1LT Ashley I. White-Stumpf - First Female USSOCOM Casualty

[jhungary]

Jhungary,
This is fact that women on front line is considered as taboo.The reason is simply natural biological differences.There was a time that women were not considered eligible enough to perform medical operations.Their research work was not taken seriously.Not just in US, women faced many challenges across the globe.There was even a time that women had no share in property.Hence, woman always had to go through struggle to prove herself.
I believe to let women decide that which profession she would like to adopt and which field in life she would like to choose.Same goes with deployment in army.
There is one thing I want to point out: Now a time has come that freedom of woman is going towards destruction.This means, that there was a time when struggle of a woman was genuine and worthy to be echoed.Now, it is crossing natural order.Women should adopt what she finds she could do best but then once again she should keep her biological nature in check.
Regards

well, not being a female, I cannot say for sure what biological difference would make, I do understand what you are talking about tho, but still, not being a female, we can never know, it's like that old question, which hurt more? A kick in the nuts or giving birth to a baby? No one can answer this question because no one can experience both.....

Thing is, times changed, while we see something as black and white before, it may not be the case now. While I do identify myself as a feminist, I am not at all pursuing equal women right blindly. For me, it's a simple maths, you good enough to earn that seat, I don't care if you are a man or a woman, I am more than gladly fight alongside you.

On the other hand, that is not the same as the government would let you try, the definition of letting you try is that you need to go thru what a man go thru and if you failed, you failed. And being part of SOCOM is a prestige and even for a man, it's hard to get in, don't get me wrong, I am not saying we should give free handout to female who want to take a shot at the course, but we need to encourage people about these opportunities, and these type of program is a perfect way to do that. Yet, for whatever reason, the Government doesn't seems too eager to advertise its existence.

In French, if you shed blood with a Frenchmen, you become a Frenchmen, the same should be applies to unit cohesion, if you shed blood doing the same job the Special Force is doing, then you become a special force member. Wasn't that what "Bands of Brothers" supposed to mean?

 

[jhungary]

If they want to. Why not? I have been training with a female PT instructor in my gym and she is so tough that I struggle to accept that she is 'female'. She could whip most guys on the field. When we say women in the military too many people conjure up this frail female. The truth is most who apply and pass the tests are going to be able to do their jobs.

True.

We all kind of become sexiest when we see women in a men dominant world. The question is not whether or not they belong there per se, the question is if they are willing and able and just as good as the next guy, why not? However, in the west, we still yet to come out of the idea of a shell where women should be protected, or that we should expect female act the way of a female.

On the other hand, the new ideas always met resistances when they first appear, which is why I think program like CST is important. Giving them an avenue to try, and isolate the idea of equality. Which mean if it failed, it wouldn't affect much. But in reality, we don't even encourage these people to try, which, for me, I think is just...….(Don't want to say the word here...…)

Our views are probably quite similar in this matter of who gets to serve and in what roles. The military is only a representation of the society that they protect, and hence the roles are modified in the light of changing social mores as well. This is not an easy debate, and certainly one that is far from clearly decided. Take the example of the issues with transgender service members as an indication of just how passionate differing views can get with such debates.

PS: She is buried south of Cleveland, an area that I go to quite often. I will try to stop by and put down a token of gratitude for her service next time I am down there.

Yeah, but sometime these type of thing just wrinkle your brain, and I want to keep my head in top shape lol

Had talked to my wife a few days ago after I decided to do some research on her, being a Swede, she come out all gun blazing and saying this is wrong and we should have let her do that and so on. People generally have extreme idea when we come down to feminism. And most of these people don't know there are better way than just go from 0-100 in 2 seconds.

Yeah, she's buried near Cleveland, I used to live in Akron area and it's also closed to where she buried, I planned to travel back to Philly next year, maybe I will go visit her grave as well.

 

[VCheng]

Yeah, but sometime these type of thing just wrinkle your brain, and I want to keep my head in top shape lol

Had talked to my wife a few days ago after I decided to do some research on her, being a Swede, she come out all gun blazing and saying this is wrong and we should have let her do that and so on. People generally have extreme idea when we come down to feminism. And most of these people don't know there are better way than just go from 0-100 in 2 seconds.

