Xi cites Confucius as positive example for modern nation

[Aepsilons]

I don't know about distortion of religious teachings, but generally religious groups are a lot more tame today compared to the brutal nature of ancient times. The Old Testament and Quran are actually quite brutal and contains lots of contradictions. Confucianism was simply transformed from a school of thought by the ruling elites into a class system, so they can retain power. Government officials and scholars were at the top, followed by farmers. Craftsmen, traders and soldiers were looked down upon. Over time, Chinese technological and military power declined as people involved in those fields have low social status. It's not fair to blame Confucius for what later generations did to distort his teachings.

Hello @S10

I believe that there are other significant independent variables that led to the Great Divergence between Europe and Asia, that ultimately led to the Europeans to have the upper hand in technological innovation.

There are academic discourse that espouse developed economies required merchants, traders, to adhere to the enforceable rules. Some would argue that the West had the upper hand because most of the great civilizations in Asia (India, China) had created path dependencies that delayed the adoption of more formal and state enforced legal contracts of a higher stage of economic development in Asia.

Some would argue that the reason for the great divergence was the dichotomy of catalysts in Europe and Asia. Europe was largely populated and had limited natural resources, thus fueled their militaries to not only war with each other for rights to limited resources in Europe, but also to expand overseas. I mean, if we look at the developments made by Vasco De Gama, Prince Henry of Portugal, and Cristobal Colombo (Christopher Columbus) we see that these European cartographer-explorers were interested to find a route to Cathay/India. For what? To tap their much sought after resources. In a way, Europe and the West was spurred to technological development to acquire sought after resources due to the limited amount in their own shores.

If we look at the great civilizations of in the India Subcontinent, as well as in China, we see that the level of urbanization from the 16th century to the 18th century was already quite high, the expansive farming programs initiated by reigning monarchs had ensured the growth of the aristocracy, the scholar elites, namely due to the ubiquitous presence of farmers, merchants, traders. Asian civilizations were rich in natural resources, thus they didn't have the drive to expand technologically because of the lack of perceived threats. If i can cite an example of Admiral Zheng He, the famous Ming-era Eunuch who commanded the Chinese Fleet. Remember the decision of the Chinese Emperor to close the gates to the outside world was because he realized that there was nothing the outside world could offer China. This was due to the fact that China (Cathay) was already self sufficient during the time when the Great Divergence started to manifest by the 16th century. The same can be said of the Great Indian Subcontinent civilizations.

One can argue that Asia's conservatism and bullish progress during the Age of Divergence was due to the fact that Asia, as a whole, was already self reliant. Tho one can argue the role of Confucianism in delaying of development, during such times there really was not much contact with the West/ Outside World that compelled Chinese Civilizations/ Indian Civilizations to industrialize.

@Chinese-Dragon , @TaiShang , @kalu_miah , @Ravi Nair , perhaps you guys can provide some additional input on the dichotomy of development in Asia and the West during the Great Divergence ?

 

[Kolaps]

傻冒一个，我还用google翻译？My Chinese maybe better than yours


I am questionining if you are really from Taiwan, because you know Hanyu pinyin, such as xiansheng. Taiwanese studied 注音， they are not familiar with pinyin.

They are basically the same.

 

[sahaliyan]

The problem is Confucianism is that it was twisted by ruling monarchs to help them suppress dissent, and for elites to maintain power. The original teachings of Confucianism has been changed beyond recognition by various government-controlled scholars throughout the years, discriminating against martial spirit and skills outside of writing poetry and articles. Over time, it turned into a class system and weaken Chinese societal progress. Confucius himself would jump out of his grave if he saw what his teachings had been modified into.

Fun fact, Confucius himself was physically quite powerful and a capable swordsman. His disciples were also specialized in various arts stretching from crafting, maths to martial practices. Funny that these attributes were looked down upon by later false Confucians.

