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1904 China map admits Paracel, Spratly not Chinese territory

Man Qing didn't have idea about 11-dash. Don't lie.



Manchu Kuo and Manchu People here.



I said it is a Qing Dynasty map, not a Qing Dynasty map drawn from Qing Dynasty.


800px-2006Taipei101RunUp_Opening-06.jpg

Meet King Pu-tsung, the Real Manchu People here.

and please mind your own problem from Montagnards.

Here is true Manchu: Sason Adam Tonis

manchu%20flag%20small.JPG
 
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Look at these Chinese Map below to know, Hoang Sa and Truong Sa archipelagos (Paracels and Spratlys), and so-called "nine-dotted line" had never been recognized as China's territory!

1. Chinese map 1850: 二 京 十八省 總圖 in the book "清二京十八省疆域全圖"


H%C3%ACnh+01+-+1850%E6%B8%85%E4%BA%8C%E4%BA%AC%E5%8D%81%E5%85%AB%E7%9C%81+1.jpg


2. Chinese map 1850: 廣東全圖 in the book "清二京十八省疆域全圖"

H%C3%ACnh+2-+1850%E6%B8%85%E4%BA%8C%E4%BA%AC%E5%8D%81%E5%85%AB%E7%9C%812.jpg


3. Chinese map 1905: 大清帝國) in the book "清代地图集, 清光绪三十一年(1905年,上海商务印书馆编印出版)"

H%C3%ACnh+03-+1905.png


4. Chinese map, May 1907: 大清國全圖) in the book "大清帝國分省精圖"

H%C3%ACnh+04-+1907+1.jpg


5. Chinese map in the book "大清帝國分省精圖"

H%C3%ACnh+05-1907+2.jpg


6. Chinese map, 1908 大清帝國 in the book "大清帝國全圖, 宣統元年,上海商務印書館"

H%C3%ACnh+06-+1908+%E5%A4%A7%E6%B8%85%E5%B8%9D%E5%9B%BD%E5%85%A8%E5%9B%BE+%E5%AE%A3%E7%BB%9F%E5%85%83%E5%B9%B4+%E5%A4%A7%E6%B8%85%E5%B8%9D%E5%9B%BD.jpg


7. Chinese map, Guangdong 1908 in the book "大清帝國全圖, 宣統元年,上海商務印書館"

H%C3%ACnh+07-1908+%E5%A4%A7%E6%B8%85%E5%B8%9D%E5%9B%BD%E5%85%A8%E5%9B%BE+%E5%AE%A3%E7%BB%9F%E5%85%83%E5%B9%B4+%E5%B9%BF%E4%B8%9C%E7%9C%81.jpg
 
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8. Chinese map, (清國大地圖革命動亂地點注) 1912, California Museum

H%C3%ACnh+09-+1912.jpg


9. Chinese map, 中華民國全圖 1926, in the book "中華新形勢一覽圖"

H%C3%ACnh+10-+1926%E4%B8%AD%E5%8D%8E%E6%96%B0%E5%BD%A2%E5%8A%BF%E5%9B%BE.jpg


9. Chinese map, 中華民國全圖 1933, in the book "中華民國分省地圖冊"

H%C3%ACnh+12-+1933%E6%B0%91%E5%9B%BD%E5%88%86%E7%9C%81.jpg


10. Chinese map, 中華民國全圖 1935, in the book "最新中華形勢一覽圖"

H%C3%ACnh+14-1935+%E4%B8%AD%E5%8D%8E%E6%96%B0%E5%BD%A2%E5%8A%BF%E4%B8%80%E8%A7%88%E5%9B%BE.jpg



11. Chinese map, Guangdong province 1939, in the book "中國地圖冊", author 松田壽男

H%C3%ACnh+17-1939%E6%97%A5%E7%89%88%E6%B0%91%E5%9B%BD%E5%9C%B0%E5%9B%BE16.%E5%B9%BF%E4%B8%9C%E7%9C%81.jpg



Hey Chinese, what do you want to say when you see those maps?

Where are your "historical territories"??????????

Where are your NANSHA, XISHA, ZHONGSHA, SHANSHA????????

