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Wow, an OPPO smartphone factory tour...

You missed my point. Lee was not a theorist. He was a practitioner. Lee didn't write bullshit books. He didn't like theories. Lee DID it. He DELIVERED. He succeeded because he UNDERSTOOD.

Sociologists are not experts; they are bullshitters. The only thing these liberal arts types are good at is bullshitting.

Nothing in India has changed to the extent that would make Lee wrong about India. Nothing at all. Indians are still argumentative, fragmented, beholden to the caste system, have low literacy and numeracy rates, poor education levels, poor nutrition, and poor health care. All of these things are the same and are unlikely to improve drastically, and therefore India's potential is far inferior to that of China. Lee was and remains absolutely correct in his assessment.

Indians are argumentative (I think its a great thing rather than kowtowing to someone else....... besides you seem to have a Indian genes as well as you are quiet good argumentation and I am loving it).. because we are a democracy and we would argue. Why do you feel things have not changed..... Lee said this in the early 2000s after which growth has really picked up... people's aspirations have changed. Literacy rates have picked up (gross enrolment rates in schools are close to 96% as per independent stats not govt figures (read the census data of 2011 for literacy rates), I agree we need to work on nutrition and healthcare and India is not without flaws..... but domestic politics is moving in that direction

And about the caste system as I mentioned earlier China also had a caste system as was illustrated in the earlier example of illiterate peasants.

Besides this if you rely on individuals to deliver then the system would be shaky, you need institutions for sustainable growth
 
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Indians are argumentative (I think its a great thing rather than kowtowing to someone else....... besides you seem to have a Indian genes as well as you are quiet good argumentation and I am loving it).. because we are a democracy and we would argue. Why do you feel things have not changed..... Lee said this in the early 2000s after which growth has really picked up... people's aspirations have changed. Literacy rates have picked up (gross enrolment rates in schools are close to 96% as per independent stats not govt figures (read the census data of 2011 for literacy rates), I agree we need to work on nutrition and healthcare and India is not without flaws..... but domestic politics is moving in that direction

And about the caste system as I mentioned earlier China also had a caste system as was illustrated in the earlier example of illiterate peasants.

Besides this if you rely on individuals to deliver then the system would be shaky, you need institutions for sustainable growth


So, you agree that India will be a superpower by 2020?
 
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Replace China with India in the above quote and you have the same story...... we had many foretelling the breakup of India as late as the 1980s...... today we have a cohesive and focused country..... we may appear to be argumentative and we certainly are much more noisy but I think we are moving in the right direction we will reach the same productivity levels as China in a decade and a half

It is going to be a mission impossible, given the fact that 80-90% of Indian labor force are still working in "informal sectors" and many of them unskilled even uneducated, not to mention 80% of those who are lucky enough to receive "engineering degree" are considered "unemployable" in international standard. Now you know why the jobs that leave China are not coming to India.
 
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It is going to be a mission impossible, given the fact that 80-90% of Indian labor force are still working in "informal sectors" and many of them unskilled even uneducated, not to mention 80% of those who are lucky enough to receive "engineering degree" are considered "unemployable" in international standard. Now you know why the jobs that leave China are not coming to India.

These unemployable engineers run R&D centres for several MNCs around the world..... we have been global provider of medicines through our pharma industry..... we have been running a top notch medical tourism industry...... we make 22 million automobiles a year..........imagine the potential if we have more skilled people (which is certainly increasing by the year).....

You still have not answered some earlier queries for eg:- why are Chinese companies themselves setting up shops in India...... all you indulge in is rhetoric which makes your arguments hollow.

More like 2012 :D
Also I have not made that statement and hence you will have to question the person who made the statement. I stand by my comments not anyone else and I don't represent anyone else
 
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These unemployable engineers run R&D centres for several MNCs around the world..... we have been global provider of medicines through our pharma industry..... we have been running a top notch medical tourism industry...... we make 22 million automobiles a year..........imagine the potential if we have more skilled people (which is certainly increasing by the year).....

You still have not answered some earlier queries for eg:- why are Chinese companies themselves setting up shops in India...... all you indulge in is rhetoric which makes your arguments hollow.

With a population of 1.3 billion, India is bound to have some smart people (within those 20% employable?), but too bad many of them are working for foreign companies instead of contributing to their own motherland. We all know about story of Indian's pharmaceuticals industry, and to be honest, it is really nothing to write home about.

