in jail, Rs500,000 fine for mocking Pakistani forces as amendment bill passed

[VCheng]

And of course the Army has blame here - the reason these perceptions are as strong as they are is because of the Army’s direct and indirect interventions in the past. But we can’t continue to cling to the past even as we learn from it.

You nailed it. How many times does a power junkie have to claim they have given up meth this time for sure, until the next temptation presents itself, before we should believe him/her? Would it be fair to say that just as there is no credible evidence for interventions now, as was clearly done in the past, there is no credible evidence to support the claim that such interventions have indeed stopped?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You nailed it. How many times does a power junkie have to claim they have given up meth this time for sure, until the next temptation presents itself, before we should believe him/her? Would it be fair to say that just as there is no credible evidence for interventions now, as was clearly done in the past, there is no credible evidence to support the claim that such interventions have indeed stopped?

And that’s where we run into the logical fallacy of trying to prove a negative - hence the legal standard to establish guilt rather than prove innocence.

You don’t have to trust a past junkie, but you don’t throw him into jail/rehab again or abuse and accuse him of using without evidence either.

 

[VCheng]

And that’s where we run into the logical fallacy of trying to prove a negative - hence the legal standard to establish guilt rather than prove innocence.

You don’t have to trust a past junkie, but you don’t throw him into jail/rehab again or abuse and accuse him of using without evidence either.

That is only fair not to accuse without proof, but also to maintain a healthy skepticism given the past history.

 

[krash]

The time when army decided to rule became most prosperous period from Gen Ayub to Gen Musharaf if you put constitution aside...

As Gen Zia said....what is constitution just a booklet.

Tell me one more thing about @krash 's allegations...did he have any proof?

You need to understand that I won't entertain every single uneducated fanboy who has more emotions for an institute rife with corruption than his own country. Why? Because you will keep on throwing silly statements as above and demand answers. Statements which are an embarrassment to answer, let alone ask. I'll still do it one time.

1) Firstly, the army does not get to "decide to rule" anyone. Its power is by my allowance and my allowance limits it to the barracks. The mere act of "deciding to rule" is treason and punishable by death. So I don't care if the Generals dug rivers of honey and milk during their "tenures", they committed treason and are liable to it. Secondly, the military rules were not the most prosperous times for Pakistan nor the reason for our economic uptick. Mountains of very substantial research out there on this. Mountains more on the disasters they pushed us in to. I won't be answering empty rhetoric again.

2) Gen Zia's statement is akin to treason and idiotic enough to show that that man probably wasn't fit for the barracks either. Had you given two squats about your country instead of a corrupt treasonous usurper you would have known that. Your constitution is what makes Pakistan a country, without it there is no Pakistan. Gives you everything that entails being a Pakistani and a human being, without it you can fly right off. In fact, it is the only thing which gave that snake his authority. Had you not been an uber-fanboy you would have been disgusted by his statement. Instead, you are waving it around as some divine decree from a saint. Btw, quite hilarious how you justified the defiling of the constitution with a statement from a man who defiled it.

3) Mountains of it out there, from military personnel as well. If you pretend to be blind to it then I choose to not be trapped in disingenuous debates. You don't even know what they do to their own who refuse to partake.

No they suppose to be very wise but your comments are as naive as Indian trolls come here to say something bad about Pakistan.
You disappoints me a lot and don't took it personally but you are not a moderator material at all.

I don't really care, my primary responsibility is to my country. Everyone else can take a hike along with your silly accusations.

I've personally never been asked to tone down any unsavory opinions of mine. Nor has @krash as far as I'm aware. It needs to be said, and I'm glad PDF is perhaps one of the only major forums where reasonable criticism is allowed.

Never. In fact, I'm pretty sure, my criticism for the military's corruption was well known before I was appointed as a mod.

 

[VCheng]

Never. In fact, I'm pretty sure, my criticism for the military's corruption was well known before I was appointed as a mod.

Does that mean I can accuse you of having the right kind of strong connections that obviously surmounted such views without any proof?

 

[newb3e]

What you want we trial him in a military court? because your civil courts filled with the most corrupt people.

I already gave you the reasoning.......If armed forces are allowed to do operation inside country against terrorist then how can they are not allowed to do operation to throw of traitors to save the country?

your civil courts? the same civil courts full of syasi bhartis by syasi parties created by all powerful! khair sir g Pakistan hai toh hum hain,Pakistan hai toh wardi ka power hai! if things dont change and wardi dont change their approach i fear for our homeland!

criticism of wardi != anti Pakistan sir g!

boys inc expansion shouldnt be more important than Pakistan!

 

[arjunk]

Hang by whom ? again same institution who constantly do check and balance with in itself.

