1LT Ashley I. White-Stumpf - First Female USSOCOM Casualty

[Rafi]

RIP Young lady.

Ours not to reason why, ours but to do and die.

For Soldiers everywhere.

 

[Psychic]

I am fully a supporter of equal opportunity to all. But I am totally against enforced equal results (be it gender, race or whatever intrinsic identity separator etc).

Men naturally as a group are better at some things and women are better at other things. Forcibly saying they should be equally good as a whole population etc at some activity is extremely self defeating and destructive. Take the hospital/medical industry for example...women naturally often make much better doctors, nurses etc in quite a number of fields when as close to equal opportunity is given...so intervening to "balance" where something is "male-dominant" means we should intervene to "balance" where its "female-dominant" as well? I think not given amount of social engineering and long term consequences we as a species still do not understand.

With equal opportunity (under singular standard where applicable) all those people (of either group) that "overlap" or are anomalies in some regard for some endeavour get full access to realise their potential like any other.....and not with some undue (and even essentially immoral), likely unforseen massive cost imposed on rest of society. I think its the ideal trade off and largely achieved in western countries.

Unfortunately the tendency (esp on the left/liberal side) now is not for rational debate as to what is achieved and what needs to be improved etc (with cold hard numbers)..which lends towards equal opportunity as the ideal......but rather change for change sake (which inevitably leans toward enforced equal result as the ideal...since that presents a much further away finish line and potential for same optics of blame game/unfairness to pretty much eternally strive against).

@Desert Fox @OsmanAli98 @Psychic @Metanoia @LeGenD @Indus Pakistan @django

Physical standards for females are much more relaxed compared to men---That speaks for itself
https://www.military.com/military-f...tness-requirements/usmc-physical-fitness-test
15 second arm hang or whatever the joke it is for females...
So much for equality.

Where will you get the testosterone? Inject it with syringes like those ugly female body builders (BTW bodybuilding and soldiering are two completely different things)

An average male will always be physically stronger, tougher and braver than an average female---hence more suitable for combat.
There is a reason why only a handful of girls achieve the physical standards which almost every boy can achieve.

@Desert Fox @django

 

[Nilgiri]

Physical standards for females are much more relaxed compared to men---That speaks for itself
https://www.military.com/military-f...tness-requirements/usmc-physical-fitness-test
So much for equality.

Where will you get the testosterone? Inject it with syringes like those ugly female body builders (BTW bodybuilding and soldiering are two completely different things)

An average male will always be physically stronger, tougher and braver than an average female---hence more suitable for combat.
There is a reason why only a handful of girls achieve the physical standards which almost every boy can achieve.

@Desert Fox @django

Yep and then you have to also factor in actual performance under combat stress etc (stuff training can not really replicate), esp for frontline. So lot of unbiased study needed there too tbh...but if we are already making training/selection standards different for women...fat chance of doing adequate, neutral across the board study that is necessary....because you have already started a high dosage of "enforced equal results" over "equal opportunity"....which in my opinion is very dangerous long term for a military where you have to be as unbiased on people, materials, tech, integration etc etc as possible.

 

[Psychic]

Yep and then you have to also factor in actual performance under combat stress etc (stuff training can not really replicate), esp for frontline.

People here also need to understand that while physical strength is also necessary for combat, it does not mean that a bodybuilder will be a better soldier than a lean guy---courage, motivation, steadfastness, unwavering nerve while under fire and the will to risk one's own life and limbs is something which cannot be replicated by cross-fit gyms frequented by women who take whey shakes and half a dozen eggs in the morning with good sleep and protein rich diet.
Most people will surely present the videos of female athletes lifting weights as their argument when it is clear as broad daylight that soldiering=/=bodybuilding.

Sure there will always be women who may be stronger/fitter than an average man (usually athletes) but put an average man through the same level of training as an average woman and you will see what I mean---The data is available to us online---e.g different physical fitness standards (After all how many female athletes/gym goers will be willing to serve?)

But in one way, the sex difference is stark: Men are physically stronger than women, on average. A study in the Journal of Applied Physiology found that men had an average of 26 lbs. (12 kilograms) more skeletal muscle mass than women. Women also exhibited about 40 percent less upper-body strength and 33 percent less lower-body strength, on average, the study found.

@Desert Fox @django

Women were actively taking Parts in Military conflicts even in the early Islamic Society ( Ref : Battle of Yarmouk ).

They had to take up arms when the Byzantines marched right up their camps after pushing back the entire left flank of Muslim army---They were not front line soldiers, and were not meant to take part in battle---they did fight for a limited time out of sheer desperation.
Them fighting was an exception not the norm.
Women never served on front line---did watering or medic duties. Or came to support their menfolk.

