Zakir Naik's Peace TV fined £300,000 for hate speeches as it pulls out of the UK

[Cookie Monster]

I don't think he prayed. None of us were "prayer-oriented." It was more of a good luck thing. But that's not my issue really.

A good luck thing? Seriously? Going to a temple...to a diety(idol) for "good luck" before an exam or before proposing or whatever...
...that's right up there with "shirk" no matter how u try to word it.

 

[Shantanu_Left]

A good luck thing? Seriously? Going to a temple...to a diety(idol) for "good luck" before an exam or before proposing or whatever...
...that's right up there with "shirk" no matter how u try to word it.

I don't want to get into a debate about what constitutes "shirk." My friend and the ones I'm talking about, they are Muslims for generations but they see no issues visiting a Hindu temple. I don't think they pray before idols. It's like you visit a church as a tourist in Europe. It's not an ordinary temple, it's a popular tourist landmark as well. It welcomes visitors of all religions. Probably something you won't understand as a Pakistani, nor do I expect you to.

Besides the anecdote I shared was about some great times I had shared with my friends back in Mumbai. It is obvious that it is being misinterpreted by random strangers like you. So I shouldn't have brought it up in the first place: I obviously made a mistake. I forgot how mean-spirited the average stranger you meet online can be. Thankfully, that's not the way in the real world.

I don't really like people judging others private beliefs, and I personally took offence to the way you talked about my friend. So off to the ignore bin you go.

 

[Cookie Monster]

I don't want to get into a debate about what constitutes "shirk." My friend and the ones I'm talking about, they are Muslims for generations but they see no issues visiting a Hindu temple. I don't think they pray before idols. It's like you visit a church as a tourist in Europe. It's not an ordinary temple, it's a popular tourist landmark as well. It welcomes visitors of all religions. Probably something you won't understand as a Pakistani, nor do I expect you to.

There is a HUGE difference to visit a temple...out of curiosity...or as a historic landmark...or to marvel at its architecture...
...as opposed to visit it for "good luck" in upcoming events as a habit.

Also I can see ur hate along nationalistic lines...saying I don't understand as a Pakistani...even though that's not even a factor here. I'm saying it as a Muslim...based on Islam's teachings, which are the same for everyone regardless of where u live.

Besides the anecdote I shared was about some great times I had shared with my friends back in Mumbai. It is obvious that it is being misinterpreted by random strangers like you.

Those were ur words...not mine...
...u stated quite clearly that he visited that temple before any upcoming events(like an exam or his proposal to some girl) for good luck.
That is a habitual thing...and is no different than someone going to a shrine(of some Sufi mystic) before an exam or a job interview...as a "good luck". This happens a lot in Pakistan...and again it is against one of the core tenets of Islam.

I don't really like people judging others private beliefs, and I personally took offence to the way you talked about my friend. So off to the ignore bin you go.

I don't really care much that u take offense and ignore me. I'm pointing out a FACT...that Oneness of God is a must in Islam(it is literally in the Kalma one recites upon accepting Islam...that there is no God but God and Muhammad SAW is His Prophet).

As for me judging him...I don't care much. I'm not gonna be the one answering for the deeds of others. On the day of judgment I'll only be answerable to what I did. So I couldn't care less as to what ur friend does or doesn't do.

I'm writing this in response to u saying that he is Muslim...while also describing behaviors that go against Islam...
...I would do the same if someone wrote something about ISIS(not comparing...since they are on the extreme end...just using as an example) beheading ppl and then called them Muslim...I would point out that what they are doing goes against the teachings of Islam.

 

[Shantanu_Left]

There is a HUGE difference to visit a temple...out of curiosity...or as a historic landmark...or to marvel at its architecture...
...as opposed to visit it for "good luck" in upcoming events as a habit.

Fair enough. You made your point.

Also I can see ur hate along nationalistic lines...saying I don't understand as a Pakistani...

No, I'm not anti-Pakistani. I'm probably one of the most pro-Pakistani Indian posters on Defence.pk. I just said that your ideas are very different because as a nation, you are different. Where does "hate" come in?

even though that's not even a factor here. I'm saying it as a Muslim...based on Islam's teachings, which are the same for everyone regardless of where u live.

