German Chancellor Angela Merkel's historical China map flap

[Grand Historian]

Notice how its always Vietnamese trolls that try to argue for Cantonese independence,the Baiyue are long dead why would you expect modern day ethnicties to resemble them perfectly?

 

[Grand Historian]

yes and no: Nanyue had been a vassal of the Han, but this title was just superficial. the country was independent, and never accepted orders from the Han emperors. Zhao Tuo promoted himself to emperor, a concept clearly derived from the Yue/Viet people that strived an equal relationship to Han China.

you may be right. at one point, the Yue nobility intrigued and went too far by rejecting further paying tributes. The Han used the provocation as pretext and annexed Nayue Kingdom at the end of the day.

Yes they did accept orders Zhao Tuo ceased his attacks against Changsha and Zhao Tuo himself apologized for his invasion.

Though privately he copied the concept of Huangdi,he used the title Wang when Han envoys came showing his submission.

Huangdi is a Chinese title not Vietnamese,declaring independence is not a Vietnamese trait.

Zou Ying of Minyue attempted to attack Nanyue leading to Han intervention after Zhao Hu pleaded for help.

Furthermore as act of good faith Zhao Hu sent the crown prince Zhao Yingqi to the Han capital,in turn Zhao Yingqi sent Zhao Cigong as his father did to him.

The reason why the Yue nobility began its overtures of rebellion is because Zhao Yingqi married Chinese woman surnamed Jiu.

Empress Dowager Jiu had an affair with Anguo Shaoji(Chinese) leading towards the native Yue people to look at her in disdain.

Later Anguo Shaoji's suggestion that the Nanyue court be treated as a normal feudal lord ie like Wu Rui of Changsha rendering tribute every 3 years etc. which angered the Yue minister Lu Jia.

Empress Dowager Jiu held a banquet where she tried to kill Lu Jia leading to his escape however nothing happened since Zhao Xing still relied on his support.

The straw that broke the camels back was when the Han emperor sent Han Qianqiu and Jiu Yue with 2,000 men to dispose Lu Jia.

Lu Jia preceded to eliminate the Queen dowager Jiu and other Han envoys,Zhao Xing was deposed and Zhao Jiande was made king.

Lu Bode,Yang Pu and some Nanyue traitors preceded to march towards Nanyue.

Eventually Zhao Jiande and Lu Jia were captured however their fate is unknown.

 

[BoQ77]

Grand Historian : what do you think about the German idea to gift Xi that map ?

 

[EastSea]

The straw that broke the camels back was when the Han emperor sent Han Qianqiu and Jiu Yue with 2,000 men to dispose Lu Jia.
Lu Jia preceded to eliminate the Queen dowager Jiu and other Han envoys,Zhao Xing was deposed and Zhao Jiande was made king.
Lu Bode,Yang Pu and some Nanyue traitors preceded to march towards Nanyue.
Eventually Zhao Jiande and Lu Jia were captured however their fate is unknown.

Lữ Gia is Vietnamese from Cửu Chân in Jiao Zhou.

Lữ Gia – Wikipedia tiếng Việt

Temple of Lữ Gia.

 

[Grand Historian]

Lữ Gia is Vietnamese from Cửu Chân in Jiao Zhou.

Lữ Gia – Wikipedia tiếng Việt

Temple of Lữ Gia.

I already addressed this,Lu Jia being Vietnamese is nothing more than fabrication.

Otherwise where in the Shiji or other Chinese records does it contain this information.

 

[EastSea]

I already addressed this,Lu Jia being Vietnamese is nothing more than fabrication.

Otherwise where in the Shiji or other Chinese records does it contain this information.

Shiji didn't stated he was from Zhending northern Chima.

 

[Edison Chen]

Shiji didn't stated he was from Zhending northern Chima.

You have read Shiji? If don't, please shut up.

 

[EastSea]

You have read Shiji? If don't, please shut up.

You misunderstood, we discuused about Lu Jia, not abot Zhea Tuo. Shut a mouth idiot

 

[Krueger]

April 10, 2014

The map, a gift from German Chancellor Angela Merkel to Chinese President Xi Jinping, shows a smaller territory for China. It has led netizens to question Merkel's message behind the gift

CONTROVERSIAL CHINA MAP: German Chancellor Angela Merkel gift to Chinese President Xi Jinping offends Chinese netizens. Screenshot of Time.com report

"Maybe heads of state shouldn't give maps as presents"

The Time article reads: "The 1735 d’Anville mapshows 'China proper' as a landmass separate from areas like Xinjiang, Tibet, Mongolia and Manchuria. The island of Hainan is drawn in a different color, as is Taiwan. This depiction is utterly at odds with how history is taught here."

