World's most expensive Metro !

[Viny]

@Akheilos: You are so pissed of 6 times the cost, that you ranted almost 9 pages.
Did you saw what kind of metro line is built? See how many kms are highrise, and how many kms its multirise. and then compare with other metros. there are many factors to cost of development, some basics that differentiate the cost are

1. Cost of land acquisition, how much land was available with govt.
2. Availability of existing capital machinery/assets to start with a project.
3. Kms of highrise or multirise has to be built.
4. Cost of raw material at destination
5. Availability and cost of finance for the project.

 

[TankMan]

Blaming on PMLN is idiotic at best knowing the consequence of economical sanction that can barely help the nation to progress.

I'm not blaming PMLN. The point of quoting that article was that the sanctions did not do so much damage and it is wrong to say that they started poverty in the first place. What they did was reduce development, which is why poverty kept increasing as the population increased.

There was a considerable amount of poverty before the sanctions.

Like I said, the Nuclear program was required at that time; to maintain some level of a balance of power and stability in the region. India had developed nukes first and countering them was necessary. Pakistan did not have an option, and blaming whoever was in power (PMLN/Military/PPP - depends on who you ask, everyone likes to take credit for starting the project) for it is pointless.

@Akheilos: You are so pissed of 6 times the cost, that you ranted almost 9 pages.
Did you saw what kind of metro line is built? See how many kms are highrise, and how many kms its multirise. and then compare with other metros. there are many factors to cost of development, some basics that differentiate the cost are

1. Cost of land acquisition, how much land was available with govt.
2. Availability of existing capital machinery/assets to start with a project.
3. Kms of highrise or multirise has to be built.
4. Cost of raw material at destination
5. Availability and cost of finance for the project.

The problem with it is not the cost - it's the fact that despite the cost, it looks like some cheap improvised project that eats up half the road space and is badly planned. They mostly used the existing road space but had to demolish dozens of buildings to make space for it - this would have been very expensive given that the owners had to be paid compensation - and all that in a place as crowded and congested as central Lahore.

Though admittedly the buses themselves are pretty nice and it looks like most of the money was spent on the stations' fancy computerized system. It's good, but not worth the cost; especially not when there are so many other, more important things that need to be done.

 

[xyxmt]

@Leader and @xyxmt both of you really need to calm down
dont bring personal insults in your arguments

when men start to idolize other men (Ewww) then insult comes into play

 

[SHAMK9]

The thing is already built, no point of complaining about it now

 

[Daneshmand]

The problem with it is not the cost - it's the fact that despite the cost, it looks like some cheap improvised project that eats up half the road space and is badly planned. They mostly used the existing road space but had to demolish dozens of buildings to make space for it - this would have been very expensive given that the owners had to be paid compensation - and all that in a place as crowded and congested as central Lahore.
.

That is why long term, the underground subway is better. It is abit costly to go underground but the advantages are numerous: preserving the architecture, minimize surface traffic and congestion, minimize land acquisition costs, minimize running costs since underground trains and structure remain safe from environmental elements, etc etc.

And nowadays with modern TBM technology, tunnels can be built quite fast, cost effectively and even under existing surface structures with minimal disturbance to surface life:

 

[TankMan]

That is why long term, the underground subway is better. It is abit costly to go underground but the advantages are numerous: preserving the architecture, minimize surface traffic and congestion, minimize land acquisition costs, minimize running costs since underground trains and structure remain safe from environmental elements, etc etc.

And nowadays with modern TBM technology, tunnels can be built quite fast, cost effectively and even under existing surface structures with minimal disturbance to surface life:

Agreed, that is why I was saying this before:

One point about the metro is that it supposedly lays some sort of foundation for future mass transit, the truth is that it doesn't. If Lahore continues developing properly, soon it will have to demolish this metro system and replace it with an underground system like many Western cities are doing now. Above ground metro systems create problems, especially when they are so irresponsibly planned and constructed in such dense and congested places as central Lahore.

 

[Daneshmand]

Agreed, that is why I was saying this before:

Oh, I see. I had not read your other comment before. But if things are as what you are saying, it would be a great waste of money. Mass transit should be seen in terms of decades and even century (London or New York subway for instance are century old). And it is not only West that has gone in this direction. Even in Iran, subways are popular are seen as a long term solution to traffic problems.

