1904 China map admits Paracel, Spratly not Chinese territory

[ComeAtMeBro]

Even we are 100% sure that we are winning in the court. We are not going to take our land to court. As I said, this is a dangerous start. Only thieves like to try their luck on court. It's a zero risk business for them.

The only thieves here are those who took it by force

 

[SpiritHS]

No you're wrong, there's no better than both of us. It's the evidence that matters here
We don't care if you won in the end atleast you won in a more manly and less barbaric way rather than bullying you know

You can use any evidence if you want to, in the end the decision is in the hand of the court

Chinese people with the habit of trampling on international law, pirates will never go to court.

 

[starbuck]

1. The "1904 China map" only shows a part of China (直&#30465, not the whole China;

2. The donors and the owner of the museum are careless.

Ancient people can not talk for us in court， which you are very good at taking advantage of. If I'm not making it wrong. I remember there is an ancient Chinese ship under the water of Huangyan Island. Is that an evidence for us?

Just like a joke!
In 2003, near Cù Lao Chàm Island (Quảng Nam Province of Vietnam), we found a Chinese ship under the water which sank in mid 15th century, so Cù Lao Chàm is belonged to China, too?????????

I repeat to you again, any claims about sovereignty must be based on OFFICIAL, STATE-LEVEL documents.

All of Chinese "evidences", althouth very difficult to find out, are PRIVATE, PERSONAL documents like diaries, memoirs, stories, etc. They have no value on the international court or negotiations.

 

[kankan326]

Actually Spain, England, France, Portugal ... did that. Even our ancient people did both of those things. So?

It only proves that your ancient people found the island in the NEAR past. People lived in about 1000 years ago would never do that. It's like to let your ancient people who found the island use GPS to measure its coodinates.

 

[kankan326]

Just like a joke!
In 2003, near Cù Lao Chàm Island (Quảng Nam Province of Vietnam), we found a Chinese ship under the water which sank in mid 15th century, so Cù Lao Chàm is belonged to China, too?????????

First of all, I have no idea what island you are talking about. If it's an island right beside to Vietnam coast line, or if it not an uninhabited island at all. It's yours. Chinese could by no means found it earlier than you Vietnamese.

 

[Đảo Bạch Long Vỹ]

It only proves that your ancient people found the island in the NEAR past. People lived in about 1000 years ago would never do that. It's like to let your ancient people who found the island use GPS to measure its coodinates.

Who know did you really live there? I can say that Vietnamese people lived in Hainan about ... 5000 years ago, so who can verify that?

Remember, people around the world, Spain, England, France, Portugal ..., and even us did both of those things. We did those 2 things so we have a base to claim our sovereignty, so our sovereignty is legal. You Chinese doesn't have a base to claim, so your "sovereignty" there is illegal.

As I said, the 2 things you need are:

1) claim it officially, by (an) official map(s) or by a declaration from your gov, but no one oppose your claim.
2) disembark your army there to set sovereignty or pitch your flag there; but no one oppose your action.

Even we are 100% sure that we are winning in the court. We are not going to take our land to court. As I said, this is a dangerous start. Only thieves like to try their luck on court. It's a zero risk business for them.

Well, it's an awkward moment when a thief like going to a court and an innocent afraid of the danger in a court

 

[harryhayward]

I have read Mr beijingwalker post: "any publication house can print their maps,there are tons of old maps published by many publication houses all across China and the world,on the same map,maybe it shows that Vietnam is part of France"

I disagree that any publication can publish the naitional map. How can they draw the map, where can they get data. Making the map is very complicated, and need an authorized (normally from state/govement), especially from early 20th centery. Even now, a publishing can print the map, in China, but can they print a map that unauthorized/unapproved from Chinese govement about national land? I sure it is not, cos all countries in the world, that have government , can not allow any state publishing/gov publishing house print a map that is not correct about their land. Your idea is not convincing. This map was printed by The Han-Chinese map published in 1904 by Shanghai Publishing House