Zhu Xi's neo-Confucianism was criticized many modern scholars,I'm not a big fan of Zhu Xi,but those modern scholars know nothing of Zhu Xi.Zhu Xi said the humans should inhibit greed,he mainly said this to the rulers.And in Chinese history,though those Confucian scholars were weak in fight,but they were among the most loyalty groups,during Mongol-Jin war,the people of Jinshi background were among the highest rate given up their lives for the country.Same for Mongol-Song war.When the Ming dynasty founded,many Confucian scholars refuse to serve in this dynasty,because they thought they should loyal to Yuan dynasty.Same can be said for the end of Ming dynasty.
When Li Zicheng's rebel army came,a Confucian official named Wei Jingyuan said:"“母年八十余矣，当自为计。儿，国大臣，不可以不死。”(Mother,you are more than 80 years old,should take care of yourself.I'm the official of the country,have no right to don't die.)Then he died for the country.
When Qing dynasty ended,one Confucian official named Li Bingjun said:"国亡与亡，义也。“（Die with the country fall,it's the duty.)Then he died for Qing dynasty.Many scholars refuse to serve in the Repulican China,one ot the them is Wang Guowei,who is the greatest scholar of China,suicided himself Wang Guowei - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In the Confucian view,everyone can became a Confucian scholar,a farmer,a craftsman,a merchant,everyone can became Confucian scholars with the 科举 system(examination system),the craftsmen and merchants were look down in Han dynasty,but not in Ming and Qing dynasties,in those dynasties,they were treated equal with the farmers,they can take part in 科举，became civil and military officials.朝为田舍郎，暮登天子堂。（in the morning still a farmer,in the evening became emperor's official),then you can see,one man became official not because of his birth,but by his knowleghe,the Chinese should proud of this achievement.Class system exist in every countries,but one's class can be change,unlike the caste system or the western serf system
Imperial examination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Lure]

So basically you want a social system that cannot compete with those of advanced nations, and you are wondering why it has failed. OK. Keep waiting for superman to save you, but don't force this choice on others.



You cannot overcome prejudice with reason because it is not based on logic.

There is no point in trying to "get into" global mainstream culture. It has already been tried. In the early 2000's there were many Chinese movies in Hollywood and stars like Jet Li, Jackie Chan - did that help in any way? No. The better way is to replace it with a new mainstream - a better mainstream - through hard power.

In early 2000's, no Americans showed any respect whatsoever to Chinese - Jet Li, Jackie Chan were considered successes *despite* their background, not *because* of it. Today, there is at least grudging respect, and among the young, much less prejudice. Was it better media? No, PR today and PR in 2005 were the same and in many cases worse. Was it because of less media bias? No, in 2005 China was barely ever in the Western news. The only thing that has changed is hard power. Once you have hard power, all the rest flow naturally.

That's one of the points that I don't understand. Whenever I'm reading an article about Chinese culture industry, it's almost always about movies. I know that movies are very important, but is it the only aspect? For example food is also an important aspect of culture. Chinese cuisine is being enjoyed by millions in every country. How did you manage that? That was indeed a great success. Apparel is also a very important aspect. For example I see Chinese food everywhere in Istanbul, but no Chinese fashion brand, and the funny thing is 70% of all textile in the world is produced in China.

For food you have mixed traditional Chinese recipes with western gusto and you've made great success. Why can't you make the same thing for fashion? Traditional Chinese clothes mixed with western fashion taste. That might create something awesome.

Also music is very very important. I think even more important than movies. R&B type of things would be funny when mixed with Chinese culture and unsuccessful. But how about producers? I know that Chinese people are hardworking and devoted. Those are the skills that you need to have to become a very good producer. So you can make inroads in music culture. Far east has very specific sounds that can give the much needed innovation to the music industry.

I mean I agree with you about hard power is a factor to calculate. However I insist that it's not the only factor in the calculation.

 

[Aepsilons]