I'm please here to hearing you!
 
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Only thief, robber, criminal are afraid of going to court, they're afraid of facing the truth and punishments, innocent people aren't !
 
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I laugh at the thief, who stole 40 islands quietly, wants to take the victims to court, perhaps 恶人先告状 is a perfect term to describe that particular thief. The worst thing for him is he thinks everybody is on his side. LOL
 
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I could not understand the Chinese government and Chinese people
Their economic development based on copying
They cheered and communication based on fallacies, lies and hiding informations
They are cynical to produce toxic products. Even harmful to their families and children.
They aggressively with all neighbor countries from small countries to large countries: Laos, Vietnam, Philippines, Japan, Korea, Russia, India, ....

While they praised the film production of meaning, causality, honesty. They export 孔教to other countries. But the Chinese government does not comply with any international legal norms.

I don't understand why a country that was once a victim of World War II, pinched, suffering by the war. Aggressively always been at war with the world and pinched around the country and to appropriate the property of their legal.

Why, Why, Why.
China please wake up!
 
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I laugh at the thief, who stole 40 islands quietly, wants to take the victims to court, perhaps 恶人先告状 is a perfect term to describe that particular thief. The worst thing for him is he thinks everybody is on his side. LOL

don't say idiot thing.
In the past nearly thousand years Vietnam controlled Islands peacefully because Islands belong to Viet. Qing Man Dynasty didn't considered a Islands are parts of China. The evident is that Map made in China didn't drawn up.
 
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I laugh at the thief, who stole 40 islands quietly, wants to take the victims to court, perhaps 恶人先告状 is a perfect term to describe that particular thief. The worst thing for him is he thinks everybody is on his side. LOL

Wow a thief was talking about stealing :rofl:

Check this out:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...el-spratly-not-chinese-territory-13.html#post
3237586

As you shall see, French, American, Dutch, Italian, Spanish, German ... support us. See, they clearly said that Paracel belongs to Vietnam :rofl:

A thief is the one whose ancestors never claim sovereignty in the history but always using his big mouth to throw out the repeating propaganda: "We had 2000-year-old sovereignty".
But who never claim those islands? He is:

Ancient Chinese never claimed sovereignty to the islands
 
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I laugh at the thief, who stole 40 islands quietly, wants to take the victims to court, perhaps 恶人先告状 is a perfect term to describe that particular thief. The worst thing for him is he thinks everybody is on his side. LOL
It is not logic when China is the victim and afraid of going to court. Based on the maps posted in this forum, I think that Vietnam, Philippine are the victims.

Other guys, who are from or at least support China, tried to show at least some papers although they are only for fun. I hope that you can show the envidences showing that China is the victim.
 
. . .
Đảo Bạch Long Vỹ;3244823 said:
Yeah yeah yeah finally you mean that Vietnamese Paracels is different with real Paracels :rofl:
Before you start saying something that really hard to understand, list down your answer for all 6 of my points:

1) There is no near-coast archipelago which is big and far enough to be mistaken with the more noticeable Paracels. You have to show me an archipelago which is fitted to your argument. Why don't you just go to google maps and find an archipelago like that, capture your screen and post here? If you can't find that archipelago on google maps or google earth, your argument is invalid.

2) Why don't they just go and draw the real Paracel instead of some near-coast island? It's an awkward moment when thousands of Westerners had gone around South China Sea for 400 years but all of them just "missed" the real Paracels "until the year xxxx". While they couldn't found the real Paracel, they found some less noticeable "near-coast islands" to draw in their maps. Hmm, poor Westerners :rofl:

3) The French book "Traité élémentaire de géographie: contenant un abrégé méthodique du Précis de la géographie universelle en huit volumes" (volume 2) was published in Paris, 1831. Page 221 said that: "equal-spaced between Hainan and Cochinchina, Paracels archipelago was depended on Annam Empire". "A une egale distance de la cote de Cochinchine et de l'ile d'Hai-nan, l'archipel de Paracels est une dependance de l'empire d'Annam". No near-coast islands in Central Vietnam is equal-spaced between Vietnamese coast and Hainan. So the archipelago which was drawn by Westerners is real Paracel, because in Central Vietnam only Paracel is equal-spaced between Hainan and Vietnamese coast.
You can also search for "Nuovo dizionario geografico universale", Venezia, 1831