The map was created across nearly two centery (1708 – 1904), from the Kangxi Emperor who ruled China from 1661 – 1722 to the Guangxu Emperor from 1875 to 1908. The emperors asked many clergymen and gifted astronomers and mathematicians to make this map. IT IS NOT EASY TO MAKE A MAP AT THAT PERIOD, and it is very hard job. Maps, in order to be pulished, need to get authority from the King/Goverment.
More specifically, in 1708, King Kangxi recruited some western clergymen to draw the map of the Great Wall. In 1711, the King continued to ask the clergymen to survey lands in 13 provinces nationwide. After that, Chinese intellectuals and western clergymen worked together for nearly 200 years to finish this map. Among famous western clergymen helping King Kangxi with the map were Matteo Bicci from Italy, Joannes Adam Schall Von Bell from Germany, and Ferdinandus Verbiest from Belgium.

In 1904, Shanghai Publishing House printed this map and distributed it to all provinces of the Qing Dynasty, the last imperial dynasty of China ruling from 1644 to 1912. The introduction of the map was written by the director of a Chinese observatory.

There are lot of evidence, still exist, cos it is history. We will find more to prove that The spratly and paracel is NOT belong to China. Every maps from Chinese Gov need to be authenticated by high reputation Institute, like verify age of map...

We, Vietnamese, are happy to bring our evidence to the world to show that our evidence is true. Dare the Chinese gov to do that? I am afraid not, cos many case they are fake.

 

[harryhayward]

"First of all, I have no idea what island you are talking about. If it's an island right beside to Vietnam coast line, or if it not an uninhabited island at all. It's yours. Chinese could by no means found it earlier than you Vietnamese.
"

Sorry, may be that guy living in Vietnam so his E is not good and clear enough. Let me explain to you

"Ancient people can not talk for us in court， which you are very good at taking advantage of. If I'm not making it wrong. I remember there is an ancient Chinese ship under the water of Huangyan Island. Is that an evidence for us?"

That is not convincing. Chinese ancient ship did not prove that the sovereign of land/island, the right of property. That guy oppose your idea by giving an example, there are Chinese ancient ship sunk found in Vietnam, it show only that at that moment, there are Chinese businessmen/immigrants in Vietnam, or even Chinese troops who invade Vietnam in the past and defeated. Your reason is not concrete. It is better if you can show any document from the King, about some job, rulling activities in those Islands
If you said there are sunk Chinese ship there, so it is belong to China. I can disagree with that by pointing sunk ship mean there are chinese ship cross those island. But there are European ship cross the island before Chinese people so Chinese ship sunk there did not prove the property right. For example, now you live in Shanghai, you buy a house in Bejing. No one in Bejing can claim your house as his/her house because he pass your house, even he/she sleep there. In order to prove that, he/she must show property owner cerification. That kind of certification, is the document from your King, any document about rulling the Island

 

[Korean]

I remember there is an ancient Chinese ship under the water of Huangyan Island. Is that an evidence for us?

No, that only means Chinese sailed near Scarborough Shoals, presumably to reach Philippines, not own it.

Just like how a Viking Ship found near Canada doesn't mean a Swedish or Norwegian ownership of Canada.

 

[Korean]

China can reclaim the whole Japan because we sent our earliest settlers there in Qin Dynasty!

China fought the Imperial Japan for 5 1/2 years without receiving the help from the West, the US started to offer the supply to KMT until the event of Pearl Harbor.

And that's the work of KMT, not the communists. Rather, the war dragged on because the communists attacked the KMT, making it difficult for the KMT to focus on Japan.

 

[Korean]

From this map, most Northeast part of China, what we call "The Three Provinces of Northeast" , is not shown in it.

Because those areas are Manchuria and not China.

This is quite unreasonable. Because the rulers of China at that time, including emperors themselves, came from Northeast

And the Manchus did not consider themselves Chinese; rather, Manchus conquered China and ruled China as foreign rulers. This is the reason behind Manchu's segregationist policies, similar to British's segregation policy in India.

some say "Manchu". How could the map maker forgot emperors birthland when they made a whole country map? Can I say this is a fake map? Seriously.

Because Manchus regarded Manchuria and China as two historically separate countries. China was to Manchus what India was to British; an acquisition of foreign terrotory.