India makes 22 million automobiles a year? Are you talking about two wheelers? Chinese companies are setting up shops in India, because they see business opportunities in India and because India gov required them to if they want to sell in India. Is it hard to figure out?

India has the "potential", but how to reach that potential is a billion dollar question. Your governments have tried to answer this questions for 70 years already, and when it comes to manufacturing, any solution may just be too little, too late. Remember you guys were proud of yourself as "The Office Of the World" 10-15 years back? Now the "office" is moving out, but the "factory" is not moving in.
 
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With a population of 1.3 billion, India is bound to have some smart people (within those 20% employable?), but too bad many of them are working for foreign companies instead of contributing to their own motherland. We all know about story of Indian's pharmaceuticals industry, and to be honest, it is really nothing to write home about.

India makes 22 million automobiles a year? Are you talking about two wheelers? Chinese companies are setting up shops in India, because they see business opportunities in India and because India gov required them to if they want to sell in India. Is it hard to figure out?

India has the "potential", but how to reach that potential is a billion dollar question. Your governments have tried to answer this questions for 70 years already, and when it comes to manufacturing, any solution may just be too little, too late. Remember you guys were proud of yourself as "The Office Of the World" 10-15 years back? Now the "office" is moving out, but the "factory" is not moving in.

I reiterate my point high IQ is not inborn at all, its just a matter of environment

About the Indian pharmaceutical industry, it is the largest generics industry in the world and we have really good biotech (as chemicals based medicine is not going to be that useful) startups as well. While I agree on the fact that smarter people in India should be working for domestic companies...... but this too will have its spin off effect in the years to come and hence its just laying the foundation for private sector R&D investments in India through a demonstration effect

Actually it was 23 million (including two wheelers I must admit) until March 2015 (Indian fiscal year starts in April and ends in March)..... still growing relatively fast at 7% in the year ended March 2015

I think it is hard to understand......... India does not have any potential to grow and yet the Chinese companies are setting up shops in India? you need to answer queries more specifically and with less contradiction

Our governments (have been mostly socialist and autarkic) have barely started responding to the economic aspirations of many middle class Indians leave alone thinking about manufacturing. Besides this state intervention isbad for Indian business growth. The state should be stepping back from running businesses and should only be regulating businesses and providing an enabling environment. Also there is this intense competition for investments between various states which has a positive impact (this is likely to grow stronger as there are strong political incentives to do so)........ I agree we need more administrative, police and judicial reforms and we need reforms at the state levels too. But reforms also has to be a continous process

The Indian middle class today is aspirational and very vocal..... we have seen instances of that in the Jessica Lal case, the Anna movement and the churn in the social media (which by the way will increase as the information technology sweeps through the nation..... all thanks to affordable smartphones)

The manufacturing sector will grow as they need to service a huge market here and even the suppliers will move in or will be forced out (by the way in my opinion we should not be export dependent as it can hurt us a lot when things go bad)....... its just a matter of time........
 
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Is oppo , lenovo and huawae better Chinese brand than say ZTE and Xiamoi ? Xiamoi and zte phones are much cheaper.. I wanted to buy Xaimoi mi5 but then this video changed my mind

[video]
 
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With a population of 1.3 billion, India is bound to have some smart people (within those 20% employable?), but too bad many of them are working for foreign companies instead of contributing to their own motherland. We all know about story of Indian's pharmaceuticals industry, and to be honest, it is really nothing to write home about.

India makes 22 million automobiles a year? Are you talking about two wheelers? Chinese companies are setting up shops in India, because they see business opportunities in India and because India gov required them to if they want to sell in India. Is it hard to figure out?

India has the "potential", but how to reach that potential is a billion dollar question. Your governments have tried to answer this questions for 70 years already, and when it comes to manufacturing, any solution may just be too little, too late. Remember you guys were proud of yourself as "The Office Of the World" 10-15 years back? Now the "office" is moving out, but the "factory" is not moving in.

Things are changing fast. Logistics index improving, Human capital improving, skill india program is kicking in. Once the credit/NPA issue is resolved (that was inherited from previous govt) which is hurting employment patterns now somewhat....it should really hit its stride. Thats why in the meantime the focus is on setting up the capacity and removing bottlenecks (might as well get it sorted sooner than later).

w-liberalization-chart-1.jpg


http://www.livemint.com/Politics/0A...middle-class-the-promise-and-the-reality.html

The inflection point of middle class growth is expected to be around 2017 - 2018 by Economist Intelligence Unit....and may have already commenced (will need more data to see).

