World's most expensive Metro !

[Abingdonboy]

Do you realize i was being sarcastic to Imranistan?

Fair enough my friend, I apologise for being rash with you.

 

[SHAMK9]

well i am just saying that half of the world ride buses and call them metro...
running after the origin of the word doesn't translates its use in the modern world...
if you dont know that there is no reason to argue with you

No they don't, it's known as metrobus or bus transit

 

[TankMan]

You raise good points, for which I have solution.

Come to school and you'll get free meals, among other things.

And like I said, there will still be some people who would want to come to study but can't because they've to work. But then I don't have bill gates bank password. I want every cent, that i have (and work hard for), to be given to those who want and deserve it the most.

Which brings economics 101 lesson. Opportunity cost. I have $100, how do i make the use of it so that my marginal benefit is the highest.

Such solutions will work well for an NGO, but the original discussion was geared towards what a government should do - the issues on a national level are much more complex and such simple solutions will not be enough for them.

Anyway, I wish you all the best for your plans and the NGO you intend to start.

Metro is supposed to be expensive. But in the long run it will be worth it for two reasons; that metro can generate good revenue - good for the economy of Pakistan and convenience for the public given the crowded cities.

A metro in Pakistan isn't supposed to be multiple times more expensive than one built in India or Turkey or any other country. In the long run it won't really be worth it because of how flawed the design is - a flyover cutting through central Lahore, with stops so far apart that people need to use rickshaws and other transportation anyway. It has actually made the city more crowded by taking up half the space that was once used as a normal road.

In the future, when Lahore develops further, it will be a lot easier to convert it into a sort of freeway or demolish this metro entirely and replace it with an underground system because such above-ground systems are simply not suited to cities like Lahore - most Western cities are replacing them with underground metros and already have an integrated railway system.
In short, this metro is too expensive and too improper to be of any actual use. However, if maintained and developed further properly, it may improve. But them, how much will that cost?

That's when poverty started in the first place

Poverty has existed since before nuclear power was even dreamt of.

Economic sanction can be placed on nations for one reason, Nuclear program.

Would you prefer it if Pakistan was absorbed by India? Or worse, nuked by India? Nukes were needed.

and yet no sign of blaming towards Pakistan army for overusing budgets towards their defense.

Their defense? Is the Pakistan Army not part of Pakistan? It wasn't ''their defense.'' It was the country's defense, which is required as we have multiple border disputes, an unstable Afghanistan on our West and a hostile India to our East, not to mention internal security threats. Despite all this, Pakistan actually has one of the lowest military budgets in the region and even then the PA is very efficient.
‘Pakistan’s defence spending lowest in region’ - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

I don't want to be involved in your debate, but this 'blame the army and nuclear program' horse has been beaten to death and debunked enough times - lay it to rest and move on, for God's sake.

Quoting this article,
''a careful analysis of SBP data shows that growth actually picked up in FY99 – the year starting July 1998 or just two months after the nuclear tests. Growth picked up in FY99 to 4.2 percent compared to 1.7 percent in FY97 and 3.5 percent in FY98.''

 

[Bilal9]

Because having such a high tech industry creates zero jobs? Such a silly statement- you grow yourself out of poverty, just wanting it enough won't cut it.

The way you grow yourself out of poverty is by providing enough (plentiful) well-paying jobs that largely match the education level and skill-sets of your people. Take it from someone with actual experience. If this means sewing up garments then fine. It's still an honest living.

That is the exact route for a third world country like Bangladesh to lift itself out of poverty (and I suspect a lot of our South Asian neighbors). The same way China, before that Taiwan/Korea and before that Japan lifted themselves out of poverty. In the 1900's Japan was a huge garments sewing juggernaut, in the years before the 1930's they went to making things like cameras and other instruments (higher value addition). Then in the 60's they started making automobiles. Value addition at low cost of labor for each field and level of increasing sophistication. Of course eventually everyone stops subsidizing Shoe and Garment Manufacture and then goes up to higher level value addition (such as 7 layer motherboards). But for China it took a couple of decades because China's economics were not ready.