 

[Finer]

I think one such thread is running....I saw it that is why I am getting angry coz when these projects were announced I was oblivious and didnt even write a word instead gave and walked out of the thread but now more and more thread regarding increased prices than estimated and other issues are arising with some Indians saying our Isb wala project is 6x more expensive ...

Instead of throwing words, perhaps it is better if you back your statements by posting comparatively analysis of cost estimation between Pakistan and other nations as you name it.

Education is non profit entity? Really? What happened to all those jobs you were talking about? Shouldnt educated people fit in?

The only time it is non profit is for the vote bank! Educated thinking society will not repeat their error in voting for looters!

Education is non profit entity, and Pakistan is in debt. Pakistan has to repay loan back with interest.

Quoting a few comments separately doesn't help when you are trying to miss the whole point of the post as whole which i laid out in lengthy post with concise explanation about what happens when Pakistan is in debt, and what is needed to stabilize the economy of Pakistan to survive and only then, prioritize in order to improve the welfare of the state through the benefits which includes the investment of educational sector that comes with thriving economy of Pakistan.

You forgot N.Korea got cut off thanks to them trying to take a punch (via talking only) at America....While Pakistan did no such thing and as many of you talked about even in sanctions Saudi helped us so did other nations ....Yet you people keep ignoring we never were in REAL sanctions....and hence nuclear plant NEVER actually dragged us!

Secondly I have even heard delusional supporters saying that NS started or finished nuclear plant....but I am yet to hear them blame NS for our failure...

There is talk about Nuclear PowerPlant in Karachi, whether it is initiated or not is debatable. There is no information about that. But majority of Karachiites are against Powerplant in Karachi because of several reasons. There is possible that powerplant might be out of the question.

I really think you should research on economic sanction and the side effects of economic sanction comes thank to preparation of Nuclear programs and what ticks USA off in the first place if analyze the comparatively between North Korea and South Korea and their relationships with USA.


The rest of the post which i find not relevant to the pressing concerns while insinuating the impossible tasks with dreaming tactics is hardly deemed as practical solution.

I'm not blaming PMLN. The point of quoting that article was that the sanctions did not do so much damage and it is wrong to say that they started poverty in the first place. What they did was reduce development, which is why poverty kept increasing as the population increased.

There was a considerable amount of poverty before the sanctions.

Like I said, the Nuclear program was required at that time; to maintain some level of a balance of power and stability in the region. India had developed nukes first and countering them was necessary. Pakistan did not have an option, and blaming whoever was in power (PMLN/Military/PPP - depends on who you ask, everyone likes to take credit for starting the project) for it is pointless.

In short, you cannot have both. If you want Nuclear for protection, then be prepared to face the huge price, poverty in huge margins. If you want thriving economy and not Nuclear program, then no chance for economical sanction, therefore economy in Pakistan will be stable.

Pakistan knew the price for pursuant with Nuclear programs, but today, the whole nation has been blaming on democratic political leaders for years when the authority of Pakistan army exerts over those democratic political leaders.

If there is blame, should be placed on Pakistan army, or learn to accept the prices that comes with Nuclear program inviting economical sanctions in many areas that put roadblock on the thriving economy of Pakistan. It is not coincident that thriving economy of Pakistan in 60's is changed to nightmare in 80's with other factors to take account as well.

Pakistan is not gonna progress quickly, not as long as Pakistan continues to remain Nuclear nation. The only thing that can roadblock thriving economy in Pakistan, it is Nuclear program that comes with price, economic sanction.

We all know that Pakistan army has real power over Pakistan, not any democratic political parties. That's why i also call PTI, a bluff.

We gotta give some credits to PMLN that at least it is trying to put some efforts by keeping the nation barely surviving - already in debt. PMLN is the only party that attempted to resurrect the stable economy with too many billion-dollars invested energy projects within few years under the ruling of PMLN that will start operate in the matters of 10 years and above given the process in Pakistan will normalize the economy of Pakistan eventually and Pakistan will be back to game, guaranteed Pakistan army doesn't hijack through its invasion by introducing Marshall law in the middle of functioning democracy system.

Pakistan could do a lot given the word period of Pakistan during the ruling of PPP and Musharraf earlier. Pakistan has come a long way, and i hope PMLN wins next election to gather more invested billion-dollars project for the betterment of Pakistan.