4) The map-drawing technique in that period was still poor, so the map can't provide the extract distance and size. They even drew Western Malaysia too close to Southern Vietnam than what it has to be. The size and appearance of the Gulf of Thailand is another problem. So some nautical miles different is not a big problem. When the technique was advanced, they drew the real distance:
AnNamDaiQuocHoaDo.jpg

Don't argue that Western Malaysia and Gulf of Thailand are not big problem. Other people will see it's a big problem or not. Just answer why the better-technique map in 1838 has the real distance?

5) Our Paracel Teams (Đội Hoàng Sa and Đội Bắc Hải, check our 1776 book) started their annual journeys from our near-coast islands to go to Paracel, and it took 3 days 3 nights to reach the Paracel in sailing season (windy season). For example, Ly Son island, just go and search it on google, oh if you have google there. Why do they go to a "near-coast islands" from the same "near-coast islands" to "set sovereignty" at where they had already lived, and it took 3 days 3 nights in sailing season just to reach the same archipelago?

6) You said that the Paracel in Vietnamese maps is just "the near-coast island" in Central Vietnam, but that near-coast island even appeared in that map beside Paracel:

So, your argument about "near-coast islands in the Central Vietnam" is invalid.

7) And finally, if you Chinese are confident in your "evidences", why don't go to an international court instead of this:
8caecc91930aa46fb62bb320feb31fab_47633545.7292012122157am.jpg


1.You are a fool ? When I say that the West 400 years did not find true of the Paracel Islands? I have already said very clearly: In 1613, the English captain discovered that the Xisha Islands, At that time he will Xisha Islands named "LES Lunet TES", The geographic coordinates: latitude 16 ° to 17 °, longitude 111 ° 30 'to 112 ° 42'. "Pracel" long region (central Vietnam coast, islands and sandbars), East to West Wide 106.5km, North-South length 500km, geographic coordinates: 12 ° ~ 16 ° 30 North, longitude 110 ° ~ 111 °. You need to use Google Maps, View them geographic coordinates where in the South China Sea!

2. Western countries define “Pracel”, Representative regions are different at different times. Before 1851,Western countries will be the bar area (central Vietnam coast, islands and sandbars) called "Pracel, After 1851, Western remove long strips of area, "Pracel" transferred to the Xisha Islands now. (See the previous Western map evolution)

3. France 1831 description "Pracel" for long region. This area: wide 106.5km long 500km. Use Google Maps to view the northern part of the region, To Vietnam and hainan island almost equal distance.

4. 1838 Map of Vietnam, Approximate outline of Vietnam can draw out, why only these two Islands and scale such a big difference? Vietnam to the actual distance of hainan island for more than 200 kilometers, the xisha islands to the actual distance for 300 km, to the distance to nansha more than 700 km, and the xisha islands to the spratly islands is more than 700 kilometres. If according to this map scale, Vietnam to the xisha islands distance to hainan island ,should be almost. Vietnam to the Nansha Islands in the distance, equal to the distance of two Vietnam to Hainan Island. The xisha islands to the distance of the nansha islands, More than Hanoi to Hoi An distance. If according to this ratio, the Vietnamese side as long as necessary, Can put the coast of Vietnam some islands , Apply to become Java and Timor. It is simply not yet reached the time.