Yeah, she's buried near Cleveland, I used to live in Akron area and it's also closed to where she buried, I planned to travel back to Philly next year, maybe I will go visit her grave as well.

It's a long and complex debate, for sure, and one that will not be settled any time soon.

 

[YeBeWarned]

@jhungary Thanks for the tag, In my non Militaristic opinion that Women can serve in the front line, but should they is open to discussion, throughout human history Women were actively taking Parts in Military conflicts even in the early Islamic Society ( Ref : Battle of Yarmouk ). but are they mentally and Physically up for the task is a crucial thing, plus we can not neglect the fact about taking war prisoners specially in War against Terror . They wont be caring for Geneva Convention . I personally don't see Women to be any less to serve in any position where man could . Women can be tough as nails and as much as patriots as man to serve/fight/die for their homeland .

 

[Nilgiri]

@Levina @AUSTERLITZ @James Jaevid @Davos @waz @Slav Defence @Signalian @Nilgiri @Starlord @WebMaster @VCheng

Do you have any opinion about female serving in the front line? Or a unit such as CST that operate in conjunction with US SOCOM? Write to me here?

RIP to Ms. Stumpf first of all. Brave woman no doubt.

As for larger convo, I personally have no issue towards it...as long as its the exact same criteria used for selection, training, final graduation, continued training etc for all males and females. (This goes for any profession too btw).

Equal opportunity for all, so I dont care about gender (or any other identity marker)....but exact same rubric for all (otherwise you are just admitting difference exists that needs some form of cushioned hand holding for emotion end goals rather than facts).

But right now I find there are dbl standards used from early on to fulfil some "quota" for women aiming for frontline duty etc....and I believe that to be self-defeating and even dangerous long term....given existing standards are there through the process for a reason (and if you are going to lower for one gender, why not lower for all genders?)

This concept applies to other endeavours too just as much, take Chess for example...there is proliferation of all kind of titles (that I now cannot keep track of) that are exclusive just for females (WGM, WIM, WCM , WFM etc etc)...rather than just have equivalent standardised titles (GM, IM) for everyone. In the end it is quite patronising and self-defeating to me...(and the best woman chess player ever in history... agrees).

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Question is, are women as a whole not talking at one or two exceptions, are capable of mentally absorbing the brunt of enemy offensives in the frontline where they will be shelled for hours of 155mm/300mm artillery/MLRS along with 120mm mortar barrage and right after that, can still have even greater juice mentally to face wave after wave offensive of enemy, backed by CAS and tanks or more tactical airstrikes and artillery strikes?

This is what yr gonna get on the frontlines not at one or two occasions but on permanent basis......Even the strongest of the strong men in these scenarios survive both mentally and physically to successfully defend their OP or position.

Frontline combat has far more dangerous scenarios, but this is just one of them. Whenever we discuss something, we need first to thoroughly examine every aspect from every angle by keeping the worst case scenario in mind!

 

[jhungary]

@jhungary Thanks for the tag, In my non Militaristic opinion that Women can serve in the front line, but should they is open to discussion, throughout human history Women were actively taking Parts in Military conflicts even in the early Islamic Society ( Ref : Battle of Yarmouk ). but are they mentally and Physically up for the task is a crucial thing, plus we can not neglect the fact about taking war prisoners specially in War against Terror . They wont be caring for Geneva Convention . I personally don't see Women to be any less to serve in any position where man could . Women can be tough as nails and as much as patriots as man to serve/fight/die for their homeland .

Problem as far as I see is. Even before the combat role lift in 2013 (or earlier for other countries) there are already women killed in combat. The modern day war sees the shift in a traditional sense of "Frontline" it's not as clear cut as it used to be, where in WW2 or Korea, we can draw a literal line and say "Behind this is ours, and beyond this is all enemies" today, frontline can be basically everywhere. Everywhere you go, you have a equal chance of getting shot and killed. Which mean by today standard, rear is no longer safe and as long as you have combat or non-combat personnel in theatre, it is going to be fair game as well.