Zhu Xi's neo-Confucianism was criticized many modern scholars,I'm not a big fan of Zhu Xi,but those modern scholars know nothing of Zhu Xi.Zhu Xi said the humans should inhibit greed,he mainly said this to the rulers.And in Chinese history,though those Confucian scholars were weak in fight,but they were among the most loyalty groups,during Mongol-Jin war,the people of Jinshi background were among the highest rate given up their lives for the country.Same for Mongol-Song war.When the Ming dynasty founded,many Confucian scholars refuse to serve in this dynasty,because they thought they should loyal to Yuan dynasty.Same can be said for the end of Ming dynasty.
When Li Zicheng's rebel army came,a Confucian official named Wei Jingyuan said:"“母年八十余矣，当自为计。儿，国大臣，不可以不死。”(Mother,you are more than 80 years old,should take care of yourself.I'm the official of the country,have no right to don't die.)Then he died for the country.
When Qing dynasty ended,one Confucian official named Li Bingjun said:"国亡与亡，义也。“（Die with the country fall,it's the duty.)Then he died for Qing dynasty.Many scholars refuse to serve in the Repulican China,one ot the them is Wang Guowei,who is the greatest scholar of China,suicided himself Wang Guowei - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In the Confucian view,everyone can became a Confucian scholar,a farmer,a craftsman,a merchant,everyone can became Confucian scholars with the 科举 system(examination system),the craftsmen and merchants were look down in Han dynasty,but not in Ming and Qing dynasties,in those dynasties,they were treated equal with the farmers,they can take part in 科举，became civil and military officials.朝为田舍郎，暮登天子堂。（in the morning still a farmer,in the evening became emperor's official),then you can see,one man became official not because of his birth,but by his knowleghe,the Chinese should proud of this achievement.Class system exist in every countries,but one's class can be change,unlike the caste system or the western serf system
Imperial examination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The point is the concept of a social order was not only a characteristic of Eastern societies. Even in the West, there were social classes.

 

[sahaliyan]

The point is the concept of a social order was not only a characteristic of Eastern societies. Even in the West, there were social classes.

My main point is the commoners can became officials and nobility through examination system,so Chinese bureaucracy is not hereditary system
The commoners can become nobility,if they achieved something,the imperial government will give him the noble title(marquis,baron and so on),his descendants can successed the title,but can't become officials until they pass the examination system

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Lol Many Chinese see Mao as the superman to save them,even though Mao brought disaster to them,so what?Mao have more power than the emperors,do the communists force their choice on us?We don't wait for the superman to save us,but we respect the traditions.

What the advanced nations you talk about?UK still has a queen,their national anthem is still God save the queen,so UK is backward country?If you think feminism,gay,lesibian, infant abortion is advanced culture,then I prefer to live in a backward country
Then do you know what is a landlord,I can tell you,I'm from Kaiyuan,Liaoning.My family live in a Manchu villiage,we were live there from the order of emperor Kangxi.Most of us from the same clan.Then in the civil war(or the liberated war),the communists said two families from our clan are landlords,my family was lucky,they were middle farmers(中农）accord to communists,and some families of our clan were poor farmers(贫农）,even though they are same blood,they were divided by classes by the communists.How some farmers became the so-called landlords?Because of hard working and clever brains.Now I think you know very well how the families of so-called landlords treated before the 1980,the communists treated them like dirts,worse than the high caste Hindus treat Dalits.It's the first time in China,punish hard working.Thanks to Deng abolish this retard system.

The supreme question is: if conservatism is so good, why did it fail?

UK is a constitutional monarchy. You want a constitutional monarchy? For what? No additional governance for additional cost, LOL. The Chinese people turned their backs, collectively, on that model. I would rather be like the US. And yes, tolerance of feminism, different sexual orientations and abortion are all aspects of advanced culture. Why should the actions of others concern me, if they don't harm me in any way? That is the greatest justification for social freedom and economic restraint - the new direction of Chinese society. Don't like it? Feel FREE to move away - this isn't Man Qing, there is no 海禁, you can do whatever you want. That's the beauty of our society - it gives the freedom to speak, even to those who want to abolish freedom for others. In your own "perfect" society, you would be ostracized or jailed for having an opposing view.

That's one of the points that I don't understand. Whenever I'm reading an article about Chinese culture industry, it's almost always about movies. I know that movies are very important, but is it the only aspect? For example food is also an important aspect of culture. Chinese cuisine is being enjoyed by millions in every country. How did you manage that? That was indeed a great success. Apparel is also a very important aspect. For example I see Chinese food everywhere in Istanbul, but no Chinese fashion brand, and the funny thing is 70% of all textile in the world is produced in China.

For food you have mixed traditional Chinese recipes with western gusto and you've made great success. Why can't you make the same thing for fashion? Traditional Chinese clothes mixed with western fashion taste. That might create something awesome.

Also music is very very important. I think even more important than movies. R&B type of things would be funny when mixed with Chinese culture and unsuccessful. But how about producers? I know that Chinese people are hardworking and devoted. Those are the skills that you need to have to become a very good producer. So you can make inroads in music culture. Far east has very specific sounds that can give the much needed innovation to the music industry.