5. In 1776, when Vietnam in coastal sailing ships, general is "紅船" or "田姑船", the ship is not only small, and the speed is slow. "紅船":其船體狹長,狀如龍舟,昂首尾丹漆之,船上不能容炊具,僅贮淡水一缸,船上掉軍赤體暴烈日中,渴則勺飲馁腹, Physical exertion, the speed is slow can be imagined. For example, in July 1795, Guangzhou monk “da shan chang weng”, "ready to return from Vietnam, Vietnamese officials are preparing a 40 ship”田姑船" for his farewell. The monks Ride "红船", at noon on the 19th, set sail from Hoi An, until the next morning to arrive at the "占婆島", Ride "洋船". From "廣南江口" to "占婆島", a distance of about 12 km, more than Half a day, day and a half of the voyage can only go up to more than 30 km. Vietnam so-called the Xisha fleet, from now (Quảng Ngãi Bình Sơn) Departure: geographic coordinates: latitude 15 ° 22'51 ", longitude 109 ° 07'03, For three days and three nights to reach the “Xisha Islands ", in fact, only sailed about 100 km.. From here through the ”Pracel“ the so-called Vietnam: "黃沙" and "萬里長沙", Need 197.5km, reach the Xisha Islands would need at least 250.75km.

6. It seems you do not have the exact geographical concept. Vietnam's most eastern longitude 109 ° 50 ', "Pracel", the so-called Vietnam: "sand" and "黃沙" and "萬里長沙", its geographical coordinates of longitude 110 ° to 111 °.Paracel Islands east longitude 111 ° 30 ' to 112 ° 42'. In this region, a longitude of approximately equal to 106.5km, In other words: Vietnam closest to the "黃沙" and "萬里長沙"17.75km, But do not forget, this long bar district wide 106.5km, Even if the Paracel Islands, also in this region in eastern 53km.

7. Many Chinese map is no Marked south China sea islands, because the Chinese territory too big, If the land and the sea to draw together, Can not show in detail the geographic profile of the South China Sea islands, We specialize in drawing the map of the South China Sea, Oath of China's sovereignty over the South China Sea Islands!

dong_yang_nan_yang_hai_dao_tu.jpg


The Map of South and East Ocean Sea Routes was drawn in between 1712-1721 by Qing (Ching) Dynasty Fujian (Fuchien) Province Navy Commander Shi Shibiao, the son of a famous early Qing Dynasty Imperial Officer. This map shows clearly the sea routes, time and decriptions from Chinese coastal ports to Japan, Laos, Vietnam, Indonesia,Brunei, Cambodia and the Phinllipines. In this map, the locations and names of the Southern Sea Islands(Nanhai Zhudao) are very accurate. The map shows clearly Chinese sovereignty over the South China Sea Islands including Nansha Islands, Xisha Islands, Zhongsha Islands and Dongsha Islands.Also note the "long bar area" shown in this map which locates close to the Vietnamese coast, which clearly tells that the so called "Truong Sa" and "Hoang Sa" as shown in the 1838 "Complete Map of Unified Great Nam" are not the Nansha (Spratlys) and Xisha (Paracels) Islands of China at all, but refers to the Pullo Canton near the central Vietnamese coast, which was also once been identified as "dangerous group" and named Paracels before Paracels was used to refer to China's Xisha Islands later in the history.

Republic of China 1935:
1935_Guangdong_Right.jpg


Republic of China 1937:
1937_nanhai_daoyu.jpg


Republic of China 1946:
ROC_SCS_map_y35m12_85dpi.jpg


I personally do not support an international court.As the victors in World War I, China is fully justified reasons, Recovery of the German concession in Shandong, but because at that time China national small and weak, from western countries the manipulation of the Paris peace conference was prescribed by Japan in the shandong inherited Germany all right. Now though China began to rise, but western society has been looking for opportunities to contain China, China can't take the second risks, will Its own sovereignty, Handed over to the Western countries to control international court.
 
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I laugh at the thief, who stole 40 islands quietly, wants to take the victims to court, perhaps 恶人先告状 is a perfect term to describe that particular thief. The worst thing for him is he thinks everybody is on his side. LOL

LOL. chinese is really good at turning culprit to victim and vice versa. it's not really surprise to see china has proplems all around its border. even the north korea is trying to escape from the evil influence of china.
Until this time, china only relies on force, weapons to claim its stolen islands. a greedy nation raises its citizents by seeds of lie, distortions of history.

