Wrong fatwa of Kufr upon Pakistani Constitution

[Sliver]

exactly what "type" of "islam" is the "right" islam? More importantly, who gets to decide this? Who gets to decide the punishment for "wrong interpretation"?

Again, it is not my cup of tea and I am not a muslim. But seeing from an outside perspective this is what I can say:

If a few hundred people watch the same movie, some people absolutely love it, some hate it, some are indifferent and some are ignorant of it. The interpretation of the movie is different for each person and that has got a lot to do with the persons experiences in life.

It looks like all the "different sects" are different interpretations of the same exact source and no one except the "director" knows what is right. sometimes the film is deliberately left open for multiple explanations to be inferred by the people.

Whenever I as the question "which is the right type of islam?", every flavor of islam claims they are right. May be all are right, may be some are, may be none are, may be one is right but at the present moment, we do not know which of them is right. Until we can decide, maybe we should let everyone practice their own interpretation without fear or favor?

 

[Armstrong]

Because Quaid e Azam`s definition of Islam was "Modern progressive Islam" , not medieval Hadith based practices

Quaids counselor on religious issues was Ghulam Ahmed Pervez

Yes , the same Pervez who was declared apostate by the Mullahs for his rejection of Hadith

The same Pervez who preached that Islam was not a typical religion of rituals and superstitious beliefs but was a challenge to the very institution of organized religion.

Who proclaimed that according to Islam all authority rests with "the law of God" as given in the Quran, whereby food and wealth are to be distributed equally to everybody.

Whenever Quaid talked about Islamic democracy and socialism , He did not mean anything like current Islamic Republic of Pakistan

Ghulam Ahmed Pervez was in close contact with Allama Muhammad Iqbal , another rejector of Mullah Islam for which he was declared an apostate too by Deoband & Barelvi scholars

Jinnah and Iqbal rejected traditional Mullah Islam , And ironically Mullahs today try to claim these great personalities as being followers of Mullah Islam !!

Iqbal was a reformer , not a traditionalist ,
In Words of Dr. Ali Shariati (The intellectual behind Iranian revolution) :

If one were to reconstruct the form of Islam which has been made to degenerate in the course of history, re-assemble it in such a way that the spirit could return to a total body, transform the present dazed elements into that spirit as if the trumpet of Israfil were to blow in the 20th century over a dead society and awaken its movement, power, spirit, and meaning, it is, then, that exemplary Muslim personalities will be reconstructed and reborn like Muhammad Iqbal.
The greatest advice of Iqbal to humanity is: Have a heart like Jesus, a thought like Socrates, and a hand like the hand of a Caesar but all in one human being, in one creature of humanity, based upon one spirit in order to attain one goal. That is, Iqbal himself: A man who attains the height of political awareness of his time to the extent that some people believe him to be solely a political figure and a liberated, nationalist leader who is a 20th century anti-colonist. A man who, in philosophical thought, rises to such a high level that he is considered to be a contemporary thinker and philosopher of the same rank as Bergson in the West today or of the same level as Ghazzali in Islamic history.

At the same time, he is a man we regard as being a reformer of Islamic society, who thinks about the conditions of human and Islamic society, a society in which he himself lives and for which he performs the jihad for the salvation, awareness, and liberation of Muslim people.

Yes I know....I know about Pervez & his Tolu-e-Islam !

If I may, are you a Koranist like myself ?

I don't attach any canonical significance to the Hadith - They are, in my opinion riddled with hearsay & may only be given any significance so far as they pass the test of historical evidence & perhaps not even then would the writings of 200 years after the Death of the Prophet (PBUH) attributed to him would be enough to be made a part of religion as opposed to being a part of Historical Tradition without any Religious Over or Undertones !

In that just as we can say that Julius Ceaser stood in front of the Roman Senate at a given point in time & uttered 'thus' & why ? Because we've got multiple sources confirming that he did & therefore on the balance of probabilities it maybe safe to assume that he must've said that !

Likewise the Hadith should be put through the test of historical veracity to determine whether they do or they don't confirm to that & even then they can give us a general context not canonization as Law or being included as the Essentials of Faith !

However that is purely my Opinion of things which may or may not be correct & which s yet to be developed further on !