In my travels in India and Bangladesh I don't see a whole lot of NASA-scientist PhD's. I see average Joes and Jills who would love to work at either of two levels of value addition and sustain their lifestyle with a comfortable salary.

a) Low level BPO functions and call center jobs for educated folks
b) Making Low level machinery and white goods for uneducated folks.

Those are what the world 'largely' expects of India or for the subcontinent in manner of speaking. Yeah there are aerospace and high-tech value addition too (HAL's and Pakistani JF-17 complex' Boeing components and Tata's NH-90 contract for the fuselage for example). But how many people does that employ?

Back in the day (eighties) Boeing used to go to IPTN in Indonesia to get lower prices for components like tail cones and door assemblies (high value-addition component expensive to make in Italy or Europe). Boeing still goes there - but I think they may increase the sourcing from Pakistan as well as India.

Chandrayan and Mangalayan are expensive 'showcase' projects meant to prove a point. But actual dollar benefit that helps the Aam Janta in their lives - I don't think so.

Sorry for the off-topic segway but I think you'll realize building infrastructure is not an either-or proposition when compared with giving your people honest justifiable jobs.

But here the cost for Metro Project does seem a little on the high side.

 

[Finer]

Such solutions will work well for an NGO, but the original discussion was geared towards what a government should do - the issues on a national level are much more complex and such simple solutions will not be enough for them.

Anyway, I wish you all the best for your plans and the NGO you intend to start.


A metro in Pakistan isn't supposed to be multiple times more expensive than one built in India or Turkey or any other country. In the long run it won't really be worth it because of how flawed the design is - a flyover cutting through central Lahore, with stops so far apart that people need to use rickshaws and other transportation anyway. It has actually made the city more crowded by taking up half the space that was once used as a normal road.

In the future, when Lahore develops further, it will be a lot easier to convert it into a sort of freeway or demolish this metro entirely and replace it with an underground system because such above-ground systems are simply not suited to cities like Lahore - most Western cities are replacing them with underground metros and already have an integrated railway system.
In short, this metro is too expensive and too improper to be of any actual use. However, if maintained and developed further properly, it may improve. But them, how much will that cost?

Fair enough. That being said, despite of being expensive projects which could have settled for affordable projects, but too late to argue on the estimation of the projects, and support the projects hoping to generate handsome revenue to help pay back with interests.

I sort of expected the metro bus to crowd up the crowded cities, but also made it convenience to public who cannot afford cars, taxi,..etc. There is positive, but there is also negative. You cannot have both unfortunately.

Poverty has existed since before nuclear power was even dreamt of.

Not by huge margin as the situation in 60's was in much better situation. Hence, Pakistan was titled "Tigers of the Asia". South Korea modeled Pakistan economical plan and succeeded itself.

Would you prefer it if Pakistan was absorbed by India? Or worse, nuked by India? Nukes were needed.

Their defense? Is the Pakistan Army not part of Pakistan? It wasn't ''their defense.'' It was the country's defense, which is required as we have multiple border disputes, an unstable Afghanistan on our West and a hostile India to our East, not to mention internal security threats. Despite all this, Pakistan actually has one of the lowest military budgets in the region and even then the PA is very efficient.
‘Pakistan’s defence spending lowest in region’ - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

I don't want to be involved in your debate, but this 'blame the army and nuclear program' horse has been beaten to death and debunked enough times - lay it to rest and move on, for God's sake.

Quoting this article,
''a careful analysis of SBP data shows that growth actually picked up in FY99 – the year starting July 1998 or just two months after the nuclear tests. Growth picked up in FY99 to 4.2 percent compared to 1.7 percent in FY97 and 3.5 percent in FY98.''

We can argue for the unseen future part, but at the end, that is debatable.

If it wasn't for Pakistan pursuant towards Nuclear program, economical sanction wouldn't be placed on Pakistan. I agree on the part that Pakistan may or may not be absorbed by India, but poverty in huge margins started the moment when economical sanction was placed on Pakistan. Blaming on PMLN is idiotic at best knowing the consequence of economical sanction that can barely help the nation to progress.

That's why Pakistan was already in huge debt led by economical sanction made it harder for Pakistan to progress, and to the extent, Pakistan is now have to borrow loans to keep the nation running.

