1971 facts from fiction

[Neo]

Some more facts in motion...

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[Arrow]

I couldn't care less what Bangladeshi's have to say...as far as I'm concerned they were traitors.
Lets also hear what they've to say about India now..

If this is how you approach historical records, then a lot is left to be said about the accuracy of what you say on this matter!

Irrespective of what the Bangladeshis say about India now, the facts of '71 wont disappear.

You call them traitors- what should they call you? Their fellow citizens who are yet to acknowledge what they suffered under your own country's forces!

 

[Arrow]

My take on this is, the side that wins the war always writes the history about it and everyone gladly stands by them, accepting whatever that side has to say.

Same thing happened in this case, because Bangladesh came in to being, the world community accepted whatever version of the war (which meant maligning Pakistan Army troops to exaggerated lengths) Bengalis wanted to portray.

Now, however, its a completely different story as more independant researchers try to gaudge what really happened. Essentially, both sides were equally responsible for what occurred in '71.

You can believe this. But its basically the same as holocaust denial.

I agree that its not easy for any pakistani to admit what their own army did in 71 and the incidents of the time, but there are a variety of excellent books on the topic written by pakistanis- as patriotic as you and as dismayed at what occurred.

I know of acquaintances who went to Bangladesh in 71- who saw the depredations of your army & the local Bihari Muslim militia first hand.

It did occur and what you should think of is to accept the tragedy, apologise to Bangladesh and move on.

Not for India's sake but they were your fellow Muslims, not all the victims were Hindus.

 

[sigatoka]

You can believe this. But its basically the same as holocaust denial.

I agree that its not easy for any pakistani to admit what their own army did in 71 and the incidents of the time, but there are a variety of excellent books on the topic written by pakistanis- as patriotic as you and as dismayed at what occurred.

That day will come when the Indian army stops raping woman, and killing civilians in Kashmir and allows a vote of independance as per the U.N. resolution.

I understand it is very difficult for India.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Will you at least get your facts straight?!?!

There will be NO VOTE according to any UNSCR for Kashmire. They've ALL been expired!

 

[Samudra]

That day will come when the Indian army stops raping woman, and killing civilians in Kashmir and allows a vote of independance as per the U.N. resolution.

I understand it is very difficult for India.

How can somebody stop doing something when they are'nt doing it ?
It is very difficult indeed.

:army:

 

[Arrow]

That day will come when the Indian army stops raping woman, and killing civilians in Kashmir and allows a vote of independance as per the U.N. resolution.

Thank you for your propoganda, but trust me its amusing when I see your outrage over a simple basic fact- that if my state & people had even 3% engaged in terrorism, the IA would be parked outside my house. I wouldnt resent it. The fact is that the PA conducted mass depredation with the razakars in WB, and unlike India, they neither had rule of law or NCHR etc to monitor them & unfortunately, your senior leadership- Yahya, Ayub, Niazi behaved in a very unbecoming manner. Such is not the case with India. Do you see Muslim Kashmiris in mass exodus to the rest of India? Hardly. Heck, there are tourists there now.

The so called insurgency is limited to the Valley & a few areas- Srinagar being the biggest groan zone. Rest dont give a damn.

Now coming to the original point- you may call Bang's traitors- but note, most Indians dont call Kashmiris as such..we are still seeking settlement even with the most odious Geelani types..see that is the thing Pakistan is yet to learn - at the end of the day, even the most hardened enemy can be your friend if you reason it out...instead y'all kicked Mujib down. That man was an enthusiastic Pakistani!

Coming to the UN resolutions, well if Pakistan reattaches whatever it snuck off from Azad Kashmir and restores the original ethnic balance, then the conditions for the resolution are met. Otherwise, they are invalid.

I understand it is very difficult for India.

Not at all! Its not at all difficult for India!

Lets see, with Kashmir, NE & assorted rabble here & there- India has grown at 7% annually, with nary a wince. Why should India bother?

The COIN strategy is money, maccadam, manpower.