Same institution has also done 3 martial-laws, 4 coups, ousted 6 governments, and put Pakistan under direct military rule for 33 years. While I do acknowledge that many generals and higher ups have worked hard their entire lives to rightfully attain positions of power, you cannot paint all the generals as innocent angels who will save us during Ghazwa-e-Hind like angels saved Muslims at Badr. They need to be open to criticism, because absolute power and immunity will corrupt even the most hard-working and innocent people.

I, and the majority of Pakistan, fully support our armed forces in their struggle to defend the country against foreign invasions and terrorism. HOWEVER, passing laws like this makes it look like they have something to hide. Note that the majority of propaganda comes from India or the US, laws like this are only meant to censor and intimidate Pakistanis. Ironically, this law just gives those countries even more material to make propaganda against Pakistan and its military.

 

[krash]

You should, however, set an example of how to conduct a good debate by using credible sources and evidence to justify your claims.

My debate and arguments are completely valid, at least IMO. The entire point of the debate and history of Pakistan is that the military controls the strings from behind the curtains. The curtain has lifted a dozen times already, yet you want me to only debate their current involvement in a matter which only benefits them when I have proof of it. How do you do that when the curtain is there? Are you proposing that we first wait the few decades for it to drop? What have we fixed from Ayub, Zia, and Musharraf?

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck....

You’ve also indirectly insulted me and many other who don’t buy into the claims of the Army being behind this bill (without credible evidence supporting said claims) by essentially calling us ‘willfully stupid and sell outs’.

Not at all. You've inferred it incorrectly.

Just because I am a mod, the poster explicitly demanded that I should a) not voice my opinion at all because it goes against the Army, i.e. become willfully stupid, and b) tow the Army's line against what I actually believe in, i.e. become a sell out. Are you censoring your opinion and/or deliberately fabricating your stance, for one reason or the other? I never implied that you were.

 

[krash]

Several high profile PTI leaders like Fawad Chaudhry have come out against the bill, so that undermines your claim that the politicians who introduced and voted for this bill in committee ‘had no choice and were coerced by the Army’.

So because 'A' was not coerced, 'B' could not have been either?

And no, holding elected representatives accountable is not treating the symptom - it is addressing the root cause, which is elected representatives not addressing issues important to their electorate and not being honest and forthcoming about ANY unconstitutional pressure being put on them.

Again, that elected representative has the backing of his uniformed benefactors. The electorate means little to him. The moment he refuses them, out he goes and in comes another. Can't find another? No worries, we'll usurp the country ourselves. Please keep in mind that I am not arguing against addressing the politician, I am against not addressing the uniformed hand above and behind him.

And pray tell, what exactly will satisfy you that the bill was pushed by misguided nationalists and not the Army?

Any proof that such fantastical politicians exist in today's parliament. A statement or two from them? Any precedence at all will suffice. Surely, these misguided nationalists would have more obvious targets than those who offend the military's sentiments?

Please remember that YOU are making the claim that the Army is behind this, so the responsibility lies with you to support your claim with credible evidence and sources, and not merely resort to history and anecdotal conspiracy theories.

I'm sorry Agno, it makes no sense. There is a massive, MASSIVE, and virtually all power entity out there which has literally ruled the country directly and indirectly throughout the entirety of its existence. It has toppled governments, usurped power, and admittedly controlled from the shadows. You and I know for a fact that this is all true. They have imprisoned and persecuted their own for exactly the reasons they are trying to now through this bill. Yet, not only do you refuse to accept the obvious signs you keep demanding proof which you know for a fact will never be made available to you and I in our wildest dreams. As has never been before. Believe we're at an impasse.

That is only fair not to accuse without proof, but also to maintain a healthy skepticism given the past history.

You cannot accuse anyone without reason. You cannot convict anyone without proof. For the hapless civilian Pakistanis there is never any proof, the ones you want proof against made sure of that.

Does that mean I can accuse you of having the right kind of strong connections that obviously surmounted such views without any proof?

Haha

 

[SQ8]

@krash Based upon what you said I have a theory(and nothing more) interpreting your post that the law was pushed under the guise of silencing PTM and their ilk with 50% unwitting and others coerced into getting it out there. The net result however is that essentially Pakistan today is no different in heading towards a power situation resembling Myanmar. With a civilian government serving nothing more than a zoom filter for the military leadership who consider no one their intellectual equal in ruling/running the country.

However, this isn’t some malevolent cabal but rather individuals with Pakistan’s interest which are by serendipity also their own interests. Interests seen within their own lens of their military background, seeing the bad corruption of the two dynasty parties while their own internal elitism and “minor” good corruption is deserved since they went to Siachen while these bloody civilians don’t.