I don't want to debate theology with anyone on this forum. Nor have I so far.

Those were ur words...not mine...

I am not responsible for your inability to understand context.

.

.. before an exam or a job interview...as a "good luck". This happens a lot in Pakistan...and again it is against one of the core tenets of Islam.

As I said, I get it very well. And you just confessed it happens a lot in Pakistan as well. I myself don't see any issues with anyone having good luck beliefs. That's the way human brains are conditioned, we all like to notice patterns which bring good results. It's really something biological.

But anymore of this with you, I risk getting into a theological debate. As an agnostic, secular person, that's not something I want to do.

.. On the day of judgment I'll only be answerable to what I did. So I couldn't care less as to what ur friend does or doesn't do.

Then why are you wasting your breath trying to argue this over with me? I clearly told you I am not interested in ANY theology.

I'm writing this in response to u saying that he is Muslim...while also describing behaviors that go against Islam...
...I would do the same if someone wrote something about ISIS(not comparing...since they are on the extreme end...just using as an example) beheading ppl and then called them Muslim...I would point out that what they are doing goes against the teachings of Islam.

Maybe you also need to know that in the actual world, many people, Muslims or otherwise, choose not to believe what you do.

It's not for one human being to sit in judgment over another as constitutes the afterlife. You're talking to someone here who doesn't even believe in an afterlife.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Fair enough. You made your point.

No, I'm not anti-Pakistani. I'm probably one of the most pro-Pakistani Indian posters on Defence.pk. I just said that your ideas are very different because as a nation, you are different. Where does "hate" come in?

I don't want to debate theology with anyone on this forum. Nor have I so far.

I am not responsible for your inability to understand context.

As I said, I get it very well. And you just confessed it happens a lot in Pakistan as well. I myself don't see any issues with anyone having good luck beliefs. That's the way human brains are conditioned, we all like to notice patterns which bring good results. It's really something biological.

But anymore of this with you, I risk getting into a theological debate. As an agnostic, secular person, that's not something I want to do.

Then why are you wasting your breath trying to argue this over with me? I clearly told you I am not interested in ANY theology.

Maybe you also need to know that in the actual world, many people, Muslims or otherwise, choose not to believe what you do.

It's not for one human being to sit in judgment over another as constitutes the afterlife. You're talking to someone here who doesn't even believe in an afterlife.

Again...for the nth time...I'm not sitting in judgement of ANYONE. It doesn't matter to me what others believe or do not believe...we each were born with our own free will to do as we please.

So let me try again...as to what I'm saying...
...I'm saying that in order to be a Muslim...by definition u HAVE to follow the Oneness of God.

An example to illustrate my point further would be...if u called a chimpanzee a human just bcuz we share a great portion of our DNA with each other...and I pointed out that by definition a chimpanzee is not a human...does that mean I'm judging that monkey? Or not allowing that monkey to be different than humans(in reference to ur point of others not believing the same thing I do)?...
...No I'm simply pointing out that by definition of what is considered a human...that monkey is not a human.

Keeping in mind that above...in order to be a Muslim one MUST follow a few key things...which includes Oneness of God(which means only turning to Him for all ur needs since He is the only Supreme Power).
If I start going to those hand reading ppl...so that they may help my sinking business.
Or I start praying at a shrine...not paying respect but full on going with the hope that they would fulfill some hope or wish of mine.
Or any other thing along those lines...then I too BY DEFINITION would not be a Muslim.

A recent example that comes to mind...was the news of some Muslim man in India cutting a cake on Eid-al-Adha instead of slaughtering a cow as to not hurt the feelings of his Hindu neighbors. Again there is that issue of "by definition"...
...though his intentions were noble...he still went against one of the core tenets of Islam. Those who can afford to...MUST slaughter an animal and distribute the meat amongst the poor. He could've instead slaughtered a goat or a lamb to achieve that same noble intention.

So in conclusion...what I'm arguing for is the proper use of the term MUSLIM. It means a follower of Islam. Therefore u must follow Islam...if u don't...u r by definition not a Muslim.

 

[Shantanu_Left]

Or any other thing along those lines...then I too BY DEFINITION would not be a Muslim.