That being said, being patient is needed through the difficult time as no nation can develop within 10 years, let alone 5. USA didn't become developed nation overnight. We have to be patient. It took Canada more than fifty years ever since Great Depression period and now Canada is enjoying its fruit after remained patient during the turmoil period.

We also saw why PTI is not answer to Pakistan as investors are running away from KPK under the ruling of Imran Khan which is not good sign for Pakistan. Due to PTI's misplaced priority, doesn't strike confident to investors at all. I doubt major corporations will be keen to invest their billion dollars on Pakistan under the ruling of PTI.

 

[WishLivePak]

Agreed, that is why I was saying this before:

Simply no.

Underground is awesome, but you very well know the cost. Already people cry over flyovers cost, imagine how far they'll go over underground costs.

Even here in Canada we built some flyover stuff rather than purely underground. We are also planning to build another line to university, and many people familiar with matter have said that it is cheaper to give a free prius to students for years to come than to build this underground rail.

The point is, we cannot charge people in Pakistan enough to compensate for such projects. London and Lahore may have the same population, but remember that costs will nearly be the same (minus labour). But London will charge 3 or more pounds, whereas Lahore will charge 30-100 rupees.

What we could do is, demolish parts of flyovers or whatever and change it to underground, as our economy improves.

Instead of throwing words, perhaps it is better if you back your statements by posting comparatively analysis of cost estimation between Pakistan and other nations as you name it.





Education is non profit entity, and Pakistan is in debt. Pakistan has to repay loan back with interest.

Quoting a few comments separately doesn't help when you are trying to miss the whole point of the post as whole which i laid out in lengthy post with concise explanation about what happens when Pakistan is in debt, and what is needed to stabilize the economy of Pakistan to survive and only then, prioritize in order to improve the welfare of the state through the benefits which includes the investment of educational sector that comes with thriving economy of Pakistan.



There is talk about Nuclear PowerPlant in Karachi, whether it is initiated or not is debatable. There is no information about that. But majority of Karachiites are against Powerplant in Karachi because of several reasons. There is possible that powerplant might be out of the question.

I really think you should research on economic sanction and the side effects of economic sanction comes thank to preparation of Nuclear programs and what ticks USA off in the first place if analyze the comparatively between North Korea and South Korea and their relationships with USA.


The rest of the post which i find not relevant to the pressing concerns while insinuating the impossible tasks with dreaming tactics is hardly deemed as practical solution.



In short, you cannot have both. If you want Nuclear for protection, then be prepared to face the huge price, poverty in huge margins. If you want thriving economy and not Nuclear program, then no chance for economical sanction, therefore economy in Pakistan will be stable.

Pakistan knew the price for pursuant with Nuclear programs, but today, the whole nation has been blaming on democratic political leaders for years when the authority of Pakistan army exerts over those democratic political leaders.

If there is blame, should be placed on Pakistan army, or learn to accept the prices that comes with Nuclear program inviting economical sanctions in many areas that put roadblock on the thriving economy of Pakistan. It is not coincident that thriving economy of Pakistan in 60's is changed to nightmare in 80's with other factors to take account as well.

Pakistan is not gonna progress quickly, not as long as Pakistan continues to remain Nuclear nation. The only thing that can roadblock thriving economy in Pakistan, it is Nuclear program that comes with price, economic sanction.

We all know that Pakistan army has real power over Pakistan, not any democratic political parties. That's why i also call PTI, a bluff.

We gotta give some credits to PMLN that at least it is trying to put some efforts by keeping the nation barely surviving - already in debt. PMLN is the only party that attempted to resurrect the stable economy with too many billion-dollars invested energy projects within few years under the ruling of PMLN that will start operate in the matters of 10 years and above given the process in Pakistan will normalize the economy of Pakistan eventually and Pakistan will be back to game, guaranteed Pakistan army doesn't hijack through its invasion by introducing Marshall law in the middle of functioning democracy system.

Pakistan could do a lot given the word period of Pakistan during the ruling of PPP and Musharraf earlier. Pakistan has come a long way, and i hope PMLN wins next election to gather more invested billion-dollars project for the betterment of Pakistan.

That being said, being patient is needed through the difficult time as no nation can develop within 10 years, let alone 5. USA didn't become developed nation overnight. We have to be patient. It took Canada more than fifty years ever since Great Depression period and now Canada is enjoying its fruit after remained patient during the turmoil period.