The defense budget is the least concern for Pakistan, but yet, need billion dollars for maintenance of Nuclear sites, and future projects of anything related to defense related projects, and procuring foreign planes for Pakistan army in dealing with China, USA, Turkey, Russia requirring billion dollars and more.

That being said, due to misplaced priority that was forced on Pakistan due to heavily security concern, poverty is not going to be eliminated pretty soon unfortunately, and perhaps, keeping lower expectation is understandable as the more borrowed loans will be invested towards projects that can generate revenues to pay with interest back.

Like i said, why not first stabilize the economy of Pakistan and then change the priority towards the welfare of the state. Right now, Pakistan is already in debt, and only revenue projects that can solve the debt for now.

Are you sure poverty started from there?

Please dont overlook the other details that led to the swift turns! Like not building dams even when we had the funds...Funds disappearing mid way of project....Lack of electricity hence no industry to no investment....its a whole line of things that caused it not just 1 thing to take the fall!

Pakistanis have a habit like Zia for all failures...yup a man dead for 30 yrs to take EACH AND EVERY bloody failure which a line of 30yrs worth of politicians could not fix (no blame on them they were angels, right? )

Likewise every root cause for poverty is the nuclear weapons....


Yet noon group claims it was all thanks to NS we got nuclear arms! go figure...Another set of hogging on to praises and appeals!


Your blindness towards a whole 20 -30 yr of events is remarkable

I have a answer for the long absurd post.

Google "economic sanction" and why

Dude...it is not something to brush under the carpet for every 1 metro project we get other countries get 6 for the same price...I dont see that as development in any form or any positiveness...we will always be 6 projects behind of what WE COULD BE if there was planning and proper execution involved!

There is already billion dollars energy projects that inclueds solar energy project as well.

Since you are comparing to other nations. Why not post comparatively analysis of estimation cost between Pakistan and other nations on metro bus on the exact amount figure in calculated currency?

You do know that HEC stuff started in Musharaff era..sure I am not his big fan but I dont fail to acknowledge what he did for the education dept...literally the only one who bothered giving a second glance at educating our people!


25% of the people doesnt make for the silent 65% ..


So you mean to say we never recovered? Are you kidding me? We DID recover who dragged us back in? This type of ignorance towards other issues is what dragged us in the 1st place...brushing everything with the ignorance factor or under a rug is the BIGGEST factor of never being able to progress!!

You do realize Pakistan is under the debt now, and education is non-profit entity, hence lack of investment towards educational sector. First, Pakistan has to get rid of debt by funneling towards profit-entity to stabilize the economy of Pakistan, and then change the priority for welfare of the state including educational sector.

N. Korea isnt borrowing nor does it have an energy crisis even with sanctions! Do you think they dont have corruption there? A model to look at would be Japan ...Where people work and behave as human beings not kings of the world! Even CEO come in public transport not like in Pakistan everyone has their own mini army and they dare to point fingers?!

North Korea is placed by economical sanction that is creating huge hurdle on the economy of the nation while South Korea has no association with Nuclear program hence not placed by economical sanction and that's why it is thriving.

Pakistan paid heavy price the moment Pakistan started working on Nuclear program that led to economic sanction on Pakistan which started poverty in huge margins. Pakistan situation was much better in 60's. Google it.

Wrong nation to take example since Japan was given money handsome to build the nation from the scratch of the ground after the bombing incidents, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Japan had money to invest towards profit-entity and non-profit entity [welfare such as education, benefits].

My upbringing has nothing to do with pointing out facts....Backward is what it is ....suggest the mentality not that you are or behave as one!
And I gave the reason for calling you backward :

Seriously you see those who give lives to save you as your mortal enemy while swinging on a metro project 6x more expensive than the normal is fine as long as your lord told you so?

No offense. Only backward people call other people backward people as they have no mannerism speaking.
Do whatever you want, but your behavior will reflect poorly on your upbringing by your parents.

We can agree to disagree, but learn to debate politely.

Fair enough my friend, I apologise for being rash with you.

That's okay. Since Imranistan is praising India for the space development, but if it was done by PMLN, Imranistan would be taunting with the word, "poverty" on PMLN and Pakistan as if Pakistan should stop breathing because of poverty.
There is no hope on Imranistan.

Space will be best thing happen for India in the long run.

 

[Viper0011.]