So the massive leap will be from that year and continue over the following years and decades.
 
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Things are changing fast. Logistics index improving, Human capital improving, skill india program is kicking in. Once the credit/NPA issue is resolved (that was inherited from previous govt) which is hurting employment patterns now somewhat....it should really hit its stride. Thats why in the meantime the focus is on setting up the capacity and removing bottlenecks (might as well get it sorted sooner than later).

Nice to know that India is moving in right direction.

I know Modi administration has introduced many "xyz India" initiatives, but many of those programs are not "quick fix" as many of Indian members believe, rather, they are more like social engineering programs, the success of which rely more on long term fundamental social movement than short term campaign. For example, it will take decades if not generations to improve education quality.

I know many Indian friends like to use India's late start on economic reform as the reason to defend India's apparent falling behind, and believe India would be automatically where China is today 10-15 years from now. China may have started economic reform in late 70's, but its social reform had started long before in 50's, and it is the social reform that fundamentally lay the groundwork for the transformation of China. Without the social reform, India will progress with right policies, but I don't think we are going to see the scale of transformation that we witnessed on China.
 
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I know Modi administration has introduced many "xyz India" initiatives, but many of those programs are not "quick fix" as many of Indian members believe, rather, they are more like social engineering programs, the success of which rely more on long term fundamental social movement than short term campaign. For example, it will take decades if not generations to improve education quality.

What do you expect from most people. Everyone thinks short term and wants quick fixes etc.....not appreciating the momentum and inertia from the previous lethargic (of different degrees) govts even after the 1991 "reforms" that needs a lot more time to be overcome.

The good thing is that Modi at least gets this seeing what he started when he first came to power in his state of Gujarat and how he nurtured and maintained these programs in an additive, self-reflectory and long term way...so he is mindful of this I would say.

I have gone through say the white papers put out by his administrations "think-tank" (NITI aayog) and I compare it with the same from previous govts.

There is a huge qualitative change between the two, most importantly in the details and data collection. Previously it would generally be about 1 - 2 pages of "objectives" and then the body of the report would be mostly vague terminology and some pet scheme successes and talk about "expanding these"....and there would never be a follow up (and 5 years or so down the road everything would be repackaged and relabeled as something new).

But in the new ones I am seeing dedicated and numerical outlays, real genuine acceptance of the failures/problems in brazen words....and actual discussion on the methodology and scaling utilising feedback from people and industry. Previous results are referenced often yearly every 2-years or half years and a few even by quarter.

This for example is how India is now on track to achieve complete electricification by 2017 - 2018 and that ministry is very confident in 24x7 power to everyone by 2019...and its not just empty words...they have let the NGOs and people actually verify their data and give feedback through portals.

The next thing I am looking out for is the final draft of the education policy and also labour reform policy. It will be more important to me than even the GST bill everyone is talking about. I am cautiously hopeful....but I recognise there is a long path ahead and it will take another term of Modi at least to see the real results start to materialise.

Right now the growth and jobs etc are still a carryover from the previous admin...and the "Modi"-fications have yet to kick in a big appreciable way....but being a democracy there has to be some fanfare of the policies and agendas so there is good sustained public support. Thats why I appreciate Modi for being able to accomplish some good positive short term stuff where thats possible by combining various effective strategies.

One for example is the swach bharat program where he has tied in patriotism with sanitation/cleanliness....and there are and will be huge multiplier benefits for this to health. Previous govts completely missed this angle (get country side patriotism and fervour into the whole mix). As a result sanitation coverage went up from about 50% overall to 60 - 65% in just one year (from 2014 to 2015)...a huge leap considering previous years it was going up by say 1% at most.

Now things can be speeded up even more thats true....but I think Modi has genuinely realised that the bureaucracy needs to be improved and made more accountable....and this is the unsexy behind the scenes stuff few people want to read about....but is going on as we speak that is very crucial to do before allotting significant resources (it takes time to weed the good result bringers from the bad ones with pilot projects and finding capable people to replace the bad ones so it can be scaled up en masse).