 

[CriticalThought]

People here also need to understand that while physical strength is also necessary for combat, it does not mean that a bodybuilder will be a better soldier than a lean guy---courage, motivation, steadfastness, unwavering nerve while under fire and the will to risk one's own life and limbs is something which cannot be replicated by cross-fit gyms frequented by women who take whey shakes and half a dozen eggs in the morning with good sleep and protein rich diet.
Most people will surely present the videos of female athletes lifting weights as their argument when it is clear as broad daylight that soldiering=/=bodybuilding.

Sure there will always be women who may be stronger/fitter than an average man (usually athletes) but put an average man through the same level of training as an average woman and you will see what I mean---The data is available to us online---e.g different physical fitness standards (After all how many female athletes/gym goers will be willing to serve?)


@Desert Fox @django


They had to take up arms when the Byzantines marched right up their camps after pushing back the entire left flank of Muslim army---They were not front line soldiers, and were not meant to take part in battle---they did fight for a limited time out of sheer desperation.
Them fighting was an exception not the norm.
Women never served on front line---did watering or medic duties. Or came to support their menfolk.

Hey don't get me wrong, I agree with everything you have written above. What I am saying is that 1st Lt Ashley White made a choice, saw it through the grueling train through hard work, and was chosen for action. Her being a woman should not take away anything.

 

[Levina]

Do you have any opinion about female serving in the front line? Or a unit such as CST that operate in conjunction with US SOCOM? Write to me here?

Oh man! Thats such a tempting topic. Give me 3-4 days to reply as im recovering frm an eye injury.
Will return here asap.

 

[Desert Fox]

There is a reason why only a handful of girls achieve the physical standards which almost every boy can achieve.

True. For every physically strong woman who can achieve these physical requirements (which by male standards are bare minimum), there are more are men who can not only achieve but far surpass these standards.

In combat or any emergency situation, you don't want someone who just meets the bare minimum requirements; you want someone who can far surpass, and men will always have the advantage in the physical strength department.

That being said, this woman gave her life for a cause she deemed worthy of putting her life on the line for and credit to her for that.

 

[CriticalThought]

Watching Australian domestic women's cricket. Deliveries in the range of 96 km per hr on a regular basis. Just to give you guys some perspective.

 

[Darwin]

As long as the standards are not relaxed for the role, gender should not matter.
Examples are - tamil tigers had a very effective women fighting force, kurds have akt of women fighters and of course the Israeli army has women in combat roles.

 

[James David]

A few weeks ago, a friend of mine send me a photo, and this is how I start writing this article.

View attachment 529065

It reads

1st Lt. Ashley I. White Stumpf

(Bronze Star) - (Purple Heart)

US Army
KIA 22 October 2011
Kandahar (Possibly misspell), Afghanistan
CST - 2/75 R.R
"Quiet Professionals"

My friend who just got out of the Army, send me this photo and ask me did I think it is genuine. Headstone read 2/75 R.R. Denoted that the unit 1LT Stumpf served is 75th Ranger Regiment.

When I first saw this picture, I ask my friend, why not, but then he come back with a message saying "Yeah, but LT Stumpf was a woman"

as far as I remember, there were 2 women I know had passed the Ranger School, and I do not remember there were any women who actually were inducted into 75th Ranger Regiment, which would make her a part of USSOCOM community.

Then I look at the tombstone, I noticed that it spell Kandahar wrong (It instead spelled Khandahar), and also the TOD (Time of Death) is noted in 2011, which is 2 years before US Army open combat position to women, I immediately thought it was a joke or a fake. But then, for whatever reason, I have decided to look deeper into Lt Stumpf anyway.

1LT Ashley White-Stumpf
View attachment 529070

Born Ashley White, on September 3, 1987 to Robert and Deborah White, a member of Joseph Catholic Church, went to Marlington High School in 2005, Kent State University in 2009, joined ROTC program with Kent States University. Commissioned as 2LT with the Medical Service Corp (MOS 67X) and Completed Medical Services Officer Basic Course at Fort Sam Houston, Texas and the U.S. Army Basic Airborne Course at Fort Benning, GA. Airborne Qualified. She was assigned to C Company, 230 Brigade Support Bn, NC National Guard. Married Captain Jason Stumpf in 2011.

She was Killed in Action (KIA) on October 22, 2011.

Now, nothing suggested anything with the Ranger. But when I dig deeper. I realise the word CST before 2/75 R.R means Cultural Support Team. Which as usual, abusing my security clearance. I started to dig deeper on what CST is all about.