Even within these top individuals it is likely only 4 had the initial idea to protect their interests and got buy in from the majority at the round table to make this happen.

unfortunately, both the military-nationalists here and outside of PDF seem to think critique of executives actions means critique of the entire employee pool and the entire parent company itself.

Hence as the law states - if Pakistan was Microsoft then critique of the Division VP and leadership of the defender antivirus means insult to not just them but every employee in that division and insult to all holistic Microsoft!

Again, it is a theory and not an accusation - lest I find myself jailed because some “mohibul fauj ibne watan” misinterprets this - after all, under this law one could say that the repeated red and white stripes painted on the curb near the offices of DHA Karachi are odd and be jailed for it.

 

[Maarkhoor]

@arjunk @newb3e @Jungibaaz @krash
Please watch this video...

@SQ8 please watch full video.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

2 years in jail, Rs500,000 fine for mocking Pakistani forces as amendment bill passed
Pakistan
Azaz Syed
April 07, 2021

PTI lawmaker Amjad Ali Khan had submitted the new amendment bill, which was passed by a majority vote

(Top) The National Assembly Standing Committee on Interior meets for a session in Islamabad, Pakistan. Geo Urdu/Files; (Bottom) The Pakistani armed forces during a parade. Geo.tv/Files

• Critics of Pakistan's armed forces to face two years in jail, fine worth up to Rs500,000 or both, as pernew criminal law amendment bill.
• National Assembly Standing Committee on Interior passed bill submitted byPTI lawmaker Amjad Ali Khan.
• The committee's chairperson, Raja Khurram Shahzad Nawaz of the PTI, broke the 5-5 vote tie by voting in favour of the bill.
• "Criticism in good faith should not be misunderstood. Why are they being made sacred cows," the lawmakers against the bill argued.

ISLAMABAD: Critics of the Pakistan armed forces now face two years in jail as well as fines worth up to Rs500,000, as per a new criminal law amendment bill passed Wednesday by the National AssemblyStanding Committee on Interior.
Submitted by PTI lawmakerAmjad Ali Khan, the bill was approved by a majority. The chairperson of thestanding committee, Raja Khurram Shahzad Nawaz, broke the 5-5 vote tie by voting in favour of the proposed bill.
PPP leaderSyed Agha Rafiullah, as well as the PML-N's Marriyum Aurangzeb and Chaudhry Nadeem Abbas Rebaira, argued against the bill, saying it would be used against freedom of expression in Pakistan.


The Khyber Pakhtunkhwa government has voted against the bill even though the remaining three provinces were yet to express their views on it, they argued. "It is against our own institutions [and] we stand strong with our institutions.
"However, criticism in good faith should not be misunderstood. Why are they being made sacred cows," they argued further.
Under the criminal law amendment bill, Pakistan's armed forces and their personnel would be free from any deliberate ridicule, insult, and defamation. Those who do so would be punishable under Section 500A of the Pakistan Penal Code (PPC), with punishment including jail time of two years, a fine of up to Rs500,000 or both.
Furthermore, critics of the Pakistani armed forces would face trial in a civil court, according tothe criminal law amendment bill.

2 years in jail, Rs500,000 fine for mocking Pakistani forces as amendment bill passed

Critics of Pakistan's armed forces to face two years in jail, fine worth up to Rs500,000 or both, as per new criminal law amendment bill.National Assembly Standing Committee on Interior passed bill submitted by PTI...

www.geo.tv

@Horus @waz @The Eagle @krash @Jungibaaz @PakSword @ghazi52 @SQ8 @Areesh @Zibago @Patriot forever @ziaulislam @Del @Verve @muhammadhafeezmalik @FOOLS_NIGHTMARE @Indus Pakistan @Jazzbot

So would it apply to me if I point out the inability of POF/HIT brigadiers on here??

Matlab will I be an outlaw in Pakistan from here on?

 

[Maarkhoor]

 

[That Guy]

I have a feeling that this is gonna go to the courts, who're gonna strike it down.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

So because 'A' was not coerced, 'B' could not have been either?

What’s the evidence that B was coerced?

I keep asking you to support your claim with evidence but all you provide me with is history and gossip/speculation.

Any proof that such fantastical politicians exist in today's parliament. A statement or two from them? Any precedence at all will suffice. Surely, these misguided nationalists would have more obvious targets than those who offend the military's sentiments?

That’s not an answer to my question - instead of going around in circles using the argument ‘everyone knows’ (which is essentially anecdotal gossip) please tell me what specifically will satisfy YOU that the Army is not involved.

What tangible, measurable things will convince you that the Army is not involved?