Can the laws and the system possibly remain static and unchanged over time and not be reviewed , modified and made compatible with the era ? Something , which my friends advocating for God's governance ( what's it anyways ) seem to be suggesting . How exactly is the Allah more supreme in say Caliphate than in democracy ? The Humans run the system in both cases and both have the choice to implement Islam .

I don't think Islam ever gave a 'system' to begin with !

For a system would be time-bound whereas principles would not & therefore it makes perfect sense why it gave you the democratic principle instead of a Westminster like Democratic System !

 

[FaujHistorian]

I don't think Islam ever gave a 'system' to begin with !

For a system would be time-bound whereas principles would not & therefore it makes perfect sense why it gave you the democratic principle instead of a Westminster like Democratic System !

Islam used the same king-system that was prevalent at times.

Khalifa was there for life, and he had dictatorial powers for legislation, judiciary, and executive combined into one person.

Sure some Khalifas were more just than others.

But the SYSTEM was the same medieval monarchy.

And soon it was turned into hereditary monarchy. Heck the Shias wanted it to be property of the family from day-1.

The whole concept of "bait" was riddled with mistakes and misgivings.

And

thus in 2014, that SYSTEM is only good to be placed in museums.


peace

 

[Panther 57]

Profit "Yes", Interest or Ribba No. Ribba is different from Profit. Profit is a fix income, interest has every growing. In most of the cases you will end up paying more interest due to re-occurrence.

Islamic banking is not only profit sharing but profit and loss sharing. Please tell me which islamic bank finances a green field project, unless it is for a politician, which will turn yellow after financing. Again a first hand information. Furthermore, please check how leasing is done by Islamic bank. There is a fixed portion and another is variable both based on Kibor + 4%.

 

[Panther 57]

Instead they have said that it is close to the islamic system. I have a thought on the matter that since lenders loose out in the long run due to currency devaluation if we said for instance you need to borrow 1 million rupees, which equates to one hundred ounces of Gold. when you return the loan you have to return the loan in Gold ie you buy an ounce of gold every month and give it back to the lender or an equivalent amount of money keeping in mind the surrent value of gold.

Exactly what banks are charging you is devaluation of money plus their profit which is not fixed but on percentage basis. When they pay you, it is half of the devaluation money. So there is no difference between either of the banks. Both want a collateral 1.5 times the loan disbursed and both do not fund green field project. Both dont share any lossm, if incurred. Normal Banks charge Kibor+2% and Islamic banks charge Kibor +4%. Now which one is better.

To understand RIBA it is very important to understand the circumstances under which it was declared Haram. At that point in time poor were exploited in their hour of need. They were trapped into a system whereby they keep paying interest through out their life; whereas principal amount stays constant. In today's era banks are not in need of money people have to choice of bank and they go to banks to safe guard their money, however fact is not the same. They are doing business on others money. In return they pay 2-4% of profit which is much less then the rate of discount or in other words much less then the rate our currency devaluation. Or which bank offers Qarz Hasna to poor, they do not disburse loans to anyone who cannot provide a higher value collateral AND is able to pay the monthly installments also. Borrower has to prove that he or she is financially sound to return the money. Those who borrow it from bank are either doing it for the purpose of setting up business, industry or procure luxuries without spending the whole amount from their own kitty. At the end they are enjoying without any initial investment. Now tell me where exploitation of poor comes in here. In fact banks are scratching the backs of those who have money and poor people are not allowed to enter the bank.

In my opinion no loans should be given to those who have enough money to fund their own project. This will keep the consumer price low. A person who puts up a project through bank loan has to return about 12-15% on the loan then he wants to earn 30-40% profit so end product is topped up with margin of more than 50% before it reaches the consumer. A very important factor in price hike and inflation. It is substantiated by the fact that during global economic depression in 2008 whole of the world (except Pakistan) brought their interest rates down to 0.5% -1.5% so that prices come down and consumer activities are stimulated.

However it needs to be discussed in detail with a Mufti as there may be problems which i am unaware of. However the other system where you part buy and part rent your house is islamic(as per my very limited knowledge) as they have A RIGHT TO ASSIGN WHATEVER VALUE THEY WANT TO THE PROPERTY.

