2 years in jail, Rs500,000 fine for mocking Pakistani forces as amendment bill passed

[Maarkhoor]

So does that mean the military does not need to obey it because they are above the law?

They are under the law but if law maker wants to destroy country then they have to remove that law maker not the l;aw itself.

 

[VCheng]

They are under the law but if law maker wants to destroy country then they have to remove that law maker not the l;aw itself.

Okay, if that is true that they are under the law, you can tell me what law gives them the legal authority to remove that law maker? Do you see any problems with your claims here? Such contrived falsehoods cannot stand scrutiny.

 

[arjunk]

the same scoundrels save your @ss from India and others.

Actually, incompetent higher ups are the reason Pakistan has lost most of its battles. In 1971 if they didn't change their mind every 3 seconds and refuse to coordinate with PAF then a massive attack would be launched on East Punjab and bring 1/3 of it under Pakistani control. And don't get me started on the treason some high ranking officers have comitted recently. A few were hanged for it a while ago.

 

[Maarkhoor]

Okay, if that is true that they are under the law, you can tell me what law gives them the legal authority to remove that law maker? Do you see any problems with your claims here? Such contrived falsehoods cannot stand scrutiny.

As I told you don't say thing like you only understand white and black....there are many thing falls under gray for some these thing are good for some these are not good but to catch a thief sometime cop need to jump red signal witch is violation of law but cop decided either protecting citizens from thief is more good or not than the violation.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Not at all. It is simple critical reasoning. This is how it has always been, for 75 years. This is how they do it, every single time. It has precedence after precedence after precedence. I for one cannot wait till the 'water over the bridge' moment to raise my concerns.



Would that not be treating the symptoms?



You know that's not how it works. On the domestic political landscape the army is the mafia. It will make you do whatever they want you to do. Fortunately for them they have corrupt politicians to first leverage, then pin the blame on and then throw under the buss.



Until the Army stops meddling in every single thing in this country nothing will change. And just like the elected officials, the Army needs to be held accountable for its actions which are always done behind the veil. We cannot sit here believing it to be real just because the puppeteer is standing behind the curtain.



Even if the electorate was aware enough, that would still do nothing to reduce the military's stranglehold on anything. Nor will it work owing to the brownie points earned by those politicians for doing the army's bidding.



The system will evolve when it's allowed to evolve. Why has it only devolved for 75 years? Soon the entire discussion will be moot; the army is set to squash any evolution ever by snuffing out all criticism of the most powerful entity in the Pakistani power dynamics.



3 martial-laws, 4 coups, 6 ousted governments, 33 years under direct military rule, repeated political sponsorship of would be snakes (ZAB, PMLN, MQM, PMLQ, etc.), a massive intelligence wing dedicated to domestic politics, and proven corruption at the highest echelons for 75 years begs to differ.

We should all be familiar with the taste of these excuses by now.




Nicely done Major Sahib, giving India's example when it suited your narrative. The same India which is the sum of all evil in every other instance, right? And no, every single nation worth its salt allows it, in fact celebrates it. Clearly, you're a victim of tunnel vision syndrome.

Again, past actions and speculation are not a substitute for evidence establishing that the Army was behind this bill.

Several high profile PTI leaders like Fawad Chaudhry have come out against the bill, so that undermines your claim that the politicians who introduced and voted for this bill in committee ‘had no choice and were coerced by the Army’. And no, holding elected representatives accountable is not treating the symptom - it is addressing the root cause, which is elected representatives not addressing issues important to their electorate and not being honest and forthcoming about ANY unconstitutional pressure being put on them.

And pray tell, what exactly will satisfy you that the bill was pushed by misguided nationalists and not the Army?

Please remember that YOU are making the claim that the Army is behind this, so the responsibility lies with you to support your claim with credible evidence and sources, and not merely resort to history and anecdotal conspiracy theories.

 

[Maarkhoor]

A few were hanged for it a while ago.

Hang by whom ? again same institution who constantly do check and balance with in itself.

 

[VCheng]

As I told you don't say thing like you only understand white and black....there are many thing falls under gray for some these thing are good for some these are not good but to catch a thief sometime cop need to jump red signal witch is violation of law but cop decided either protecting citizens from thief is more good or not than the violation.

Okay, I can understand your point that the Army is under the law until it decides to be above the law, and they get to decide what is a gray area and what is not. Okay, It kind of makes sense, looking at Pakistan. Not my problem.

 

[Maarkhoor]

Not my problem.

