1904 China map admits Paracel, Spratly not Chinese territory

[asean_2015]

Why you are so keen on showing the maps again and again? Do you mean if a place was shown in your ancient map, the place would magically become yours? Your ancestors must have gotten Harry Potter's wand.

I only suppose that a national map is a strong evidence of the sovereignty of that country. If you look at the map 1904, it clearly shows that Hainan island belongs to China. Or do you mean although Hainan island was in the national map of China, it belonged to Vietnam or Philippine?

 

[Đảo Bạch Long Vỹ]

Why you are so keen on showing the maps again and again? Do you mean if a place was shown in your ancient map, the place would magically become yours? Your ancestors must have gotten Harry Potter's wand.

I think that "ancient map" is also your "evidence". The difference is we have real maps and you have fantasy maps in your dream.

Of course China grabs islands.... we grab it so they don't fall into the hands of inferior nations like yours. We grab it so our fisherman can continue fishing there as we did for hundreds of years

You went fishing there but we didn't?

 

[laman12345]

Vietnam only can big talk in front of a monitor

 

[Đảo Bạch Long Vỹ]

Vietnam only can big talk in front of a monitor

And in international court if china ever dares to go there to solve the problem.

 

[lilo123]

Vietnam only can big talk in front of a monitor

So you want to start a war instead and let people die ? Don't you people see that being aggressive is pointless ?

 

[asean_2015]

Vietnam only can big talk in front of a monitor

This means you did not know or did not hear the international conferences or workshops about the south china sea. For example First International Workshop

 

[harryhayward]

"named Paracels before Paracels was used to refer to China's Xisha Islands later in the history"

This is what an ashame. Paracels is not refer to China, it is refer to Vietnam. The King of Vietnam bring troop to the Islands hundred of years ago. There is ancient maps from European navigators state that Paracels belong to Vietnam, I will post the evidence here.

Can you give evidence that Paracels refer to China? I am pretty sure that you cant, cos Paracels never belong to China. But I can find, cos it is belong to Vietnam

"I don't care who you are or what you say. But if you're not an American citizen you should change one of your flag otherwise others will perceived you speak on American's perspectives."

When I choose the flag, the forum ask me what language I use and where I live, both of my choices are correct so the way you state seem illogical here.

Next year I can become US citizen. But it does not a matter if I am Amecian or not, this is the freedom of speed and arguement. I live in the US for 12 years and of course I consider it is very important for me.

How do you understand the word "speak for US people" who is people here? there are about 400mil people in the US and not all people have the same opinion. I cant agree with your statement

 

[Martian2]

I suggest you guys worry less about some old maps and start looking at the new Chinese military installations. They are a lot more interesting and relevant in a real war.

China builds its military infrastructure in the South China Sea

AFP/Getty Images - A newly constructed radar dome on Chinese-controlled Subi Reef, around 15 nautical miles northwest of the Philippine-controlled Pag-asa Islands on the disputed Spratly Islands.

 

[harryhayward]

1635 Netherlands:

This figure, the top of the long strip Note Doa Javaquero, right indicate Pracel, on the left coast of Vietnam on Pulo S Polo, Pulo Cotan, Lan tam, a long strip at the bottom of Pulo Citi

1680 Netherlands:

Long strip superscript Pracel, On the left labeled Pulo Cham, Strip form began to close to Vietnam coast , Nansha Islands in the lower right corner of display.

1747 United Kingdom:

The long rectangular label of Shoal of Pracel, The top right of a few small islands marked as "the Triangle", Xisha Islands from a long strip of "Paracels" separation, independent of an archipelago

1750 United Kingdom:

Long strip marked with "Pracel its upper right is the separation of a separate Islands labeled" of Li Ochiali

1775 United Kingdom:

Long strip marked with "Pracel its upper right is the separation of a separate Islands labeled" of Li Ochiali

1812 United Kingdom:

Long strip marked with "Pracel its upper right is the separation of a separate Islands labeled" Amphitrite, Dry Lime Shoali


1851 United Kingdom:

This diagram Note North Sh (oa) l, Paracels, Amphitrite Is, Crescent, Discovery Shoal, Bombay Shoal, Macclesfield Bank, Scarborough Shoal and other words, the various reefs group label has basically modern naming. a very modern map began on the map to remove the long strip, But the “Paracels” this name transferred to now the real xisha islands.

Western understanding of the China Sea is the ancient Chinese map in the transmission of information, Once the central Vietnam coast not far from some of the shoals, sandbars painted a long strip, And called Parcel / Pracel (s) / Paracels, But Until 1747, they discovered that the Xisha Islands of China, And began to draw in the upper right corner of the long strip of the Xisha Islands, and gave several different names, Later, a very modern (for example ,1851 United Kingdom) map began on the map to remove the long strip, But the “Paracels” this name transferred to now the real xisha islands.