I like your debate approach this time. But I think you may be taking yourself too hard. I myself don't believe in fortune tellers, zodiac signs, black cat superstition, or anything of that sort.

But I don't think others who do are not being good Muslims. As you have agreed, we cannot be responsible for the actions of others.

A recent example that comes to mind...was the news of some Muslim man in India cutting a cake on Eid-al-Adha instead of slaughtering a cow as to not hurt the feelings of his Hindu neighbors. Again there is that issue of "by definition"...

I'm with you there. Believe me I really understand the significance of Qurbani..have been invited to many a Muslim home. Besides it's a waste of good goat/sheep that remains uneaten.

So in conclusion...what I'm arguing for is the proper use of the term MUSLIM. It means a follower of Islam. Therefore u must follow Islam...if u don't...u r by definition not a Muslim.

I'm not a Muslim but even by the standards of Islam, you're being extra hard on yourself.

So you mean a person stops being a Muslim if they indulge in adultery, extra-marital sex, alcohol-addiction, pork consumption? I don't think so. That's not the way God's grace is supposed to work. Isn't God all about forgiveness?

I am glad we don't have any misunderstandings now. Good to know you.

 

[Cookie Monster]

I like your debate approach this time. But I think you may be taking yourself too hard. I myself don't believe in fortune tellers, zodiac signs, black cat superstition, or anything of that sort.

But I don't think others who do are not being good Muslims. As you have agreed, we cannot be responsible for the actions of others.


I'm with you there. Believe me I really understand the significance of Qurbani..have been invited to many a Muslim home. Besides it's a waste of good goat/sheep that remains uneaten.





I'm not a Muslim but even by the standards of Islam, you're being extra hard on yourself.

So you mean a person stops being a Muslim if they indulge in adultery, extra-marital sex, alcohol-addiction, pork consumption? I don't think so. That's not the way God's grace is supposed to work. Isn't God all about forgiveness?

I am glad we don't have any misunderstandings now. Good to know you.

Perhaps u need to study Islam my friend...see the confusion here is that u think I'm applying "my view" as to who is a good Muslim and who isn't...which would be judging others...and only God is the judge...not me.

However that is not at all what I'm doing. I'm not using my "personal views" and judging others based on it. Instead I'm using the set of standards set by Islam(I didn't come up with those)...

There are varying degrees of "gunnah"(sins)...there are "gunnah-e-kabeera"(major sins) and "gunnah-e-sagheera"(minor sins). To consider other entities(idols, dieties, good luck charms, spirits, etc.) to have some sort of power...and/or praying to them...or believing in them...basically "shirk" in any form is "gunnah-e-kabeera".

In order to be a Muslim there are 5 core principles...
1) Shahada...the belief that "there is no god but God, and Muhammad is the Messenger of God".
2) Prayer(Salat)
3) Alms(Zakat)
4) Fasting(Sawm)
5) Pilgrimage(Hajj)

As u see that one up there Shahada...is central to Islam. As for other sins u bring up...no doubt God is forgiving. If one sins they can always repent and change their ways. This would even apply to shirk...if one repents and corrects his/her ways...God is forgiving. However u can't continuously violate the central principles of Islam and still claim to be a Muslim.

 

[Shantanu_Left]

Perhaps u need to study Islam my friend...

Thank you for your da'wah. I must respectfully reject.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Thank you for your da'wah. I must respectfully reject.

It wasn't an attempt to convert u or anything...it was to make u understand that my argument isnt based on my personal views but it is rather Islam's teachings. In any case...I feel I have adequately explained myself. No further need to discuss this.

 

[Shantanu_Left]

It wasn't an attempt to convert u or anything...it was to make u understand that my argument isnt based on my personal views but it is rather Islam's teachings. In any case...I feel I have adequately explained myself. No further need to discuss this.

Oh I don't at all mind if you did attempt to proselytize, at least you went about it nicely unlike that hypermoron Afrazul. That boy is really out of his league.

However, by your standards and definition, I'll make a real bad Muslim. I'm not much of a Hindu either, if I write my real opinions about Hinduism on this forum, the mod's will ban me
immediately. Let's just put it this way I enjoy a sinful lifestyle.

