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Y. The big Why?

That could probably be the reason why we don't adopt their culture and way of life like other non-Whites do.
Npw your on to something. The underlying reason is not Islam. Pakistan's are not the only Muslims. Look at Turks. Is Erdogan lesser of a Muslim for wearing "gora" cloths then Mullah Diesel?

The informing reason is the humiliation of the conquest by Western people. Our defeated culture had two choices. Adapt and do better then the invaders [like Turks/Japanese did] or turn inwards and hold a grudge. We decided to hold a grudge. And we still carry it like a chip on our shoulders. It is a complex of defeatism.

Next time you see UN convention. Note the dress codes. The mighty Japs who fought and almost defeated the Americans, the Turks who conquered Europe, the economic tiger called South Korea etc all wear western formal suit and this includes Xi-jinping.

But then watch all the third rate, ex-slave colonies like Ghana, Nigeria, Togo, Senegal, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, UAE etc prancing around in their own "identities".
 
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The only other alternative is if Pakistan adopts the Chinese model.
How are you going to bring Chinese development model to a nation that is lazy and always looking for shortcuts in everything? Chinese are stuck with Communist Party since 1949 while Pakistanis start cursing PTI and demand its removal after enduring only two years. Ayub gave Pakistan long term development, he was called Dog by Pakistanis and forced to resign. Musharraf gave Pakistan best local government system, he was called Dictator and forced to resign. Are you even real?
 
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Is it Westernisation or IQ that determines the prosperity of a nation? If you see the average racial IQ of each nation, those who score highly are ALSO the most developed nations on earth. Those who score poorly also happen to be those nations who have historically been the most backward countries on earth:

 
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And what does that tell us? We were never meant to be islamic republic, religion had nothing to do with the state of Pakistan.
Exactly. Remove all Islamic references from constitution and all laws and then start fresh.
 
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Is it Westernisation or IQ that determines the prosperity of a nation? If you see the average racial IQ of each nation, those who score highly are ALSO the most developed nations on earth. Those who score poorly also happen to be those nations who have historically been the most backward countries on earth:

Exactly. General IQ of a nation is a huge factor how developed it becomes over time
 
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Npw your on to something. The underlying reason is not Islam. Pakistan's are not the only Muslims. Look at Turks. Is Erdogan lesser of a Muslim for wearing "gora" cloths then Mullah Diesel?

The informing reason is the humiliation of the conquest by Western people. Our defeated culture had two choices. Adapt and do better then the invaders [like Turks/Japanese did] or turn inwards and hold a grudge. We decided to hold a grudge. And we still carry it like a chip on our shoulders. It is a complex of defeatism.

Next time you see UN convention. Note the dress codes. The mighty Japs who fought and almost defeated the Americans, the Turks who conquered Europe, the economic tiger called South Korea etc all wear western formal suit and this includes Xi-jinping.

But then watch all the third rate, ex-slave colonies like Ghana, Nigeria, Togo, Senegal, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, UAE etc prancing around in their own "identities".





Agreed. Apart from the last paragraph. All black countries have fully adopted the Western model and way of life. They even only speak English or French as they don't have their own languages.
 
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Exactly. Remove all Islamic references from constitution and all laws and then start fresh.
Exactly. Or implement Islam to the fullest where thief will be walking around without hands. As the idiom goes "adhay teetar adhay batair" . Presently we shout on the top of our voices "we are islamic country" and when the time comes to implement it ....."we can't do this IMF will not help us" "WB will ban us" "UN will discourage us" "West will be very mad"
 
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Exactly. Or implement Islam to the fullest where thief will be walking around without hands. As the idiom goes "adhay teetar adhay batair" . Presently we shout on the top of our voices "we are islamic country" and when the time comes to implement it ....."we can't do this IMF will not help us" "WB will ban us" "UN will discourage us" "West will be very mad"
It's impossible to go all Islamic. Taliban in Afghanistan, Daesh in Syria, Mullahs in Iran and Saudi Arabia have tried it all. It doesn't work in 21st century.
 
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On a lighter note: We have something in our DNA that makes us very resilient to change, maybe someone told us change is Haram. :D

For Pakistan, as compared to other nations there are many different factors at play. I often contemplate on the same thoughts as to what went wrong, as to why we were able to make rapid progress initial and then practically halting down to zero and in some cases maybe even in the opposite direction altogether and some of the other ancillary thoughts in the overall realm of things.