《The Complete Map of Unified Great Nam》,Longitude point of view, these two Islands is too close to the coast of Vietnam, After all, this time in the 19th century, other territories in Vietnam is probably more accurately described why such a big difference of the two Islands? Latitude and Islands and the distribution of the shape difference is also great, from the map, the two Islands together to form a long strip, but in fact the Paracel Islands and Spratly Islands are far apart, the distribution is not a long strip, At this time no matter how backward mapping technology, nor will the two Islands to draw so close! Contrast map of the Western release above, we can find, “黄沙" and "萬里長沙”, In fact, from the 1613 British Captain John Sullivan wrote 《Sailing log 》, Map described in the "long zone". Regardless of position or shape point of view, the two maps are the same. In the long strip zone on the map, The top label (Pulon Cham), Central label (Pulou Canton), Bottom marked（Pulou Gambir). It can be predicted this long zone(《The Complete Map of Unified Great Nam》“黄沙"and"萬里長沙”), Is along the direction parallel with the coast of central Vietnam, the distribution of some small islands and sandbars. John Sullivan in the book describes the long strip, its shaped like a foot, foot, thumb towards the southwest, located at latitude 12 °~ 16 ° 30 east longitude 110 ° ~ 111 °. In the long strip northwest, north latitude 16 ° to 17 °, longitude 111 ° 30 'to 112 ° 42', (Les Lunet tes), the island was lateral distribution. The Xisha Islands (latitude 15 ° 42 '~ 17 ° 08', longitude 111 ° 10 '~ 112 ° 55). They are able to judge, (Les Lunet te) Chinese Xisha Islands.

The Map of South and East Ocean Sea Routes was drawn in between 1712-1721 by Qing (Ching) Dynasty Fujian (Fuchien) Province Navy Commander Shi Shibiao, the son of a famous early Qing Dynasty Imperial Officer. This map shows clearly the sea routes, time and decriptions from Chinese coastal ports to Japan, Laos, Vietnam, Indonesia,Brunei, Cambodia and the Phinllipines. In this map, the locations and names of the Southern Sea Islands(Nanhai Zhudao) are very accurate. The map shows clearly Chinese sovereignty over the South China　Sea Islands including Nansha Islands, Xisha Islands, Zhongsha Islands and Dongsha Islands.Also note the "long bar area" shown in this map which locates close to the Vietnamese coast, which clearly tells that the so called "Truong Sa" and "Hoang Sa" as shown in the 1838 "Complete Map of Unified Great Nam" are not the Nansha (Spratlys) and Xisha (Paracels) Islands of China at all, but refers to the Pullo Canton near the central Vietnamese coast, which was also once been identified as "dangerous group" and named Paracels before Paracels was used to refer to China's Xisha Islands later in the history.

This is what an ashame. Paracels is not refer to China, it is refer to Vietnam. The King of Vietnam bring troop to the Islands hundred of years ago. There is ancient maps from European navigators state that Paracels belong to Vietnam, I will post the evidence here.

Can you give evidence that Paracels refer to China? I am pretty sure that you cant, cos Paracels never belong to China. But I can find, cos it is belong to Vietnam

 

[harryhayward]

Do you feel ashamed when your country is doing all those things you mentioned in the Middle East and other places? I do. Or you're just a hypocrite saying your country invades others for the sake of humanities.

For the case of Libya, The dictator kill its people so the people call for help from the UN. The US help Libya people to kick out the dictator, we, the US, did not get any piece of land
For Iraq, the reason originally from terrorism, not invade.
For Vietnam war, it is the South fight the North,...

All case, the US did not get any piece of land from those contries, not like the PRC, invade Tibet, invade partially other neighbor countries. Now planning to invade its neighbor countries on the EEZ and seem want all international sea too.

Then what are you want to do?
You're government doesn't want to start a war to claim "YOUR" so called lands.
They resort to bullying which is disgustful and unrespectable to the eyes of the other nation

Dude we are not on the ancient eras anymore.
You can't just go around yelling anyone labeling them thieves

You need proofs, evidences, documents
You need to backup your claims

China is the one who avoids the court for some weird reason
Didn't they teach you political science on your school?
No offense bro but you are really blinded by your government.

The only way to end this conflict is via diplomat or war
Tell your government to grow some BALLS and stop bullying FFS

Not only the Chinese gov, but also lot of Chinese people who only get infor from their gov. They want to invade other contries without any worry about they wrong.

All they want is killing people who are not follow them:

???????? - ?? - ?

With google translation:Google Translate

While the Chinese gov speak to the world that they are peaceful, but it is not true. All they want is killing, as many post on globaltimes.cn

 

[dunhill]

For the case of Libya, The dictator kill its people so the people call for help from the UN. The US help Libya people to kick out the dictator, we, the US, did not get any piece of land
For Iraq, the reason originally from terrorism, not invade.
For Vietnam war, it is the South fight the North,...

All case, the US did not get any piece of land from those contries, not like the PRC, invade Tibet, invade partially other neighbor countries. Now planning to invade its neighbor countries on the EEZ and seem want all international sea too.

If there is a choice 2 old enemies China and U.S, I'll pick U.S for best. At least, Vietnamese people could learn from U.S the high technologies, democracy rather than always put the meter for every time you want to make love due to its "One child policy". That's how China is.