Thanks for explaining the 5 pillars of Islam in such a non-intrusive, objective manner. I would only like to conclude by saying I don't think the friend I am talking about is a lesser Muslim because his ideas deviate from standard tenets of Islam. Human beings are more complex than that, which I am sure you follow very well.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Oh I don't at all mind if you did attempt to proselytize, at least you went about it nicely unlike that hypermoron Afrazul. That boy is really out of his league.

Thanks for explaining the 5 pillars of Islam in such a non-intrusive, objective manner. I would only like to conclude by saying I don't think the friend I am talking about is a lesser Muslim because his ideas deviate from standard tenets of Islam. Human beings are more complex than that, which I am sure you follow very well.

No doubt I have my flaws...so do others...in fact one would be hard pressed to find a perfect Muslim...perfect Christian, perfect Jew, perfect Hindu, etc. We humans have a tendency to deviate... especially where it suits us. I'm not trying to showboat my knowledge or my supremacy over others. I'm just as flawed as many others.

However, by your standards and definition, I'll make a real bad Muslim. I'm not much of a Hindu either, if I write my real opinions about Hinduism on this forum, the mod's will ban me
immediately. Let's just put it this way I enjoy a sinful lifestyle.

Again I would like to point out that it is NOT my definition. I didn't come up with it. These are the rules set by Islam...and though there are some grey areas...others are very black and white...
...shirk is among those black and white.

I would only like to conclude by saying I don't think the friend I am talking about is a lesser Muslim because his ideas deviate from standard tenets of Islam.

That right there is the difference. U r arguing based on ur "personal views"...
...I'm not arguing against u based on my "personal views"...rather based on Islam's teachings.

It is the only way to remain objective. If everyone started using their own "personal views"(which would vary greatly depending on culture, upbringing, etc.) then it would become a very subjective matter...and u can never have consensus on anything.

 

[Shantanu_Left]

I'm not trying to showboat my knowledge or my supremacy over others. I'm just as flawed as many others.

That's the only thing I wanted to hear from you.

Again I would like to point out that it is NOT my definition. I didn't come up with it. These are the rules set by Islam...and though there are some grey areas...others are very black and white...
...shirk is among those black and white.

Yes, have understood this point very well.

 

[AfrazulMandal]

There is a HUGE difference to visit a temple...out of curiosity...or as a historic landmark...or to marvel at its architecture...
...as opposed to visit it for "good luck" in upcoming events as a habit.

Also I can see ur hate along nationalistic lines...saying I don't understand as a Pakistani...even though that's not even a factor here. I'm saying it as a Muslim...based on Islam's teachings, which are the same for everyone regardless of where u live.

Those were ur words...not mine...
...u stated quite clearly that he visited that temple before any upcoming events(like an exam or his proposal to some girl) for good luck.
That is a habitual thing...and is no different than someone going to a shrine(of some Sufi mystic) before an exam or a job interview...as a "good luck". This happens a lot in Pakistan...and again it is against one of the core tenets of Islam.

I don't really care much that u take offense and ignore me. I'm pointing out a FACT...that Oneness of God is a must in Islam(it is literally in the Kalma one recites upon accepting Islam...that there is no God but God and Muhammad SAW is His Prophet).

As for me judging him...I don't care much. I'm not gonna be the one answering for the deeds of others. On the day of judgment I'll only be answerable to what I did. So I couldn't care less as to what ur friend does or doesn't do.

I'm writing this in response to u saying that he is Muslim...while also describing behaviors that go against Islam...
...I would do the same if someone wrote something about ISIS(not comparing...since they are on the extreme end...just using as an example) beheading ppl and then called them Muslim...I would point out that what they are doing goes against the teachings of Islam.

Scratch a Hindu liberal and a Sanghi comes out...

 

[Cookie Monster]

That's the only thing I wanted to hear from you.

Odd thing to want but okay.

Yes, have understood this point very well.

I edited my previous post...there's a third part to it...in case u missed it.

 

[Armchair]

I think it would be a major media and propaganda coup if Zakir Naik comes to Pakistan and sets up Peace TV to be viewed worldwide from there.

Imagine how much that would burn the Indians no end. Imagine how many Indian Muslims will start rethinking their hate for Pakistan.