It is the perception. In fact all calculations are done in the same way as normal bank and then divided into two portion i.e. return of product cost and rental. And by the way in Islamic economic system no one has a right to put a self declared value of things. Islam insists on fair and competitive trade. Condemns profiteering.

 

[forcetrip]

This shariah game is only fun when your banks are overflowing with money. Who do you think will get loans interest free from banks? The common folks? Or the Islamic guys who want to take massive loans? Islamic corruption will only destroy what little taxes are collected to furnishing foreign loans. Those guys don't fall for unrealistic fairy-tale living folks. This country needs to stop acting like we hit a Saudi oil nerve and get to fixing the country like humanbeings.

 

[MastanKhan]

Taliban supporters (like Orya Maqbool Jan) have now openly started supporting Taliban and declaring that Pakistani Constitution is kufr. When they were asked for their Proofs, then all of them were able to bring Only One Argument of "Bank Interest System" and thus for them Pakistani Constitution is Kafir constitution.

Pakistani Constitution is not kafir, but Interest System is mistake of our Rulers
According to Pakistani Constitution, the federal Sharia court declared interest system as non Islamic. This decision was challenged in the Supreme Court in 90s . And supreme court gave government the time till 2001 to remove the interest system, but our rulers were unable to acomplish this task.
Therefore, if the interest system still in place in Pakistan, then it is not the fault of Pakistani Constitution, but the fault of our rulers. Saudia and UAE have a lot of oil money, but despite trying they are still unable to acomplish this task. The Islamic government of Turkey, the Islamic government of Ikhwans in Egypt, Islamic Iran ... none of them was able to acpomplish this task.

Raising of weapons by Taliban against Pakistani State
Sahih Muslim Hadith
Hadith 4573 Narrated by Awf ibn Malik
The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said: The best of your rulers are those whom you love and who love you, who invoke God's blessings upon you and you invoke His blessings upon them. And the worst of your rulers are those whom you hate and who hate you and whom you curse and who curse you. It was asked (by those present): Shouldn't we overthrow them with the help of the sword? He said: No, as long as they establish prayer among you. If you then find anything detestable in them, you should hate their administration, but do not withdraw yourselves from their obedience.

Taliban claim to be the fighting for the sake of Islam, but Islam and Quran has not gone beyond their throats. This one Hadith is enough to destroy whole Taliban Mentality.

Hi,

USURY is haram in islam----simple interest is not. The money lending system in arabia was interest on top of interest---called sood dar sood at the time of prophet Mohammad----. Usury is a terrible lending system---no doubt that it should be banned but not simple interest.

The pushtuns in pakistan practised this system----the money lenders in india used to do that as well.

A a matter of fact---there were USURY laws in the united states as well some 20 years ago----a lender could not charge more than a certain amount of interest---but the congress changed it in early part of 90's---somewhere around that time.

 

[Fracker]

Fracker bhai

it is extremely important to respect holy books and thus AVOID putting single verse without ever giving proper context (siaqo sabaq), especially when things like economy are being discussed. At least quote enough of material BEFORE and AFTER the verse in question to let the reader understand what the heck is being discussed.

Thank you

Contest is same dear, do and check the versus. It's acceptance which is the issue. Here is the complete versus, tell me if contest is different.

Those who consume interest cannot stand [on the Day of Resurrection] except as one stands who is being beaten by Satan into insanity. That is because they say, "Trade is [just] like interest." But Allah has permitted trade and has forbidden interest. So whoever has received an admonition from his Lord and desists may have what is past, and his affair rests with Allah . But whoever returns to [dealing in interest or usury] - those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide eternally therein

Islamic banking is not only profit sharing but profit and loss sharing. Please tell me which islamic bank finances a green field project, unless it is for a politician, which will turn yellow after financing. Again a first hand information. Furthermore, please check how leasing is done by Islamic bank. There is a fixed portion and another is variable both based on Kibor + 4%.

As per the Law, points, which speaks about both Profit Plus Loss. (PS: I work in a bank). And Islamic Bankers are traders, they will only go for where there is profit. But if you see your agreement Loss Clauses are also there in the agreement. I don't see that an issue.