I mean I agree with you about hard power is a factor to calculate. However I insist that it's not the only factor in the calculation.

There are Chinese textile brands but they are mostly sports brands such as Li Ning and 361. Also, you don't associate clothes or food as cultural products the way literature (including movies) are. Literature is a direct cultural product, while there is basically no difference between wearing Li Ning and wearing Nike other than who gets the money - a basketball shoe is a basketball shoe.

 

[Lure]

The supreme question is: if conservatism is so good, why did it fail?

UK is a constitutional monarchy. You want a constitutional monarchy? For what? No additional governance for additional cost, LOL. The Chinese people turned their backs, collectively, on that model. I would rather be like the US. And yes, tolerance of feminism, different sexual orientations and abortion are all aspects of advanced culture. Why should the actions of others concern me, if they don't harm me in any way? That is the greatest justification for social freedom and economic restraint - the new direction of Chinese society. Don't like it? Feel FREE to move away - this isn't Man Qing, there is no 海禁, you can do whatever you want. That's the beauty of our society - it gives the freedom to speak, even to those who want to abolish freedom for others. In your own "perfect" society, you would be ostracized or jailed for having an opposing view.



There are Chinese textile brands but they are mostly sports brands such as Li Ning and 361. Also, you don't associate clothes or food as cultural products the way literature (including movies) are. Literature is a direct cultural product, while there is basically no difference between wearing Li Ning and wearing Nike other than who gets the money - a basketball shoe is a basketball shoe.

I know there should be a lot of Chinese textile brands in China. I also know Li Ning (but haven't heard 361 though). However there is no Li Ning store here in Istanbul. What I've meant was making globally recognized brands.

Fashion is much more important than you think. Take a look at Vera Wang. She is one of the most successful Chinese Americans and she is referenced in lot's of American movies or series. Don't underestimate the clothing. It does make a huge impact in capitalist economies and directly embeds you into popular culture. What I've meant was having good designers that can actually put Chinese culture into the apparel. But with slight differences then that mainstream clothing in the west. People tend to buy things that they buy before, they don't like making huge changes. Of course if you make a basketball shoe, just like the Americans do it you don't contribute anything.

You should diversify the assets. Don't put all your eggs into one basket. Movies are important and should be focused as I've said. But only focusing on movies will bring you nowhere. Japan is a good example in this. If you are not specifically interested in East Asian movies you probably wouldn't have watched a Japanese movie in your life. But how about Animes? Everyone watched Japanese cartoons in their childhood. You see? They weren't successful at movies but they made a huge inroad from cartoons.

I mean come on don't underestimate yourselves. You have taught all the world to eat with chop sticks. You can try to make more inroads despite the stereotypes and discrimination.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

I know there should be a lot of Chinese textile brands in China. I also know Li Ning (but haven't heard 361 though). However there is no Li Ning store here in Istanbul. What I've meant was making globally recognized brands.

Fashion is much more important than you think. Take a look at Vera Wang. She is one of the most successful Chinese Americans and she is referenced in lot's of American movies or series. Don't underestimate the clothing. It does make a huge impact in capitalist economies and directly embeds you into popular culture. What I've meant was having good designers that can actually put Chinese culture into the apparel. But with slight differences then that mainstream clothing in the west. People tend to buy things that they buy before, they don't like making huge changes. Of course if you make a basketball shoe, just like the Americans do it you don't contribute anything.

You should diversify the assets. Don't put all your eggs into one basket. Movies are important and should be focused as I've said. But only focusing on movies will bring you nowhere. Japan is a good example in this. If you are not specifically interested in East Asian movies you probably wouldn't have watched a Japanese movie in your life. But how about Animes? Everyone watched Japanese cartoons in their childhood. You see? They weren't successful at movies but they made a huge inroad from cartoons.

I mean come on don't underestimate yourselves. You have taught all the world to eat with chop sticks. You can try to make more inroads despite the stereotypes and discrimination.

Fashion is extremely hard to go into because the global media defines who is beautiful and who is not, and by extension, whose clothing is attractive or not.

Just remember: lots of people don't like the Koch brothers in the US. Yet Koch industries is one of the strongest companies in chemicals, materials and engineering.