Again its stuff he did on smaller scale in his home state....and now he is manuevering it on a much bigger scale....but he seems to not ignore either short term or long term programs....but everything is often viewed through the short term by the public of which the defence enthusiasts/nationalists are a small vocal subgroup you interact here....so of course there is going to be a lot of drama and posturing and big talk. But its important to also seek out what exactly is true (and false) or different shades of both behind it all....thats what I seek to do with the posters who I hold to be worthy such as yourself. So hope you understand and have patience and fortitude while discussing on this forum.

I know many Indian friends like to use India's late start on economic reform as the reason to defend India's apparent falling behind, and believe India would be automatically where China is today 10-15 years from now. China may have started economic reform in late 70's, but its social reform had started long before in 50's, and it is the social reform that fundamentally lay the groundwork for the transformation of China. Without the social reform, India will progress with right policies, but I don't think we are going to see the scale of transformation that we witnessed on China.

Yup I agree. But now there is an attitude change given the PM is not from the elite class but from poverty and squalor himself. He appreciates the need for social change...so that everyone can have a road to success like his own story...one from a tea-seller boy to leader of a country.
 
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http://in.reuters.com/article/india-economy-jobs-idINKCN11767R

Jobs elusive as India clings to fastest-growing economy tag
By Rajesh Kumar Singh and Manoj Kumar | NEW DELHI

It's been two years since India emerged as the world's fastest-growing major economy, but the rapid expansion has done little to improve the lot of Ashok Kumar.

Parked up and sitting on the kerb, the 25-year-old truck driver is going nowhere fast. He is the sole breadwinner for the 13 people in his extended family and his monthly salary is stuck at $150.

With new, better-paid jobs hard to come by, Kumar lacks options. He fears becoming unemployed like his elder brother, who recently returned to their village in Uttar Pradesh after months of searching in vain for work.

Data out on Wednesday showed India's economic growth slowed to 7.1 percent in the quarter to June, a 15-month low. That is faster than other major economies, but not fast enough to create enough new jobs to absorb all the one million people who join the workforce every month.

A government survey found that job creation fell by more than two-thirds in 2015. Analysts at HDFC Bank estimate that for every percentage point the economy grows, employment now adds just 0.15 of a percentage point - down from 0.39 in 2000.

It's a major challenge for Prime Minister Narendra Modi, who has promised to create 250 million jobs over the next decade.

"For one job, there are at least 20 candidates," said Kumar. "If you want the job, you can't afford to bargain."

Nearly two-thirds of India's 1.3 billion people are under 35 years old. This rising demographic "bulge" will create the largest working-age population in the world. At the same time China, which has long curbed family size, will age as a society.

Whether this so-called demographic dividend will translate into the kind of economic gains seen in Japan and Korea, or lead to upheavals, depends on India's ability to generate jobs.

Yet, despite average annual growth of 6.5 percent between 1991 and 2013, India added less than half the jobs needed to absorb new job seekers.

MORE WORKERS, FEWER JOBS

Under Modi, India has opened up further to foreign investment, hoping to generate more manufacturing jobs. A loan scheme for small businesses has been set up and there are plans for a $1.5 billion fund for startups.

Modi has also launched a programme to train over 4 million people in different skills in six years.

Pronab Sen, country director for the International Growth Centre, said such measures were "laudable", but they aimed at boosting supply when more demand was needed.

"India has become a demand-starved economy," Sen said. "If there is no demand, there will be no incentive to produce more which, in turn, will mean no new jobs."

The level of desperation for work is staggering. In August, nearly half a million people, including post-graduates, applied for 1,778 jobs as sweepers in the city of Kanpur.

This was not a one-off. Last year, in Uttar Pradesh, 2.3 million people sought 368 low-level government jobs that required a primary education and ability to ride a bicycle.

Competition for such jobs has become fiercer as the public sector's share in formal employment is declining.

Two years of drought has caused distress in farming, while the construction business has suffered a prolonged downturn – making work scarcer in the two sectors that employ the bulk of India's unskilled workforce.

Satellite cities around the capital, like Greater Noida were, until recently, bustling with construction activity.

Now, Greater Noida's skyline is dotted with half-built, abandoned, high-rises. Cranes and diggers stand idle.