In actual its nawaz sharif doing business, earning profits through kickbacks

I finally got it translated. Does this guy on tv even has a BASIC idea about capital investments and capital financing? Does this guy even has ANY idea how contracts work which include Firm Fixed Price with Economic Adjustments? Or Firm Price Contract with Price Redetermination???? You have morons on the TV, who, without proper knowledge, bash others, just to get paid for yellow journalism and spread their fake economic understanding.

When you have investors building your infrastructure, there is a 20-30% fixed profit added to the contractual value. Subsidies are usually annual payments covering the profit part, the rest comes from actual operations to the investor.

This is a great way to kick start your economy when you have no cash. Investors pour money in for a specific minimum profit, result in kicking off tremendous business and economic activity locally, resulting in thousands of long term jobs added, resulting in more revenue being generated inside a country, with increased tax base, which then results in increasing people's standard of living, providing more jobs, education, healthcare, better transportation, and overall, stimulating the entire economy.

If someone's 30% profit (say $ 100 million profit even), over HIGH RISK investment like Pakistan, resulted in $ 1 Billion worth of economic throughput increase, do I really give a rats as*s about the $ 100 million??? NO!!!

Because that $ 100 million didn't come out of Pakistan's savings account to begin with. Hell, if it was up to Pakistan, the metro wouldn't even exist as there was no money for it to begin with!!!

So appreciate the fact that your government is bringing in these investors who are starting these mega projects, likes of which can be seen in the US, Europe, Korea, India and China.

And you are upset because your country is building advance infrastructure WITHOUT having the money and paying extra in profit.....???? That's smart business......The Entire Globe Wants investments, here, you are bashing what's been brought in after so much hard work, and its directly benefiting your country. How shameful of you to be bitch*ing about progress !!!!

 

[East or West India Best]

Every thing is on sale in Pakistan..

Hello, can I get 1 order of Lahore?

 

[Bilal9]

Just to clear up some confusion here, Metro typically means Metro Rail. Public transit that uses Buses is Bus Rapid Transit. Both can be joined together as a system with interchanges. Dhaka will have 3 feeder BRT lines and 3 arterial Metro Rail lines.

Dhaka's metro is going to be 22 KM long and the budget is around USD 2.7 Billion. Don't know if this is more expensive than the one being discussed here. A video,

At one of the earlier posts, Someone mentioned $20 million per km for Pindi Islamabad Metro compared to India's $3 million per km. I think the Dhaka Metro will end up costing six to seven times that of Pindi Islamabad project. Chori on a massive scale.

 

[qamar1990]

Are they catering for the 65% who earn below average? Yea more than half of our population is dirt poor or earns below average....All these things are catering for the few 35% who is going to voice out for the other 65%?

that doesn't mean we should stop development till we have no poverty.... these projects are going to help those 65%... the government can't and should not just give shit away to people.... they can only help make the opportunities....
metro bus isnt for the 35% who got cars... its for the people who had 2 pay 25-35 percent of their salary to rickshahs and busses to go around town... now they will spend 20 ruppees and go anywhere they want so they can spend more of their money on their families.... it will also reduce traffic and increase the quality of life.

 

[qamar1990]

Just to clear up some confusion here, Metro typically means Metro Rail. Public transit that uses Buses is Bus Rapid Transit. Both can be joined together as a system with interchanges. Dhaka will have 3 feeder BRT lines and 3 arterial Metro Rail lines.

Dhaka's metro is going to be 22 KM long and the budget is around USD 2.7 Billion. Don't know if this is more expensive than the one being discussed here. A video,

At one of the earlier posts, Someone mentioned $20 million per km for Pindi Islamabad Metro compared to India's $3 million per km. I think the Dhaka Metro will end up costing six to seven times that of Pindi Islamabad project. Chori on a massive scale.

it is i think

 

[Soumitra]

india dunya nhi hai mery bhai . many countries have matro bus service .as canada USA UK PAKISTAN TURKEY many more
Metrobus - Miami-Dade County
Metrobus | Metrobus
Metro - Bus
Home
Metrobus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What's the difference between a normal intracity bus service and a Metro Bus?