It added: "Chinese students learn that these areas are inalienable parts of China, and that they have been for a long, long time. One netizen described the map as a 'slap' from Merkel."

The map was supposedly drawn with the help of Jesuit missionaries. (Here's another article from the Sydney Morning Herald (SMH) that shows the ancient map: Angela Merkel's historical China map flap)

The SMH writes: "The d'Anville map, at least visually, is a rejection of that narrative [in Chinese schools]. Unsurprisingly, China's official media outlets don't seem to have appreciated Merkel's gift. The People's Daily, which has given meticulous accounts of Xi's European tour, eluded any coverage of the offending map."

Different version

A different version of the map was apparently circulated by the local media in China. According to SMH, Chinese media reported that Merkel's gift was an 1844 map made by John Dower and published in London showing a bigger territory encompassing China's territory to include "Tibet, Xinjiang, Mongolia and large swaths of Siberia."

The 17th century marked the beginning of the expansionist Qing Dynasty, which eventually conquered more territories.

The 9-dash-line claim that China meant to delineate its maritime borders, however, was drawn in 1947 by the Kuomintang Government. (READ: South China Sea represents 'a new Persian Gulf'?)

It's a claim that overlaps with the 200 nautical mile Exclusive Economic Zone of neighboring countries as defined by the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS). (READ: 'No such thing as 9-dash-line' – US envoy)

In the Philippines, a map published as early as 1734 shows the now disputed Scarborough as part of the Zambales province in Luzon. The map was made by Spanish Jesuit Pedro Murillo Velarde. The shoal used to be called Bajo de Masinloc. (READ: Scarborough shoal according to Manila, Beijing)

Manila has filed a case against Bejing before a United Nations-backed arbitral tribunal over China's claims in South China Sea.

18th century map debunks China's territorial claim

 

[Edison Chen]

If I was the moderator of PDF, I will award Krueger the "best director of the year on PDF", next we will see who is the "best actor"

 

[chhota bheem]

If I was the moderator of PDF, I will award Krueger the "best director of the year on PDF", next we will see who is the "best actor"

Dont reserve the best actress role for yourself everyone want to see who is the next actress as well.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

This is Angela Merkel's vision about the 18th century China, but she is not a historian.

Her personal opinion doesn't represent the history.

 

[Edison Chen]

Dont reserve the best actress role for yourself everyone want to see who is the next actress as well.

I am a male. And we have too many candidates.

 

[applesauce]

when we are talking specifically about the map Merkel gave, it doesn't "debunk" anything, the map was a german/french product made in the 18th century. as you may know, maps made by a third party doesn't decide national borders especially one that doesn't fully know the situation of the area which it is mapping, in the same way that if china decided to make a map where french borders stop at berlin, it means little and would not actually change the french-german border.

in fact several things about the map already doesn't make any sense. for instance, taiwan was conquered by admiral shi lang in 1683 and rule as a chinese prefecture of the Qing empire, it status was then upgraded to a providence in 1885, no one contests this historical fact, and it lasted till the beginning of japanese imperialism in the late 1800s. yet this map supposedly made in the 18th century already has that portion wrong.

furthermore, the buzz about this map isn't what it proves or disproves, rather the reason the chinese internet is alight is because people are trying to ascertain what the intentions of Merkel was if any at all. i believe she means nothing special by it.

lastly. those of you who would point to a european map made in the 18th century as evidence of national borders of asian states (no matter what side of the dispute you are on) have a seriously inferiority problem.

 

[BoQ77]

In real, China has too many dispute surrounded, inside, outside
All with unrest situation ... not peaceful as China want ...

So the old map still reflect something, not nothing ...
surprise for unrest lasts from 18th century to 21st century ....

So German implies a clear opinion to gift the map to Xi, ... there's no meaningless item.

Always like that

And this

Chinese students learn that these areas are inalienable parts of China, and that they have been for a long, long time. One netizen described the map as a “slap” from Merkel. “We always say some regions are inalienable parts of China since ancient times, but Merkel told us that even in 18th century those regions still did not belong to China.”