Chinese government suppress information that does not align with their claim so the general Chinese population will only see the false info their govt is spreading. In general the chinese people were not informed properly, what they know are just bias info towards their claim. So I'm not surprised of Chinese posters here who sincerely believe that they own the SCS.

Indeed, this is why Chinese are shocked and dumb-founded when they are told of the true history when they go outside of China, because it is nothing like "Glorious China" BS that the communists feed to their population.

 

[harryhayward]

"US,ISREAL,THE MIDDLE EAST,INDIA...WHICH LAND OR OTHER DISPUTES WERE SETTLED BY SO CALLED INTERNATIONAL COURT?I DONT REMEMBER ANY.
"
There are lot of cases that get join international court. for example, recently Malaysia vs Indonesia, Cambodia vs Thailand..
US now has no dispute with other country about land.

Like in a society, there must be a rule, civilized law, not the law of forest or the law by war. Otherwise, the society will be chaos, robbery, fighting.... not like hundred of years ago. People should follow the law in a country and countries should follow the international law. Dont play like the game of rulling, killing and invading.
China often said that it has unbeatable evidence to prove that Spratly and Parracels belong to China. If it is, the case will be simple, show the evidence to the court, and you will get these Island without argueing or fighting anymore. Vietnam, Philipin... will no longer ask for those Islands and still want to be friendly countries with China. But I am afraid that what your gov tell Chinese people and international people is not true cos now scholars outside China prove that Chinese's evidence is the weakest and the most unconvincing. I gave you and example, in June, 2012, some Chinese scholar join South China Sea Dialogue hosted by CSIS, all scholars, from all over the world but not China, laughted at the reasons spoke out by Chinese Scholars. Pls do your own reasearch if you have time or if you are not interested, that is okie. Now, most of all Asian countries ask for help from the US or seeking US's power as an counteweigh, ask yourself why. If the Chinese give them economic opportunities, not invade their land, for the countries that army power << China, if it is not their land, dare they do that? Look at your contry's history, you are always the invader. And now it is hapen again in 21st Century.
Now is 21st Century,

We are smaller country, we dont want to use power/war, so it is better to go to the court and show our evidence , hey this is our land, we have all evidence and well convincing reason, give me back my land that China uses troops to invade while our country was having domestic war. That is.

 

[harryhayward]

I agree with mr Korean, like new calculation of the length of China Great wall, in 2011 (recent year I dont remember exactly but i can google it), Chinese authority want to add the part (Korean Wall) in Korea to extend the length cos they argue that previously, Korea is used to be territory of China so they can count the part in Korea too. It is not good at all.

 

[harryhayward]

Those maps don't say a thing you clown. Why not try to convince the whole world with those maps you posted and see if they agree with your kind of logic. You guys posted so many different maps claiming the islands why not share them with the experts around the world and ask them if they totally agree with you clowns. That's fair enough don't you think?

We are confident to share, and with high reputation verification institute. By the way, there are lot of maps from the Europe to show the evidence that Spratly and Paracels NOT belong to China. How do you react with the old maps from European?

 

[harryhayward]

Forget about Paracels, Vietnam belongs to China.... not as a province, but as a mere vassal state. We enslaved you for 1000 years because our wise ancestors saw your inferiority and exploited it

HongWu: We are here to argue that Spratly and Paracels not belong to China

For your new topic, I would like to emphasize something more. Your King and Government always say that China come to Vietnam to help, educated people for thousands years. But what they did? They bring troop to invade other smaller countries, killing men, sexual Assault to women, killing children, robbing property, burning education document, ruin our culture.... Other countries, like Vietnam, Korea, ...in the past, is civilized enough and need not any help/educated from China. The Vietnam is much smaller country but defeat China many times so we are very smart.There are lot of scholar, doctors, architecturers...from VietNam were invited to China and exchange medical knowledge, making good poem.. Your government come to kill, not to help. I fully aware that you know your county did terrible thing like that in the past, and I want to say here, CHinese Government always lie when they want to invade other countries, they talk about good things to the world/their people but they do/did very terribly bad things