I know there are some serious problems, like insurance, and some are specific to some banks only where they give cash even which is not allowed. But problem is, we have to start somewhere, atleast from somewhere to fix things. Improvements can come over the period and maturity. I still believe if there are two things from where to choose we should go for Islamic one.

 

[MastanKhan]

The question was simple , mate . Is democracy unislamic and if so , why ? Just because of a parliament in which humans are deciding the laws to be implemented ? Use the same to interpret and implement Islamic laws and system and run the affairs of a state - whatever the majority wants . What is so unique about " Caliphate " . My disappointment is due to the fact that most of the people with that thought pattern are usually against modernity and walking hand in hand with the civilization ( interpret it any way you want ) which makes them equal with a Madarsa graduate going against the system just because he cant compete in the society because of mind being stuck in 6th century !

No Islamic law is static or carved in stone to suggest that it cant be modified ( whilst remaining same in principle ) as per the requirements of the era , it is enforced in . This keeping it " irreversible " and static is the prime reason that the Muslim world is now fighting against the militants who want to impose that Islam in today's era which is simple not compatible in that form , since well the requirements have changed with the time .

There was no need to feel offended or think that somehow the title had gone over my head . This is a forum and we are here to discuss/debate . You make a detailed judgement and then say , that you do not want to debate over it , seriously mate ?



Who decides the representatives sitting in the parliament ? The British Crown or the people of Pakistan ? If they haven't voted for religious parties who can then implement the Islamic system and laws in the same democracy in the last 60+ years , then how is it the fault of the system of governance ? This is what the public wants ! Whats with this " my way or the highway " attitude to declare the system being " not right " ?

Hi,

Thank you----there is no such thing as islamic law----or shariah law---that was the law of the arabs.

Pakistanis need justice---the problem in getting justice is not in the enforcement of shariah law or lack of it----it is due the lack of a back bone in the prime minister of pakistan who cannot enforce any law.

The problem with shariah enforcers is that the first thing they want to do is to STONE women---that is all they want to do----. There are a million and one other problems destroying the society---but all the taliban want to do is to suppress women.

More than half the taliban are active in sodomy---pornography---stealing and robbing----drugs and drug smuggling---they have no issues with these evils.

The taliban don't have a war waging against corrupt officials---criminals who have looted and plundered the nation---they don't have a problem with criminals who have built sub standard items for the state or those who mix harmful items in food----but the only thing they know of are stoning the women for fornication and whipping them for not covering up---they don't have a problem with those who have destroyed the railways or the air force.

But say talk about a woman wholding her bare hand out of the burqa---and they are ready to chop it up.



You know how mentally sick the muslim community is----they will argue about the intricacies of interest and sood and shariah a million times----but none will fight for the justice for the weak and the poor----.

That is why these muslims are cursed all over the world---. They are suffering from the wrath of Allah---for they have not provided HIS weak and the poor with justice and equality---.

For that reason---the muslims all over the world will stay cursed.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Contest is same dear, do and check the versus. It's acceptance which is the issue. Here is the complete versus, tell me if contest is different.

Those who consume interest cannot stand [on the Day of Resurrection] except as one stands who is being beaten by Satan into insanity. That is because they say, "Trade is [just] like interest." But Allah has permitted trade and has forbidden interest. So whoever has received an admonition from his Lord and desists may have what is past, and his affair rests with Allah . But whoever returns to [dealing in interest or usury] - those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide eternally therein

.

Again you are quoting just one verse. Just one single verse can never explain and provide the context.

Start from 261, then read it and understand the context.

Also you keep on trnslating the term as interest. But it is not. It is usury.


Thank you

Islamic banking is not only profit sharing but profit and loss sharing. Please tell me which islamic bank finances a green field project, unless it is for a politician, which will turn yellow after financing. Again a first hand information. Furthermore, please check how leasing is done by Islamic bank. There is a fixed portion and another is variable both based on Kibor + 4%.

Such discussions are useless bro

There are accounts for profit loss in traditional banking

And then there are fixed income accounts.

And people should have the option to put their money in fixed accounts or profit loss account.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Islam used the same king-system that was prevalent at times.
Khalifa was there for life, and he had dictatorial powers for legislation, judiciary, and executive combined into one person.
Sure some Khalifas were more just than others.
But the SYSTEM was the same medieval monarchy.