Maccadam= infrastructure.

Now tell me, India doesnt lack all three, Pakistan wont wage war with India over Kashmir...its but a matter of time, before the ordinary Kashmiri separatist rolls over..

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

All i can say to ostriches is that in 1971, India was defeated and Pakistan won and it was 93000 Chinese who were made prisoners!

And the present Bangladeshis raped the Pakistanis.

Now, if that makes people happy, I have served humanity and the CBMs.

 

[sigatoka]

1. Thank you for your propoganda,

2. The so called insurgency is limited to the Valley & a few areas- Srinagar being the biggest groan zone.

3. Now coming to the original point- you may call Bang's traitors- but note, most Indians dont call Kashmiris as such..

4. Coming to the UN resolutions, well if Pakistan reattaches whatever it snuck off from Azad Kashmir and restores the original ethnic balance, then the conditions for the resolution are met. Otherwise, they are invalid.

5. Now tell me, India doesnt lack all three, Pakistan wont wage war with India over Kashmir...

6. its but a matter of time, before the ordinary Kashmiri separatist rolls over..

1. And what are you engaging in right now?

2. True, then why the huge military presense there?

3. True, Indians are just content with unleashing the Indian army on the Kashmiri people.

4. Anything but implement the resolution huh?

5. Pak. economy is growing as rapidly as India's, therefore your point about India's economic perfomance is irrelevant.

6. Could it be possible that your trusty crystal ball is due for service?

 

[Spring Onion]

Will you at least get your facts straight?!?!

There will be NO VOTE according to any UNSCR for Kashmire. They've ALL been expired!

Sir will you kindly eleborate according to which rule UN resolution over Kashmire had been ??

 

[blain2]

Thank you for your propoganda, but trust me its amusing when I see your outrage over a simple basic fact- that if my state & people had even 3% engaged in terrorism, the IA would be parked outside my house. I wouldnt resent it. The fact is that the PA conducted mass depredation with the razakars in WB, and unlike India, they neither had rule of law or NCHR etc to monitor them & unfortunately, your senior leadership- Yahya, Ayub, Niazi behaved in a very unbecoming manner. Such is not the case with India. Do you see Muslim Kashmiris in mass exodus to the rest of India? Hardly. Heck, there are tourists there now.

This is not because Indian Army or your government has been much more benevolent than the Pakistanis in 1971 mind you. Times are different and as such there is only so much that you can do with force before the whole world comes down on you. The Internet and all of the other tools that are at the disposal of each side in a conflict are immense and provide the checks that did not exist in the 70s and 80s (the IA and the paramilitaries have plenty of blood on their hands especially when they came down very hard post 87 on the people in Indian Kashmir...we have people who left and have not gone back). Again the difference was that when the Indian crackdown happened, no foreign media was allowed in whereas until the start of war in EP, foreign media was reporting out of Dhaka. So not as much information is available on the Indian rapes and pillaging as what came to be known about EP (which later on went through the rule of multiplication and ended up being casualties and rapes in the millions).

The so called insurgency is limited to the Valley & a few areas- Srinagar being the biggest groan zone. Rest dont give a damn.

Rest do not have to give a damn because at this time the insurgency is at its lowest thanks to Pervez Musharraf! When the insurgency is ratchetted up a bit, life will come to a standstill in most of the Indian Kashmir. That is a fact and no matter what you say, it cannot be denied. IA cannot and will not be able to stop the flow of the people coming over from across the border if Pakistani government allows it to happen.

Now coming to the original point- you may call Bang's traitors- but note, most Indians dont call Kashmiris as such..we are still seeking settlement even with the most odious Geelani types..see that is the thing Pakistan is yet to learn - at the end of the day, even the most hardened enemy can be your friend if you reason it out...instead y'all kicked Mujib down. That man was an enthusiastic Pakistani!

I am a Pakistani yet I do not consider Bangladeshis traitors...they did what they had to do and unfortunately that took them on a divergent path from the rest of West Pakistan. However there are plenty of Indians who not only consider the Kashmiris as traitors but also the entire Muslim population as the dangerous fifth column.