We also saw why PTI is not answer to Pakistan as investors are running away from KPK under the ruling of Imran Khan which is not good sign for Pakistan. Due to PTI's misplaced priority, doesn't strike confident to investors at all. I doubt major corporations will be keen to invest their billion dollars on Pakistan under the ruling of PTI.

Actually she made some claim about me earlier as well that I said so and so. So I asked where I said it in the thread and then she said "you usually say it in other threads (something like that"

You going to see a lot of empty words from her.

 

[TankMan]

Simply no.

Underground is awesome, but you very well know the cost. Already people cry over flyovers cost, imagine how far they'll go over underground costs.

Even here in Canada we built some flyover stuff rather than purely underground. We are also planning to build another line to university, and many people familiar with matter have said that it is cheaper to give a free prius to students for years to come than to build this underground rail.

The point is, we cannot charge people in Pakistan enough to compensate for such projects. London and Lahore may have the same population, but remember that costs will nearly be the same (minus labour). But London will charge 3 or more pounds, whereas Lahore will charge 30-100 rupees.

Please refer to @Daneshmand 's post, which is what I was responding to, in which he mentioned a cost-effective way of tunneling and underground systems.

There are flyovers in the west too but they aren't passing through the middle of a densely-populated urban center like Lahore.

I didn't say they should have built an underground metro now, what I said was that when Lahore develops further, it will most likely have to replace this system with an underground one anyway- so perhaps the government should have been a little more far-sighted.

I agree with your point that we can't charge people enough to compensate for it, but that is already happening with this metro system because apparently:
“A passenger pays Rs20 for one-way travel while the government has to pay a subsidy of Rs40,”
Metro Bus Service: Punjab pays Rs5m per day as subsidy - The Express Tribune

My point is that if we are spending so much and losing money anyway, it would be better to either spend it on a more pertinent issue or, if they really want mass transit, spend it on a better and more long-term system that won't be a liability in the future.

What we could do is, demolish parts of flyovers or whatever and change it to underground, as our economy improves.

You mean like a roller-coaster ride, sometimes flyover and sometimes underground? Hell yeah, I'm all for it
On a more serious note, yes, gradual modernization may be a more feasible option. But that is to be done a long time later, in my opinion. For now, what's done is done, and it's better to maintain this metro bus and live with it.

 

[Zarvan]

Please refer to @Daneshmand 's post, which is what I was responding to, in which he mentioned a cost-effective way of tunneling and underground systems.

There are flyovers in the west too but they aren't passing through the middle of a densely-populated urban center like Lahore.

I didn't say they should have built an underground metro now, what I said was that when Lahore develops further, it will most likely have to replace this system with an underground one anyway- so perhaps the government should have been a little more far-sighted.

I agree with your point that we can't charge people enough to compensate for it, but that is already happening with this metro system because apparently:
“A passenger pays Rs20 for one-way travel while the government has to pay a subsidy of Rs40,”
Metro Bus Service: Punjab pays Rs5m per day as subsidy - The Express Tribune

My point is that if we are spending so much and losing money anyway, it would be better to either spend it on a more pertinent issue or, if they really want mass transit, spend it on a better and more long-term system that won't be a liability in the future.


You mean like a roller-coaster ride, sometimes flyover and sometimes underground? Hell yeah, I'm all for it
On a more serious note, yes, gradual modernization may be a more feasible option. But that is to be done a long time later, in my opinion. For now, what's done is done, and it's better to maintain this metro bus and live with it.

Problem is our priority and the way a thing is done. First we need to resolve energy crisis and start establishing industries so people can get jobs bring pace so investor can come and invest improve judical and Tax system and make it easy to do business on what ever scale. And when you are building a thing Government should be neutral not buy stuff from those companies which are owned by those who are in Government

 

[WishLivePak]

Please refer to @Daneshmand 's post, which is what I was responding to, in which he mentioned a cost-effective way of tunneling and underground systems.

There are flyovers in the west too but they aren't passing through the middle of a densely-populated urban center like Lahore.

I didn't say they should have built an underground metro now, what I said was that when Lahore develops further, it will most likely have to replace this system with an underground one anyway- so perhaps the government should have been a little more far-sighted.