In Delhi and the surrounding National Capital Region, housing starts fell 41 percent year-on-year in the first half of the year, according to consultancy Knight Frank. Across India, starts were down 9 percent from a year earlier.

Bhuwan Mahato, a contractor who supplies workers to construction projects around Noida, says demand for labour is down by at least 25 percent.

"I wish I hadn't joined this business," said Mahato, a 30-year-old migrant from the state of Bihar. "But, truthfully, there are no other opportunities, either."

(Writing by Rajesh Kumar Singh; Editing by Douglas Busvine and Simon Cameron-Moore)




 
. . .
http://in.reuters.com/article/india-economy-jobs-idINKCN11767R

Jobs elusive as India clings to fastest-growing economy tag
By Rajesh Kumar Singh and Manoj Kumar | NEW DELHI

It's been two years since India emerged as the world's fastest-growing major economy, but the rapid expansion has done little to improve the lot of Ashok Kumar.

Parked up and sitting on the kerb, the 25-year-old truck driver is going nowhere fast. He is the sole breadwinner for the 13 people in his extended family and his monthly salary is stuck at $150.

With new, better-paid jobs hard to come by, Kumar lacks options. He fears becoming unemployed like his elder brother, who recently returned to their village in Uttar Pradesh after months of searching in vain for work.

Data out on Wednesday showed India's economic growth slowed to 7.1 percent in the quarter to June, a 15-month low. That is faster than other major economies, but not fast enough to create enough new jobs to absorb all the one million people who join the workforce every month.

A government survey found that job creation fell by more than two-thirds in 2015. Analysts at HDFC Bank estimate that for every percentage point the economy grows, employment now adds just 0.15 of a percentage point - down from 0.39 in 2000.

It's a major challenge for Prime Minister Narendra Modi, who has promised to create 250 million jobs over the next decade.

"For one job, there are at least 20 candidates," said Kumar. "If you want the job, you can't afford to bargain."

Nearly two-thirds of India's 1.3 billion people are under 35 years old. This rising demographic "bulge" will create the largest working-age population in the world. At the same time China, which has long curbed family size, will age as a society.

Whether this so-called demographic dividend will translate into the kind of economic gains seen in Japan and Korea, or lead to upheavals, depends on India's ability to generate jobs.

Yet, despite average annual growth of 6.5 percent between 1991 and 2013, India added less than half the jobs needed to absorb new job seekers.

MORE WORKERS, FEWER JOBS

Under Modi, India has opened up further to foreign investment, hoping to generate more manufacturing jobs. A loan scheme for small businesses has been set up and there are plans for a $1.5 billion fund for startups.

Modi has also launched a programme to train over 4 million people in different skills in six years.

Pronab Sen, country director for the International Growth Centre, said such measures were "laudable", but they aimed at boosting supply when more demand was needed.

"India has become a demand-starved economy," Sen said. "If there is no demand, there will be no incentive to produce more which, in turn, will mean no new jobs."

The level of desperation for work is staggering. In August, nearly half a million people, including post-graduates, applied for 1,778 jobs as sweepers in the city of Kanpur.

This was not a one-off. Last year, in Uttar Pradesh, 2.3 million people sought 368 low-level government jobs that required a primary education and ability to ride a bicycle.

Competition for such jobs has become fiercer as the public sector's share in formal employment is declining.

Two years of drought has caused distress in farming, while the construction business has suffered a prolonged downturn – making work scarcer in the two sectors that employ the bulk of India's unskilled workforce.

Satellite cities around the capital, like Greater Noida were, until recently, bustling with construction activity.

Now, Greater Noida's skyline is dotted with half-built, abandoned, high-rises. Cranes and diggers stand idle.

In Delhi and the surrounding National Capital Region, housing starts fell 41 percent year-on-year in the first half of the year, according to consultancy Knight Frank. Across India, starts were down 9 percent from a year earlier.

Bhuwan Mahato, a contractor who supplies workers to construction projects around Noida, says demand for labour is down by at least 25 percent.

"I wish I hadn't joined this business," said Mahato, a 30-year-old migrant from the state of Bihar. "But, truthfully, there are no other opportunities, either."

(Writing by Rajesh Kumar Singh; Editing by Douglas Busvine and Simon Cameron-Moore)






@Nilgiri , if you have time, please read this Reuters recent article. It is quite a different picture from the perspective of people like Ashok Kumar.
 
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