Cultural Support Team

Cultural Support Team is a all female team that mainly attached to the Joint Special Operation Command (JSOC), CST comprise with volunteer from all branch of Military (Army, Navy, Marine, Air Force and so on) And volunteer is put thru a "100 days of hell training" alongside Deployable Ranger and SEAL team member. The Team then spread out with deployment circle with any JSOC deployed special force team, and accompanied them on Mission.

All CST member are Special Operation Capable and Airborne Certified. Can be and did deploy in Direct Action mission in conjunction with Special Force Unit.

CST is created to gather information on otherwise not capable with cultural conflict, SpecOp Team, mainly (and in many case, only) comprise of men, would not be capable to communicate with female they encountered in the field, and while most male these people encountered is head strong, female on the other hand, was proven time and again to be a good source of Information. A CST team deploy with Special Warfare Operator would take advantage on this cultural gap and benefit both US Armed Force and local population.

On the evening of October 22, 2011, LT White-Stumpf was deployed with a Ranger Team in a direct action mission, the team was ambushed and LT White-Stumpf was killed alongside 2 of her Ranger Comrade. Sgt. First Class Kristoffer Domeij (14th Tours) and Pfc. Christopher Horns (1st Tour).

On that, the struggle between CST and their JSOC counterpart is still murky, 8 years on. For the CST, those are 1 year off-deployment, once that year has ended, they were send back to their parental unit, and thus, "losing" the link to JSOC and US Special Force community. On the other hand, soldier on each side would know the difficult they face, and the taboo it offered. For which, even today, with the general acceptation of Female in Front line, Female serving with Special Force is still some kind of Taboo. As my understanding is that some "Old Guard" seems to be hostile about that and don't want to create a "G.I. Jane" Situation, on the other hand, Women that served in the CST themselves would know that they have to earn their spot on the chopper. Which mean as far as it goes, they cannot let their fellow soldier down.

As for me, a former Ranger School alum, This is what I will say to these ladies.

Hoorah, Ranger Leads The Way.

Author : Gary Locke
Captain, US Army, 1999-2006 Ranger School, Airborne School, US Army Intelligence Corp.

More Photo of 1LT Ashley White-Stumpf

View attachment 529066
1LT Ashley Stumpf

View attachment 529067
View attachment 529068

Cadet Ashley White, Kent State University ROTC

View attachment 529069
Night Mission, 1LT Ashley Stumpf

View attachment 529071

View attachment 529073
CAPT Jason Stumpf and 1LT Ashley Stumpf Wedding Day 2011

I am Ranger Qualified but did not serve in the 75th buddy.

With regards to your question, the US Army is a male dominated organization (no matter what those Gender Equality yahoo’s say). There is a big biological difference between the male and female bodies. I am not against with the female counterparts in the army but to simply put it, there are a lot of situations that they simply can't do.

I think they are better off in the support units or maybe join the other branches.

Hooah!!! RLTW!!!

 

[jhungary]

I am Ranger Qualified but did not serve in the 75th buddy.

With regards to your question, the US Army is a male dominated organization (no matter what those Gender Equality yahoo’s say). There is a big biological difference between the male and female bodies. I am not against with the female counterparts in the army but to simply put it, there are a lot of situations that they simply can't do.

I think they are better off in the support units or maybe join the other branches.

Hooah!!! RLTW!!!

Yeah, me too, got my tab, were never with the Ranger. Was gunning for SF but didn't get around for the Q-Course, and wasn't bothered with the Ranger Selection.

I do understand why some men don't think women should be forward deployed, I do see women basically doing a man jobs in war and get shot at just the same, a bullet don't care if you are a man or woman, it will kill you just the same.

Problem is, when people here or outside keep saying "Woman were not in the physical condition to fight as man" My question is, what kind of condition you are looking at? I have had some lazy fat *** in my platoon who can barely do 60 60 60, at the same time, we have female that shot to shit in some ops they have no part in, but they were there all the same, I mean, the traditional "Non-Combatant" roles is pretty much hot in your AO anyway, and we are not talking about getting a super soldier. Why women cannot serve in the frontline role?

I would more inclined to agree with you if women aren't already dying in dove doing the same thing man used to do, driving truck, pulling roadblock and such, I mean, if they can truly stay non-combatant, then yes, I agree with you, but these day, it's hard to separate the front line and the rear, unless we put them back stateside, they will, inevitably, would have responsible to combat.

Oh man! Thats such a tempting topic. Give me 3-4 days to reply as im recovering frm an eye injury.
Will return here asap.

lol, alright, can't wait for your response.