So, unless we put the women back at home, as long as they ride into war, chances are they are going to have the same risk of getting shot at and killed. If this is the case, why not take advantage of the female and use them directly in combat zone.

RIP to Ms. Stumpf first of all. Brave woman no doubt.

As for larger convo, I personally have no issue towards it...as long as its the exact same criteria used for selection, training, final graduation, continued training etc for all males and females. (This goes for any profession too btw).

Equal opportunity for all, so I dont care about gender (or any other identity marker)....but exact same rubric for all (otherwise you are just admitting difference exists that needs some form of cushioned hand holding for emotion end goals rather than facts).

But right now I find there are dbl standards used from early on to fulfil some "quota" for women aiming for frontline duty etc....and I believe that to be self-defeating and even dangerous long term....given existing standards are there through the process for a reason (and if you are going to lower for one gender, why not lower for all genders?)

This concept applies to other endeavours too just as much, take Chess for example...there is proliferation of all kind of titles (that I now cannot keep track of) that are exclusive just for females (WGM, WIM, WCM , WFM etc etc)...rather than just have equivalent standardised titles (GM, IM) for everyone. In the end it is quite patronising and self-defeating to me...(and the best woman chess player ever in history... agrees).

I think this is an act within reason.

Why we need to separate the two stream, like WAFL or WNBA or any sort of women sport competition? Can we just not put the label up and use AFL (Which is an Australian sport, kind of like rugby) or NBA or so on and let the viewer decide whether or not they want to watch when they are female instead of the old thing?

Problem is, that question divide even feminist. While we are going to get a new set of universe with female in lead passing over the old set which was male dominated, however, true equality is based not with two separate world, but instead encompass them in the single universe. The act of separation in itself is a discrimination toward women.

In the end, one must ask, is it ever going to have true equality?

 

[Nilgiri]

In the end, one must ask, is it ever going to have true equality?

I am fully a supporter of equal opportunity to all. But I am totally against enforced equal results (be it gender, race or whatever intrinsic identity separator etc).

Men naturally as a group are better at some things and women are better at other things. Forcibly saying they should be equally good as a whole population etc at some activity is extremely self defeating and destructive. Take the hospital/medical industry for example...women naturally often make much better doctors, nurses etc in quite a number of fields when as close to equal opportunity is given...so intervening to "balance" where something is "male-dominant" means we should intervene to "balance" where its "female-dominant" as well? I think not given amount of social engineering and long term consequences we as a species still do not understand.

With equal opportunity (under singular standard where applicable) all those people (of either group) that "overlap" or are anomalies in some regard for some endeavour get full access to realise their potential like any other.....and not with some undue (and even essentially immoral), likely unforseen massive cost imposed on rest of society. I think its the ideal trade off and largely achieved in western countries.

Unfortunately the tendency (esp on the left/liberal side) now is not for rational debate as to what is achieved and what needs to be improved etc (with cold hard numbers)..which lends towards equal opportunity as the ideal......but rather change for change sake (which inevitably leans toward enforced equal result as the ideal...since that presents a much further away finish line and potential for same optics of blame game/unfairness to pretty much eternally strive against).

@Desert Fox @OsmanAli98 @Psychic @Metanoia @LeGenD @Indus Pakistan @django

 

[jhungary]

@Slav Defence @waz

Can you clean this thread up so only on topic discussion is allowed here?

I didn't spend 2 days collecting data and information to say US force is occupying lying bastard of a force, I want to discuss gender equality here, not US national policy.

Thank You

 

[CriticalThought]

Jhungary,
This is fact that women in front line is considered as taboo.The reason is simply natural biological differences.There was a time that women were not considered eligible enough to perform medical operations.Their research work was not taken seriously.Not just in US, women faced many challenges across the globe.There was even a time that women had no share in property.Hence, woman always had to go through struggle to prove herself.
I believe to let women decide that which profession they would like to adopt and which field in life they would like to choose.Same goes with deployment in army.
There is one thing I want to point out: Now a time has come that freedom of woman is going towards destruction.This means, that there was a time when struggle of a woman was genuine and worthy to be echoed.Now, it is crossing natural order.Woman should adopt what she finds she could do best but then once again she should keep her biological nature in check.One more fact: Woman in past had participated in war but only when no choice was left.Hence, it is not new for women to be engaged in combat but once again she should be assigned where she can find herself serving best.
Regards