I agree with your point that we can't charge people enough to compensate for it, but that is already happening with this metro system because apparently:
“A passenger pays Rs20 for one-way travel while the government has to pay a subsidy of Rs40,”
Metro Bus Service: Punjab pays Rs5m per day as subsidy - The Express Tribune

My point is that if we are spending so much and losing money anyway, it would be better to either spend it on a more pertinent issue or, if they really want mass transit, spend it on a better and more long-term system that won't be a liability in the future.


You mean like a roller-coaster ride, sometimes flyover and sometimes underground? Hell yeah, I'm all for it
On a more serious note, yes, gradual modernization may be a more feasible option. But that is to be done a long time later, in my opinion. For now, what's done is done, and it's better to maintain this metro bus and live with it.

It's not about roller-coaster ride, but cost effectiveness. Some place may be rocky (harder to dig) or have enough room to make flyover. Or the train/bus can make use of land instead, assuming there is free room for it.

Our transit system is both on ground, fly over and underground. This is cost effectiveness is. You build the way it saves most money. Personally I hate underground due to lack of mobile signals, ha.

Please note that that subsidy is based on what one person should pay after it is built. Thus, though we're losing 5m a day, we should not forget that we may never be able to earn the amount that we used to initially build this system. When we build underground system and it is more costly for daily operation (ignoring the initial built cost), gov't will have to pay even more subsidy.

Finally, even for our transit system here, we are only paying 35%~ (fare + advertisement). Rest is subsidy. So it is pretty near to Lahore metro (33% and they don't do advertisement yet). Our fare is about $2.75-$10. Imagine a Lahori paying 250-800 rupees.

 

[Viper0011.]

Problem is our priority and the way a thing is done. First we need to resolve energy crisis and start establishing industries so people can get jobs bring pace so investor can come and invest improve judical and Tax system and make it easy to do business on what ever scale. And when you are building a thing Government should be neutral not buy stuff from those companies which are owned by those who are in Government

I keep getting into arguments with members with "I hate NS", vs. "Let me understand how this works" and its becoming useless.
Allow me to tell you about the American industry boom. Around 1959 I think, former vice president Al-Gore's father than started one of the most significant projects in the history of the US. The highway network. It was built around the entire US, connecting many areas together. Once you have a proper road to go from smaller areas or villages, to bigger cities, that's when the economic journey starts. The markets, goods and services are sent to places which didn't get them before, so new revenue sources.
The poor and the needy can get to better Hospitals and get care, something they may not be able to get before. And this expands the Healthcare.
Children from distance areas may not be able to go to school without transportation, when government runs metros and stuff, the distance shrinks and more people can afford to travel to better school and universities, which would be considered too far before.
Infrastructure is WHAT grows the economy, generates more revenue, attracts foreign and internal investors. Before the current government came, hundreds of billions of textile and other businesses were moved to Malaysia and Bangladesh. You know why? Because they had business districts running with a footprint (infrastructure in place) to do textile and manufacturing. As an investor, you bring your machines, hook them up and go. You don't need to build roads, build buildings or warehouses. This is what the infrastructure does. No one's going to invest into Pakistan to build a product or service they know won't be easy to see, due to lacking the market penetration and depth because there are no ways to access more future customers.

Last, the government isn't buying from their cousins. Every project is being audited by Transparency International. If so was the case, it would've gone up to the World Bank, etc. You are accusing others without a proof and this is now gossip. If you do have such proofs, then take those to the Supreme Court. If you don't think you have enough, no need for the brain farts here.

 

[WishLivePak]

Problem is our priority and the way a thing is done. First we need to resolve energy crisis and start establishing industries so people can get jobs bring pace so investor can come and invest improve judical and Tax system and make it easy to do business on what ever scale. And when you are building a thing Government should be neutral not buy stuff from those companies which are owned by those who are in Government

We are solving our energy problem. We can't fix it in one day.

Nuclear, dams which produce cheap electricity, take years to build. Metro project can be done in span of year or two.

 

[Rahi812]

Hey i am little confused here,doesn't Metro mean Metro railway in Pakistan??I mean in India,Metro usually mean the Underground rail systems of Kolkata or Delhi.So i just don't understand why bus services are being referred as Metro in Pakistan!!

Nawaz Sharif is making one of biggest shot of his life and introduce special bus servie, having their own track with limited red lights and cross sections. He made billions from this project.