 

[harryhayward]

In ancient time, SCS was a busy water route, which was called Maritime Silk Road. And there were several fisheries for Chinese fishermen. The odds that those islands were not found by ancient Chinese is zero. Actually, there were evidences once. On some of the islands, there were temples and tombs built by Chinese. But right after these islands were stolen, the evidences were wiped away by thief gov. And their ppl were told nothing was there. Our ancient books also mentioned these islands many times.

People lived in ancient time didn't have the concept of asserting sovereignty. I don't know to whom you claimed your sovereignty and how you maintained your sovereignty. Sounds funny that your ancestors could do the acts only modern ppl could do. And how your ancient gov managed these islands that are so far away from your mainland? There is word you guys always mentioned: brain-washed. By the way, there was no country called Vietnam in 1939. So Japan couldn't stole something from air. In 1939, China was fighting against Japan's invasion. France and Japan had not declared war to each other yet. For Japanese, there is only one explanation: They took the islands from China, not from France.

Cairo statement didn't mention Hainan island either. It always belongs to China. So we did't need Japanese to "return" us.

"And how your ancient gov managed these islands that are so far away from your mainland?"

The fact is that Vietnamse Emperor did rule that island with troop. There are evidence, boat, documents... All evidence are ready to bring to the court and welcome to be verified by high reputation lap whether or not it is true.

You cant say Paracels belong to China because you have no convincing reason, evidence for that. How can you claim Paracels belong to china? by some sink boats? some equipments? it is not convincing cos now CHinese gov can put any items on the offshore of Paracels and say, it found evidence. Even true evidence, if found, is not convincing cos it only state that china boat used to pass the island, not the owner of the island. You guy need rulling documents and evidence. That you guy never have because in the past, China never owe Paracels

 

[harryhayward]

You ridiculed that guy who declares Vietnam belongs to China by replying him "I declare that China belongs to Mongolia".
I'm not supporting his silly comment, but I think you are using the wrong "example", since China never belongs to Mongolia.

I understand what the guy Dao Bach Long Vy mean, it is an analogy, to show the illustration.

If China invaded Vietnam, and claim Vietnam as territory of China. So statement will come to any invader can claim its invaded countries as territory.
According to this statement, Mongolia, at the age of great Khan, who invade European, Asian countries, including China, did invade China for hundred of years, so now Mongolia can claim China as its territory.

Also, Japan who invade China in 1930's, can claim China as Its territory , if the statement "China invade Vietnam thousand years ago so Vietnam is territory of China" is true

 

[harryhayward]

Ma cau flag, but you are mainlander brainwashed by CPC. Comparation is not relative. Stop at China's situation.
Mongolian invaded and ruled chinese. Chinese given up and accepted Mongolian to rule you. Kings of Yuan Dynasty were Mongolian. They used Chinese to rule Chinese. Haha. You are typical Ah Q chinese, have a habitat to do masturbation themselves. The same thing Manchus did with Chinese. You are chinese have been following the hairdo cut from Man Qing...

Pls have neutral tone here, to all people. I believe that Macao, HK, originally from China but they know what is right or wrong better than people in PRC, who got info mostly from Chinese gov, and the way they think is not critical thinking

I laugh at the thief, who stole 40 islands quietly, wants to take the victims to court, perhaps 恶人先告状 is a perfect term to describe that particular thief. The worst thing for him is he thinks everybody is on his side. LOL

That's only your rude opinion, who rob here, the guy bring troop to invade violently while vietnam having domestic war, or the owner with documents and evidences?

Can you guys argue with convincing documents and evidence rather than a stupid statement like thief.. YOu live in Hongkong, get enough education, can you argue in scholar way,cos seem pet, just raise the opinion, not educated people?

 

[Snomannen]

I understand what the guy Dao Bach Long Vy mean, it is an analogy, to show the illustration.

If China invaded Vietnam, and claim Vietnam as territory of China. So statement will come to any invader can claim its invaded countries as territory.
According to this statement, Mongolia, at the age of great Khan, who invade European, Asian countries, including China, did invade China for hundred of years, so now Mongolia can claim China as its territory.

Also, Japan who invade China in 1930's, can claim China as Its territory , if the statement "China invade Vietnam thousand years ago so Vietnam is territory of China" is true

I know it is an analogy, a wrong analogy.
As I said, there was not a country named "China" before the Republic. How could the ancient Mongolia invaded a country that is not even exist? Same story to German, how could Bismarck even invade Germany?
Modern China is a multinational state established by Chinese ethnic groups including Tibetan, Han, Manchu, Mongol etc. AlthoughOuter Mongolia (Khalkha Mongolia) betrayed the family and become an independent state "Mongolia", Outer Mongolian (Khalkha people) has no rights to claim China in front of Inner Mongolian (Chinese, Golden Family, successors of Genghis Khan).

and yes it is a off-topic which is not related to the maps and evidences, actually I have to keep silence to the main topic since I don't know the true. However, there's concept has to be fixed here.