It is an utter fallacy that women can't do strenuous, hard work, or put their lives at risk. I see to the contrary every single day in Sydney. I see sturdy women covered in dust coming back from a long day's work in the construction industry. I have seen women plumbers. There are women ship hands throwing lassos from ferries and running about to tie up the ship. Their build, their walking style, the way they carry themselves, it exudes confidence and strength. At the gym, I see women doing amazing workouts that stresses strength, endurance, and power reserves.

It is true that with training a man will always be better than a woman when it comes to strength, endurance, and power. But it doesn't mean that women can't participate in these areas. The same is true for combat.

That said, there is a dark side to all of this. An article some months ago in BBC talked about the effects of contraceptive pills on women's psychology. It seems there are two types of pills: the ones that cause increase of female hormones, and ones that cause increase of male hormones. When mothers take contraceptives that increase the amounts of male hormones, their daughters show increased patters on manly behavior. And when they take pills that increase female hormones, female characteristics are increased. So maybe this is the reason why women in Pakistan cannot compete with these hardened, manly women that I see every day. But it would be foolish for us to underestimate what a Western woman can achieve. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that 1st Lt. Ashley White was a strength to her team and someone they could rely on when the bullets were flying.

 

[YeBeWarned]

Problem as far as I see is. Even before the combat role lift in 2013 (or earlier for other countries) there are already women killed in combat. The modern day war sees the shift in a traditional sense of "Frontline" it's not as clear cut as it used to be, where in WW2 or Korea, we can draw a literal line and say "Behind this is ours, and beyond this is all enemies" today, frontline can be basically everywhere. Everywhere you go, you have a equal chance of getting shot and killed. Which mean by today standard, rear is no longer safe and as long as you have combat or non-combat personnel in theatre, it is going to be fair game as well.

So, unless we put the women back at home, as long as they ride into war, chances are they are going to have the same risk of getting shot at and killed. If this is the case, why not take advantage of the female and use them directly in combat zone.

I agree with you more on this Sir .

 

[Slav Defence]

It is an utter fallacy that women can't do strenuous, hard work, or put their lives at risk. I see to the contrary every single day in Sydney. I see sturdy women covered in dust coming back from a long day's work in the construction industry. I have seen women plumbers. There are women ship hands throwing lassos from ferries and running about to tie up the ship. Their build, their walking style, the way they carry themselves, it exudes confidence and strength. At the gym, I see women doing amazing workouts that stresses strength, endurance, and power reserves.

It is true that with training a man will always be better than a woman when it comes to strength, endurance, and power. But it doesn't mean that women can't participate in these areas. The same is true for combat.

That said, there is a dark side to all of this. An article some months ago in BBC talked about the effects of contraceptive pills on women's psychology. It seems there are two types of pills: the ones that cause increase of female hormones, and ones that cause increase of male hormones. When mothers take contraceptives that increase the amounts of male hormones, their daughters show increased patters on manly behavior. And when they take pills that increase female hormones, female characteristics are increased. So maybe this is the reason why women in Pakistan cannot compete with these hardened, manly women that I see every day. But it would be foolish for us to underestimate what a Western woman can achieve. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that 1st Lt. Ashley White was a strength to her team and someone they could rely on when the bullets were flying.