There are many different points of view already out there but I am personally convinced we lost it the day we became "The Islamic Republic of Pakistan". Because it might seem like we merely added the word "Islamic" but in reality, it changed everything. As we never became truly Islamic and left whatever we were and ended up being a hybrid mix of everything yet being nothing. So on every cross road we as a nation keep on hearing notions like "is it islamic thing to do?", "why should we follow West, Islam is better" and many other paradoxical questions and in the end we have been running around in loops; one step forward three steps backward. And the irony is we don't even know the real teachings of Islam.

Nations are built by visionaries, leading the pack while the rest being convinced in the overall idea and marching behind, putting in their bit and collectively the whole society, country, or the nation rises, achieve objectives, and reach places. That is what our founding fathers taught and proved to us as well. That is why initially things were sailing in the right direction, rapid progress was made and goals were being achieved, at-least our course was correct.

Following is the 11th August 1947 speech of our Quaid, he clearly laid down the vision of Pakistan. And if he ever wanted an Islamic Republic he would have said so, I believe his English was not that mediocre that he couldn't spell or pronounce it.
(I am just posting a major chunk of the speech as I personally know a lot of People still have not read his message in its entirety)

"If we want to make this great State of Pakistan happy and prosperous, we should wholly and solely concentrate on the well-being of the people, and especially of the masses and the poor. If you will work in co-operation, forgetting the past, burying the hatchet, you are bound to succeed. If you change your past and work together in a spirit that everyone of you, no matter to what community he belongs, no matter what relations he had with you in the past, no matter what is his colour, caste or creed, is first, second and last a citizen of this State with equal rights, privileges, and obligations, there will be no end to the progress you will make.

I cannot emphasize it too much. We should begin to work in that spirit and in course of time all these angularities of the majority and minority communities, the Hindu community and the Muslim community, because even as regards Muslims you have Pathans, Punjabis, Shia's, Sunnis and so on, and among the Hindus you have Brahmins, Vashnavas, Khatris, also Bengalis, Madrasis and so on, will vanish. Indeed if you ask me, this has been the biggest hindrance in the way of India to attain the freedom and independence and but for this we would have been free people long long ago. No power can hold another nation, and specially a nation of 400 million souls in subjection; nobody could have conquered you, and even if it had happened, nobody could have continued its hold on you for any length of time, but for this. Therefore, we must learn a lesson from this. You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the state.


As you know, history shows that in England, conditions, some time ago, were much worse than those prevailing in India today. The Roman Catholics and the Protestants persecuted each other. Even now there are some states in existence where there are discriminations made and bars imposed against a particular class. Thank God, we are not starting in those days. We are starting in the days where there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one state. The people of England in course of time had to face the realities of the situation and had to discharge the responsibilities and burdens placed upon them by the government of their country and they went through that fire step by step. Today, you might say with justice that Roman Catholics and Protestants do not exist; what exists now is that every man is a citizen, an equal citizen of Great Britain and they are all members of the nation.
Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the state. "

Jinnah, August 11, 1947

Look how beautifully he presented the example of England to the masses and before that while he was explaining the shortcoming of India because of the diverse social fabric, aren't we witnessing the same hindrances in present day Pakistan?. Our Quaid gave us the vision, it is us who distorted it. He was visionary enough to know that the new nation will have very diverse religious and ethnic beliefs and that is why he discarded this whole idea and presented the idea of the state of Pakistan which was above all colors, castes and creeds. That was the identity of Pakistan hence the nation of Pakistan.

All these other matters like corruption are very secondary. So if we are truly an Islamic republic don't we all know the punishment of a thief? when did we implement it? The thieves who have robbed our nation are roaming free living in mansions abroad or within.

We have wasted 70 years and we will waste another 70 until we first decide who we really are only then we can be who we want to be.
Kawa chala hans ki chaal aur apni chaal bhi bhool gya.
 
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@Indus Pakistan
Satan do exist so the new world order despite that we knew it, we are assuming it just a fairy tale.....Cursing ourselves is not the solution but to accept that Satan is the reality and helping our enemy....

We need to establish our own order to get back from where we were by hook or by crook....
Regards,
Mian Ahmed Rattay
 
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I invite the cream of the PDF to answer a simple question. Why -

  • Pakistani society as a whole chooses to fall back on it's own failed culture and history in order the address the terrible state the country is in? Let's call this the desi solution.
  • Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese, Taiwan and other successful countries show no reluctance or shame in openly grabbing Western ideas, reshaping their societies Asian iterations of the West?
The remarkable fact is East Asians did not and do not appear to get caught up in this shame complex we have in our desi cultures in accepting or adopting Western ideas where they clearly are superior to ours? I give some simple examples. The Japanese during the Meiji Restoration effectively aped and transformed Japan into a European outpost in Asia. From fashion, to government, to laws, to science etc everything was copied from the West turning Japan from a medieval feudal society to a modern society.