Early Arab Muslims used the same king -system ..........
Whatever early Arab Muslims did was not necessarily "Islam"
They absorbed Islam into their political system in accordance with the needs of time and their geography and customs
If we want Islam , We need to absorb Islam into our system in accordance with the needs of our time and geography/culture

thus in 2014, that SYSTEM is only good to be placed in museums

That system fell apart in less than twenty years .
The strength of that system was derived from Islam . The weaknesses from Arab tribal culture
And we try to derive our Islam from the system which was a mixture of Arab tribalism and Islamic spirit .....
hence all the confusion

I don't attach any canonical significance to the Hadith - They are, in my opinion riddled with hearsay & may only be given any significance so far as they pass the test of historical evidence & perhaps not even then would the writings of 200 years after the Death of the Prophet (PBUH) attributed to him would be enough to be made a part of religion as opposed to being a part of Historical Tradition without any Religious Over or Undertones !
In that just as we can say that Julius Ceaser stood in front of the Roman Senate at a given point in time & uttered 'thus' & why ? Because we've got multiple sources confirming that he did & therefore on the balance of probabilities it maybe safe to assume that he must've said that !
Likewise the Hadith should be put through the test of historical veracity to determine whether they do or they don't confirm to that & even then they can give us a general context not canonization as Law or being included as the Essentials of Faith !
However that is purely my Opinion of things which may or may not be correct & which s yet to be developed further on !

A rational approach indeed !!

 

[Fracker]

Again you are quoting just one verse. Just one single verse can never explain and provide the context.

Start from 261, then read it and understand the context.

Also you keep on trnslating the term as interest. But it is not. It is usury.


Thank you

Ohh I get it, it's an comprehension issue to you. Please learn some english or arabic word usury (whatever is the issue), then come and dictate me. I thought there is something which you wanna point out which i missed laterly. from 261-274, Allah clearly speak about charity & Trade, while later on Allah tell us to differentiate between interest (or say Interest on interest, which is causing you issue i guess) & Trade.

for more read this & then speak.

http://www.alim.org/library/quran/AlQuran-tafsir/TIK/2/275

PS: I am not a Scholar or something, but i know what interest means in banking term.

 

[xyxmt]

post ignored for childish trolling.

lol hahaha
this is trolling, and you stupid same answers to everything isnt?
dude you brain is frozen in time and you keep repeating the last thought you had before the freeze, like a broken record, still totally nonsense

So its the way of making profit but in a roundabout manner.

Well still the point is it can be islamized but is it in any way better? Or it just imposes more costs to the end consumer in its roundabout method of creating the same end result.

Also the fact is todays world is more dependent on trade, limiting ones opportunities by barriers such as this would restrict a countries potential.

Only for the sake of appeasing mullahs, ruining ones economy doesnt seem a bright idea to me.

Just sayin.

Like I said it does not put any barriers whatsoever, for example I inquired about Islamic mortgage in Canada and here is how it works. you pay 25% down so you own 25% of that property, you make mortgage payment which is called rent on 75% and plus you pay some more towards your principle. So when I worked out Islamic and capitalistic banking, my mortgage stood the same for 25 years mortgage. For trade you just pay pay service charges anyway its not called interest.

 

[PWFI]

Sorry to make this personal.

But your arguments are now bordering silliness.

In 3 years while living in a strictly secular country you are suddenly an authority now?

And authority to a point to shout and curse at those who have witnessed first hand the hellish implementation of Islamism?

Wow

I should admire French education system for preparing such gems

This is assuming that Islamist really learn anything from the French education system

I will take it as a compliment

 

[FaujHistorian]

Ohh I get it, it's an comprehension issue to you. Please learn some english or arabic word usury (whatever is the issue), then come and dictate me..

No personal attacks please.

I have been respectful in letting you know that one SHOULD NOT quote single verses.

2:275 is part of a s"story" that Allah swt is relaying to us. And you must start reading the whole section, right after Allah showed the miracle of creating life.

Thank you.

p.s.
Islamist scholars with perhaps an exception of one or two are the most despicable people on earth

They are like the hypcrites of Mohammad pbuh time. Don't be their follower.