Comparison of Pakistani females with the females of other countries?
What do you know about Pakistani women? What do you know? Women in Pakistan do everything to survive like women in any other region.They are labors, farmers, teachers, doctors, scientist, engineer, army women, biologist, dentists, pilots, analysts, software engineers.A woman in Pakistan is more socially responsible.She takes care of her children and family and plan her life accordingly.Taking divorce is also not easy in Pakistan and in many families joint family system causes women to keep everything in check.
Just few days ago, a police woman Stella was awarded medal for defending Chinese counslate during terrorist attack.We have striking other examples of female survivors and warriors and those who are struggling through everyday life and facing different challenges.
So, by just squatting at your seat do not judge women's strength across the globe.Women are biologically different and are meant to take care of children and family.This is what nature and biology teaches us.She has strength four times less than males.Her ca+, mg+ and other content are four times more less as compare to men.Her morphology is different than males. Scientifically, her jaw bone is weaker than males.Women are psychologically more complicated due to hormonal regulations throughout life.Yes, women are tough and they they have more stamina and can bear burden and hard-working but what this stress gives her?
Stress not only cause problem with women but with her entire generation as genetics play a vital role in case of expressions and upon certain stress.It is also scientific fact that chances of abnormal birth increases due to exposure of stress at different ages.Men don't harbor children inside them, got it?
Hence, government should provide more facilities to women and should pay attention upon womens' education and professional training so that she could groom her children better.
If some women want to join tough professions then should be allowed to but again she should be trained and be able to pass the training test.She should be able to respond to stress.
Let women decide her capability, don't be to judgemental.
Regards

 

[CriticalThought]

Comparison of Pakistani females with the females of other countries?
What do you know about Pakistani women? What do you know? Women in Pakistan do everything to survive like women in any other region.They are labors, farmers, teachers, doctors, scientist, engineer, army women, biologist, dentists, piolets, analysts, software engineers.A women in Pakistan is more socially responsible.She takes care of her children and family and plan her life accordingly.Taking divorce is also not easy in Pakistan and in many families joint family system causes women to keep everything in check.
Just few days ago, a police woman Stella was awarded medal for defending Chinese counselate during terrorist attack.We have striking other examples of female survivors and warriors and those who are struggling through everyday life and facing different challenges.
So, by just squatting at your seat do not judge women's strength across the globe.Women are biologically different and are meant to take care of children and family.This is what nature and biology teaches us.She has strength four times less than males.Her ca+, mg+ and other content are four times more less as compare to men.Her morphology is different than males.Scientifcally her jaw bone is weaker than males.Women are psychologically more complicated due to hormonal regulations throughout life.
Stress not only cause problem with women but with her entire generation as genetics play a vital role in case of expressions and upon certain stress.It is also scientific fact that chances of abnormal birth increases due to exposure of stress at different ages.Men don't harbor children inside them, got it?
Hence, government should provide more facilities to women and put more responsibilities , should pay attention upon womens' education and professional training so that she could groom her children better.
If some women want to join tough professions then should be allowed to but again she should be trained and be able to pass the training test.She should be able to respond to stress.
Let women decide her capability, don't be to judgemental.
Regards

You are discounting the effects that hormonal imbalances in mother's womb can have. Western society is very, very different not just because of ideals, but also because they have been constantly modifying biological functions. I have seen ordinary 5 ft 5 in girls doing this with 40 kg of weight

That policewoman in the Chinese debacle was nothing but a advertisement and feel good. Pakistani women cannot compare with their Western counterparts.

 

[Slav Defence]

You are discounting the effects that hormonal imbalances in mother's womb can have. Western society is very, very different not just because of ideals, but also because they have been constantly modifying biological functions. I have seen ordinary 5 ft 5 in girls doing this with 40 kg of weight

That policewoman in the Chinese debacle was nothing but a advertisement and feel good. Pakistani women cannot compare with their Western counterparts.

I can't stop laughing.So, west has "modified" women's biological function
What they do to them? Their calcium content has raised? Do they lack womb and give birth in vitro?
Oh wait a minute!! I guess ZW system must be implanted in women or probably men becomes pregnant in west
I told you not to squat.You didn't listened.Women across the globe have same strength and weaknesses. That is why EU/US/Canada is trying so hard to give women protection.Infact industrialization has turned out to be jinxed for women since she has to say goodbye to luxirious life.Children with down syndrome, Turner syndrome, Klienfleter's syndrome, autism and other abnormalities are born in those countries whom you worship.Same goes in Asian region.
Infact, Breast cancer in past raised into alarming levels because cigarette companies in west wanted their products to be sold regardless of sexes.
That is why governments across the globe are protective regarding women and their rights.
So please, let women decide what they want.
Regards

 

[Nilgiri]

So please, let women decide what they want.

Exactly, equal opportunity.