Mujeeb was never an *enthusiastic* Pakistani. If there was anyone sane in that entire madness, it was Yahya. Otherwise all of the others including Indra, Mujeeb and Bhutto all had their own agendas which they were pushing. Yahya offered Mujeeb to come and talk terms and asked him not to raise the slogan of *bangladesh* amongst the people and Mujeeb gave him his word but then went back on it. There is plenty more to it than what I can post here in a few lines...perhaps at a later time we can discuss this.

Now coming back to talking...the reason that Kashmiris took up the gun was because Indians did not listen to what they had to say. Kashmiris are sick of Pakistan but they are even sicker of Indians wagging their batons at them. They'd rather say "screw you" to both Indians and Pakistanis and be on their merry way (Pakistan would be ok with this btw), however the Indians talk the talk about having *talks* yet they know the writing on the wall, which is that Kashmiris can be placated for a while with economic upliftment etc., but in the end want to separate themselves from India..so no matter what India does, its simply delaying the inevitable in my opinion.

matter of time, before the ordinary Kashmiri separatist rolls over..

Rather simplistic interpretation of events given the fact that there is a resurgence in all movements where Muslims are perceived to be on the receiving end of the equation. Kashmiri liberation/insurgency is about to get really hot if Indians stick to their age old "integral part" blah blah.

 

[TexasJohn]

Rest do not have to give a damn because at this time the insurgency is at its lowest thanks to Pervez Musharraf! When the insurgency is ratchetted up a bit, life will come to a standstill in most of the Indian Kashmir. That is a fact and no matter what you say, it cannot be denied. IA cannot and will not be able to stop the flow of the people coming over from across the border if Pakistani government allows it to happen.

Just a moment there. Is this now a acknowlegement that the Govt. of Pakistan can "ratchet" up or down the insurgency?? You just got through saying the insurgency was from the people themselves, and not supported by the GoP.

 

[blain2]

Just a moment there. Is this now a acknowlegement that the Govt. of Pakistan can "ratchet" up or down the insurgency?? You just got through saying the insurgency was from the people themselves, and not supported by the GoP.

Do I look like the spokesperson for the GoP to you? :smile: Can you deny that Indians do not support anti-Pakistan activity and other acts of terrorism in Baluchistan and other Pakistani cities? Why do you think the Indians have been trying to butt into the current situation in Balochistan? Its laughable that they suggest restraint to Pakistan while their own actions in kashmir make them absolute hypocrites.

Pakistan rightfully supports the Kashmiri aspirations to be independent. While it may be politically incorrect to say so from an Indian Point of view, it is a fact and known to the world.

I think you know where I am going with this.

 

[blain2]

All i can say to ostriches is that in 1971, India was defeated and Pakistan won and it was 93000 Chinese who were made prisoners!

And the present Bangladeshis raped the Pakistanis.

Now, if that makes people happy, I have served humanity and the CBMs.

I hope the 93000 were not all Chinese army men as some would like to believe.

 

[TexasJohn]

Do I look like the spokesperson for the GoP to you? :smile: Can you deny that Indians do not support anti-Pakistan activity and other acts of terrorism in Baluchistan and other Pakistani cities? Why do you think the Indians have been trying to butt into the current situation in Balochistan? Its laughable that they suggest restraint to Pakistan while their own actions in kashmir make them absolute hypocrites.

Pakistan rightfully supports the Kashmiri aspirations to be independent. While it may be politically incorrect to say so from an Indian Point of view, it is a fact and known to the world.

I think you know where I am going with this.

No you do not look like a spokesperson . I was just going by your own comment. I think you guys ( India & Pakistan) do it to yourselves. Do you have instances of anti-Pakistan activities you know of for sure. And I don't mean " the hidden hand" or the "evil eye" story I read about all the time. I would not put it past India either. I think it's a tit-for-tat thing. I am looking for concrete examples.