Actually what MikeBrando and @Daneshmand referred to was
Rapid transit, also known as metro, subway or underground, is a type of high-capacity public transport generally found in urban areas.[1][2][3]Unlike buses, trams or light rail, rapid transit systems are electric railways that operate on an exclusive right-of-way, which cannot be accessed by pedestrians or other vehicles of any sort,[4] and which is often grade separated in tunnels or on elevated railways.

 

[Bilal9]

What's the difference between a normal intracity bus service and a Metro Bus?

Actually what MikeBrando and @Daneshmand referred to was
Rapid transit, also known as metro, subway or underground, is a type of high-capacity public transport generally found in urban areas.[1][2][3]Unlike buses, trams or light rail, rapid transit systems are electric railways that operate on an exclusive right-of-way, which cannot be accessed by pedestrians or other vehicles of any sort,[4] and which is often grade separated in tunnels or on elevated railways.

Normal Intracity bus service does not have a dedicated pathway, Metro Bus and Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) usually does. Also BRT typically has single or bi-articulated (four axle) buses with accordion type flexible links to carry more passengers. One BRT bus can carry over hundred seated passengers. See image below.

Volvo 7300 Bi-articulated BRT bus in Colombia

 

[Soumitra]

Normal Intracity bus service does not have a dedicated pathway, Metro Bus and Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) usually does. Also BRT typically has single or bi-articulated buses with accordion type flexible links to carry more passengers. One BRT bus can carry over hundred seated passengers. See image below.

Volvo 7300 Bi-articulated BRT bus in Colombia

OK Thanks.

In Delhi also we had a BRT system but it was not succesful. I think it has been scrapped now. Any Delhities can confirm?

 

[Bilal9]

There are loads of Delhi studies and images at the ITDP site. It is the mother-lode of BRT information on networks in China, South America as well as India.

Delhi BRT & cycle tracks - Go Public - Go ITDP

On why the Delhi BRT failed I think it may have been timing. BRT's should feed 'into' the Metro lines and not compete with them. When the Delhi Metro eventually went full bore - it obviated the need for BRT. Plus the one lane each way took up too much traffic and caused jams. Execution was less than optimal.

 

[WishLivePak]

Such solutions will work well for an NGO, but the original discussion was geared towards what a government should do - the issues on a national level are much more complex and such simple solutions will not be enough for them.

Anyway, I wish you all the best for your plans and the NGO you intend to start.


A metro in Pakistan isn't supposed to be multiple times more expensive than one built in India or Turkey or any other country. In the long run it won't really be worth it because of how flawed the design is - a flyover cutting through central Lahore, with stops so far apart that people need to use rickshaws and other transportation anyway. It has actually made the city more crowded by taking up half the space that was once used as a normal road.

In the future, when Lahore develops further, it will be a lot easier to convert it into a sort of freeway or demolish this metro entirely and replace it with an underground system because such above-ground systems are simply not suited to cities like Lahore - most Western cities are replacing them with underground metros and already have an integrated railway system.
In short, this metro is too expensive and too improper to be of any actual use. However, if maintained and developed further properly, it may improve. But them, how much will that cost?


Poverty has existed since before nuclear power was even dreamt of.

Would you prefer it if Pakistan was absorbed by India? Or worse, nuked by India? Nukes were needed.

Their defense? Is the Pakistan Army not part of Pakistan? It wasn't ''their defense.'' It was the country's defense, which is required as we have multiple border disputes, an unstable Afghanistan on our West and a hostile India to our East, not to mention internal security threats. Despite all this, Pakistan actually has one of the lowest military budgets in the region and even then the PA is very efficient.
‘Pakistan’s defence spending lowest in region’ - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

I don't want to be involved in your debate, but this 'blame the army and nuclear program' horse has been beaten to death and debunked enough times - lay it to rest and move on, for God's sake.

Quoting this article,
''a careful analysis of SBP data shows that growth actually picked up in FY99 – the year starting July 1998 or just two months after the nuclear tests. Growth picked up in FY99 to 4.2 percent compared to 1.7 percent in FY97 and 3.5 percent in FY98.''

I was using it as an example to illustrate what I mean. Of course it gets complex, because world isn't black and white (and Economics is only field where noble prizes are given to two different people who disagree with each other).

Thanks for your well wishes.