Vietnam just a little monkey :lol:

you're not so evolved than us, dude. You're not bigger than a monkey.
At least we're not so hated as chinese
 
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1.You are a fool ? When I say that the West 400 years did not find true of the Paracel Islands? I have already said very clearly: In 1613, the English captain discovered that the Xisha Islands, At that time he will Xisha Islands named "LES Lunet TES", The geographic coordinates: latitude 16 ° to 17 °, longitude 111 ° 30 'to 112 ° 42'. "Pracel" long region (central Vietnam coast, islands and sandbars), East to West Wide 106.5km, North-South length 500km, geographic coordinates: 12 ° ~ 16 ° 30 North, longitude 110 ° ~ 111 °. You need to use Google Maps, View them geographic coordinates where in the South China Sea!

2. Western countries define “Pracel”, Representative regions are different at different times. Before 1851,Western countries will be the bar area (central Vietnam coast, islands and sandbars) called "Pracel, After 1851, Western remove long strips of area, "Pracel" transferred to the Xisha Islands now. (See the previous Western map evolution)

3. France 1831 description "Pracel" for long region. This area: wide 106.5km long 500km. Use Google Maps to view the northern part of the region, To Vietnam and hainan island almost equal distance.

4. 1838 Map of Vietnam, Approximate outline of Vietnam can draw out, why only these two Islands and scale such a big difference? Vietnam to the actual distance of hainan island for more than 200 kilometers, the xisha islands to the actual distance for 300 km, to the distance to nansha more than 700 km, and the xisha islands to the spratly islands is more than 700 kilometres. If according to this map scale, Vietnam to the xisha islands distance to hainan island ,should be almost. Vietnam to the Nansha Islands in the distance, equal to the distance of two Vietnam to Hainan Island. The xisha islands to the distance of the nansha islands, More than Hanoi to Hoi An distance. If according to this ratio, the Vietnamese side as long as necessary, Can put the coast of Vietnam some islands , Apply to become Java and Timor. It is simply not yet reached the time.

5. In 1776, when Vietnam in coastal sailing ships, general is "紅船" or "田姑船", the ship is not only small, and the speed is slow. "紅船":其船體狹長,狀如龍舟,昂首尾丹漆之,船上不能容炊具,僅贮淡水一缸,船上掉軍赤體暴烈日中,渴則勺飲馁腹, Physical exertion, the speed is slow can be imagined. For example, in July 1795, Guangzhou monk “da shan chang weng”, "ready to return from Vietnam, Vietnamese officials are preparing a 40 ship”田姑船" for his farewell. The monks Ride "红船", at noon on the 19th, set sail from Hoi An, until the next morning to arrive at the "占婆島", Ride "洋船". From "廣南江口" to "占婆島", a distance of about 12 km, more than Half a day, day and a half of the voyage can only go up to more than 30 km. Vietnam so-called the Xisha fleet, from now (Quảng Ngãi Bình Sơn) Departure: geographic coordinates: latitude 15 ° 22'51 ", longitude 109 ° 07'03, For three days and three nights to reach the “Xisha Islands ", in fact, only sailed about 100 km.. From here through the ”Pracel“ the so-called Vietnam: "黃沙" and "萬里長沙", Need 197.5km, reach the Xisha Islands would need at least 250.75km.

6. It seems you do not have the exact geographical concept. Vietnam's most eastern longitude 109 ° 50 ', "Pracel", the so-called Vietnam: "sand" and "黃沙" and "萬里長沙", its geographical coordinates of longitude 110 ° to 111 °.Paracel Islands east longitude 111 ° 30 ' to 112 ° 42'. In this region, a longitude of approximately equal to 106.5km, In other words: Vietnam closest to the "黃沙" and "萬里長沙"17.75km, But do not forget, this long bar district wide 106.5km, Even if the Paracel Islands, also in this region in eastern 53km.

7. Many Chinese map is no Marked south China sea islands, because the Chinese territory too big, If the land and the sea to draw together, Can not show in detail the geographic profile of the South China Sea islands, We specialize in drawing the map of the South China Sea, Oath of China's sovereignty over the South China Sea Islands!