 

[sahaliyan]

Why I can't post reply in this thread?
This message is awaiting moderator approval, and is invisible to normal visitors.

I'm already said monarch is important in anciet China,and I explain why monarch is important in anciet China,not in modern China.
And sorry to you,the social freedom not means you can do everything,yes,I can careless someone be gay,but the law shouldn't legalize the same sex marriage.And abortion should be considered as mueder,moralty is important in a society,I don't want disease of modern western society spread in China
And you don't care the real freedom of others and you don't understand it,so you can't accept different views,it's the reason you call others "move away" ,the real person want to abolish other people's freedom here is you

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Why I can't post reply in this thread?
This message is awaiting moderator approval, and is invisible to normal visitors.

I'm already said monarch is important in anciet China,and I explain why monarch is important in anciet China,not in modern China.
And sorry to you,the social freedom not means you can do everything,yes,I can careless someone be gay,but the law shouldn't legalize the same sex marriage.And abortion should be considered as mueder,moralty is important in a society,I don't want disease of modern western society spread in China
And you don't care the real freedom of others and you don't understand it,so you can't accept different views,it's the reason you call others "move away" ,the real person want to abolish other people's freedom here is you

Why is abortion murder? So if someone gets raped against their will, they must bear the child of their rapist. OK. Should women go to school? What about hold jobs? Compete with men in the market place? Yes or no? Yes? Then you are not a true hardcore Confucian. No? Then you are taking away people's freedoms.

See, I'm not abolishing anyone's freedoms because I don't set the rules, and the current rules favor me. I hope you realize there's nothing preventing you from living like a true Confucian: talking only in 文言文, wearing only 汉服, sleeping in a mud house, forcing your kids to absolutely obey you, etc. You are only mad that you cannot impose your views on other people and force them to live the same way. I'm perfectly fine with others acting exactly as you described - I'm not fine with people that want to impose that on me.

 

[Jlaw]

And the Chinese people replaced Confucius with Mao.

Mao's Little Red Book was credited with miraculous powers, from curing cancer tumors to help workers raise sinking Shanghai nearly an inch.

The Mao Cult

Citizens were 'encouraged' to pray to Mao's portrait, which was mandatory in every home.

Chairman Mao: How the mango came to symbolize loyalty to his government

Mao was practically the peer of Jesus.

At least Mao was real person unlike that fictional character @Nihonjin1051 and other fools believe in.

 

[sahaliyan]

Why is abortion murder? So if someone gets raped against their will, they must bear the child of their rapist. OK. Should women go to school? What about hold jobs? Compete with men in the market place? Yes or no? Yes? Then you are not a true hardcore Confucian. No? Then you are taking away people's freedoms.

See, I'm not abolishing anyone's freedoms because I don't set the rules, and the current rules favor me. I hope you realize there's nothing preventing you from living like a true Confucian: talking only in 文言文, wearing only 汉服, sleeping in a mud house, forcing your kids to absolutely obey you, etc. You are only mad that you cannot impose your views on other people and force them to live the same way. I'm perfectly fine with others acting exactly as you described - I'm not fine with people that want to impose that on me.

Rape is another thing,most abortions today are not because of rape,but because of other reasons,and it's one of the reasons modern society has a low birth rate.
I do believe men and women should be equal in law,but then again men and women are different,the men are strong,more independent，can be frightened by the pressure .The women are not,it's unfair for women to compete with men in the market,the real equality is men have their places in society,the women have their places,the women's places in house,in home，it's the real equality.
I'm not Confucianist,I'm favouring it though.Just like I favour Buddhism,but I'm not Buddhist,I'm conservative,believe in family,honour,duty and patriotism.In economic,I believe in small government,large society,believe in market,and don't want too many money throw into welfare for the lazy people(though welfare is still needed,to prevent the revolution).Even I don't like communism,but I'm against the revolution to overthrow current system,I'm all for reform,because revolution is hell.

 

[日の出の国]

Confucianism is the foundation of Chinese culture, but the thought of Mao Zedong advocated 法家思想, causing debilitating Confucianism.

 

[风之南国]

Confucianism is the foundation of Chinese culture, but the thought of Mao Zedong advocated 法家思想, causing debilitating Confucianism.

You are quite right, he caused great damage to the Chinese traditional culture.