"The Meiji Restoration was a period of change and modernization for Japan, in which there were set education standards that improved the system for education, and in which there was established a parliament and a different legal system, a new constitution, a highly centralized and bureaucratic government, a well "

The Chinese also went through this process of adopting everuthing Western. The CCP adopted Karl Marx who was a German and had written his Communist Manifesto in London. CCP adopted a Western model with Russian influences - this can be seen in how CCP flag resembles Soviet flag and gave it a Chinese flavour.

Why do Pakistani's struggle with ideas from the West and often even use it as a pejorative. You don't see this in Beijing or Tokyo? Despite arguably Pakistan as a civilization has been historically closer to the West. Islam is a Abrahamic faith along with Christianity and Judaism. Our languages are related to European language families. Even genetically we are part of the wider Western family.

This issue also afflicts most Muslim countries although lesser so then Pakistan. One Muslim country that this does not apply to is Turkey which during the Ataturk period [as can be seen today Turkey is rising star with Istanbul more London on the Bosphorous then Islamabad] went through similiar Western transformation like China did under CCP, Japan during Meiji period.

Note: I include India in this question as well because this applies to that country as well, although not as pronounced as in Pakistan.

@AgNoStiC MuSliM @Black.Mamba @Joe Shearer @Yankee-stani @waz @saiyan0321 etc

First, can u define what western values are u talking about and how r they superior?
Secondly, u seemed to have no idea about Pakistan, here westernization is considered modern, every family that earns some money suddenly become westernized. We copy their culture and their dress, we even love those brands and adopt that consumer and materialistic culture. If anything has destroyed Pakistan, its been this infatuation with westernization. Had we kept on with our culture and language, we would have developed. See how many brown saabs we have that are bigger proponents of westernization than westerners. Its because of such ppl that feel ashamed in their own culture and religion that they copy west and end up being neither.
 
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And what does that tell us? We were never meant to be islamic republic, religion had nothing to do with the state of Pakistan.
Whether it was or was not is moot. What is of import today is that religion in public space is a recipe for disaster. USA was born with a certain constitution that actually excluded good % of it's population. Over time they have changed according to time and experiance.

The problem is religion is every man, every mullah, every jihadi begins to think that he is following the path of Allah and some are prepared to kill and die for Allah. This leads to dozen interpretations fighting and clashing. this creates disunity in a country. The Shia-Sunni scism has not been healed for 1,000 plus years. Countries that want to succeed cannot afford to get caught in this theological minefield.
 
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Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the state. "

Very important points raised here. This particular excerpt is visible on the pathway to all those who visit Jinnah's mausoleum in Khi. These words shouldn't feel alien to any Pakistani.
 
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I agree. But that's the thing, Pakistanis for whatever reason simply cannot adopt Western values, culture, way of life etc. Turks, Arabs, Iranians, East Asians, indians, blacks etc can but for whatever reason, we can't. Have no idea why this is so.

What r u talking about, go to big cities and ull see no difference in dressing and culture to the west. Institutes like lums are more westernized than west. Having bg gf is getting common in city families, see the couple dancing in marriages, see how punjabi and other women threw away dupatta, what culture are u talking about???
The ONLY western values we Pakistanis dont/cant adopt are the ones like honesty, hard work, being truthful, respect, equality, justice. Otherwise whisky and beer are fav of Pakistanis too.
 
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Pakistan has fully adopted the Western systems.

We are a parliamentary democracy, our legal system is from the British, all Higher education in our country is in a foreign language, the best education money can buy in Pakistan is a carbon copy of the British system (O and A levels).

Why is it unsuccessful? Why aren't we as successful as Britain?

The answer is simple. We try to shoe horn off the shelf solutions whereas we need a bespoke solution. Societies evolve into success - you can't airdrop it in.

People might suggest communism in China is an example of a foreign system bringing success but I'd argue that China was already used to an authoritarian system and millions died for its economic reconfiguration.

I'd also argue that our ruling class have taken a minimalist approach to governance. Most of the time they've filled thier pockets. How can any system succeed in such an environment?
 
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