The Map of South and East Ocean Sea Routes was drawn in between 1712-1721 by Qing (Ching) Dynasty Fujian (Fuchien) Province Navy Commander Shi Shibiao, the son of a famous early Qing Dynasty Imperial Officer. This map shows clearly the sea routes, time and decriptions from Chinese coastal ports to Japan, Laos, Vietnam, Indonesia,Brunei, Cambodia and the Phinllipines. In this map, the locations and names of the Southern Sea Islands(Nanhai Zhudao) are very accurate. The map shows clearly Chinese sovereignty over the South China Sea Islands including Nansha Islands, Xisha Islands, Zhongsha Islands and Dongsha Islands.Also note the "long bar area" shown in this map which locates close to the Vietnamese coast, which clearly tells that the so called "Truong Sa" and "Hoang Sa" as shown in the 1838 "Complete Map of Unified Great Nam" are not the Nansha (Spratlys) and Xisha (Paracels) Islands of China at all, but refers to the Pullo Canton near the central Vietnamese coast, which was also once been identified as "dangerous group" and named Paracels before Paracels was used to refer to China's Xisha Islands later in the history.

Republic of China 1935:

Republic of China 1937:

Republic of China 1946:

I personally do not support an international court.As the victors in World War I, China is fully justified reasons, Recovery of the German concession in Shandong, but because at that time China national small and weak, from western countries the manipulation of the Paris peace conference was prescribed by Japan in the shandong inherited Germany all right. Now though China began to rise, but western society has been looking for opportunities to contain China, China can't take the second risks, will Its own sovereignty, Handed over to the Western countries to control international court.

1) You haven't done what I asked: Go to google maps and find the archipelago which you think was mistaken with Paracels, capture your screen and post here.
bcc7d91d84dc52814016406fd25056e1_47652811.hoangsatruongsagiaoduc.jpg

And if you post here the same islands with my 1834 map, your argument is still invalid, and you will lost number 1).

2) You said
Western countries define “Pracel”, Representative regions are different at different times. Before 1851,Western countries will be the bar area (central Vietnam coast, islands and sandbars) called "Pracel"

But in 1831:
The French book "Traité élémentaire de géographie: contenant un abrégé méthodique du Précis de la géographie universelle en huit volumes" (volume 2) was published in Paris, 1831. Page 221 said that: "equal-spaced between Hainan and Cochinchina, Paracels archipelago was depended on Annam Empire". "A une egale distance de la cote de Cochinchine et de l'ile d'Hai-nan, l'archipel de Paracels est une dependance de l'empire d'Annam". No near-coast islands in Central Vietnam is equal-spaced between Vietnamese coast and Hainan, according to 1).

Also, in our maps, the near-coast islands in the Central Vietnam are also drawn and totally separated from Paracel:
bcc7d91d84dc52814016406fd25056e1_47652811.hoangsatruongsagiaoduc.jpg


So, your argument about "Vietnamese Paracel is the bar area (central Vietnam coast, islands and sandbars)" is invalid, you lost in number 2.

3) So you agree that the French mentioned the real Paracel, not the near-coast islands, because of the undeniable fact: No near-coast islands in Central Vietnam is equal-spaced between Vietnamese coast and Hainan.
Problem solved, you lost in number 3).

4)
AnNamDaiQuocHoaDo.jpg

So you still mean that Paracel (Cát Vàng) in this map is just near-coast islands?
Ok so problem solved, you failed, you lost in number 4).

5) Yes, around 200 km, that why we need 3 days 3 nights continuously.
Just do math. 3 days 3 night continuously -> 72 hours.
Speed of a small sailing ship is around 4~6 km/h. With 72 hours continuously in sailing season (you have heavy wind to support you), we can even go for 288~432 km! Nothing is impossible there.

6) Just go to google map and capture the screen that archipelago :whistle:
bcc7d91d84dc52814016406fd25056e1_47652811.hoangsatruongsagiaoduc.jpg

Wait a minute, you have that "near-coast islands" here separated from Paracel while you can't provide other islands. So your argument about "near-coast islands in the Central Vietnam" is invalid. You lost in number 6).

7) I see, you afraid of losing so you don't want to go to international court.
So you loose number 7).

Your 193x maps mean that 193x is the first time you claim Paracel :lol:

In conclusion, you have number 1, 5 left to argue. Come on, I know you can't do it :rofl:
 
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