Thanks a lot.

Bye

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Are moderators supposed to be willfully stupid or sellouts?

You should, however, set an example of how to conduct a good debate by using credible sources and evidence to justify your claims.

You’ve also indirectly insulted me and many other who don’t buy into the claims of the Army being behind this bill (without credible evidence supporting said claims) by essentially calling us ‘willfully stupid and sell outs’.

 

[VCheng]

Please remember that YOU are making the claim that the Army is behind this, so the responsibility lies with you to support your claim with credible evidence and sources, and not merely resort to history and anecdotal conspiracy theories.

Such credible evidence cannot exist, hence the allegations cannot be regarded seriously from a legal standpoint, clearly.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Such credible evidence cannot exist, hence the allegations cannot be regarded seriously from a legal standpoint, clearly.

There’s nothing credible supporting the claims (aside from anecdotal conspiracy theories and gossip) from a non-legal standpoint either.

 

[VCheng]

There’s nothing credible supporting the claims (aside from anecdotal conspiracy theories and gossip) from a non-legal standpoint either.

I can accept that statement too, except that public perceptions follow a very different standard than legal arguments. Therein lies the potential for harm.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I can accept that statement too, except that public perceptions follow a very different standard than legal arguments. Therein lies the potential for harm.

And I agree with you on public perception.

But public perception cannot be changed if even the educated and logical ones amongst us refuse to follow basic evidentiary standards for making such serious allegations against the Army, and, furthermore, not providing any yardstick for what exactly they need to convince them that the Army is not involved.

I know which side you’re on in this issue, but I hope your logical and rational side will recognize that this ‘Army is involved’ is a self sustaining argument that just continues to perpetuate because so many accept gossip and speculation as credible evidence.

At what point will those (elected representatives) being accused of bowing to Army diktat be held accountable for not being transparent about their motives?

If the PTI is being coerced by the Army, then name and shame them or resign. Imran Khan has enough popular support that such a move would not only limit any potential blowback by the Army, but likely increase IK’s support base.

 

[VCheng]

And I agree with you on public perception.

But public perception cannot be changed if even the educated and logical ones amongst us refuse to follow basic evidentiary standards for making such serious allegations against the Army, and, furthermore, not providing any yardstick for what exactly they need to convince them that the Army is not involved.

I know which side you’re on in this issue, but I hope your logical and rational side will recognize that this ‘Army is involved’ is a self sustaining argument that just continues to perpetuate because so many accept gossip and speculation as credible evidence.

At what point will those (elected representatives) being accused of bowing to Army diktat be held accountable for not being transparent about their motives?

If the PTI is being coerced by the Army, then name and shame them or resign. Imran Khan has enough popular support that such a move would not only limit any potential blowback by the Army, but likely increase IK’s support base.

At least I am trying to understand both sides of the issue rather than being content on one side of the fence. It helps me greatly that I am no longer directly affected by such issues, and only secondarily, hence observing from the sidelines is a much more rewarding activity, mostly. The real pity is that we are still discussing such issues nearly three-fourth of a century later, rather than actually resolving them. Just like the energy policy. Or the school curricula. Or a health structure. Or local governments etc. etc.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

At least I am trying to understand both sides of the issue rather than being content on one side of the fence. It helps me greatly that I am no longer directly affected by such issues, and only secondarily, hence observing from the sidelines is a much more rewarding activity, mostly. The real pity is that we are still discussing such issues nearly three-fourth of a century later, rather than actually resolving them. Just like the energy policy. Or the school curricula. Or a health structure. Or local governments etc. etc.

I have no problems with understanding both sides of the issue - but I do have problems with taking the ‘other side’ seriously when it’s almost become the equivalent of arguments with Flat Earthers.

I prefer to look at credible sources and evidence to support a claim, not this ‘everyone knows the Army is involved’ kind of argument. And the reason we’re still fixated on these discussions instead of policy debates is BECAUSE people immediately jump into the ‘Army is responsible’ excuse instead of even trying to hold their elected representatives responsible. The elected representatives have, on their end, found the perfect excuse and scapegoat - blame the Army (anonymously or indirectly) for their own incompetence and therefore keep large degrees of public support despite performing poorly when in government. Yes - the job of the politician is to stay in power at all costs, but the electorate has allowed itself to be manipulated. And of course the Army has blame here - the reason these perceptions are as strong as they are is because of the Army’s direct and indirect interventions in the past. But we can’t continue to cling to the past even as we learn from it.