Work on INDIA's BULLET TRAIN is underway in Full Swing

[Götterdämmerung]

I feel sorry about your desperate propaganda.

Running out of argument?

I think your saner compatriots are feeling fremdschämen for you.

 

[schoolboy]

The mood on this thread seems to be : If money is free / low interest and product is cool then go for it!

I mean who cares about feasibility, utility, opportunity cost and relevance, right? Such outdated concepts.

 

[PlugnPlay]

The mood on this thread seems to be : If money is free / low interest and product is cool then go for it!

I mean who cares about feasibility, utility, opportunity cost and relevance, right? Such outdated concepts.

The Railways started the project based on the feasibility Report.

Or did you think this multi billion $ project was started by idiots on PDF who seems to know more than Railway professionals ?

Your Rant on a pakistani forum do not constitute feasibility, utility, opportunity cost or relevance.

 

[schoolboy]

The Railways started the projected based on the feasibility Report.

Feasibility must be more than just technical feasibility.

None of the parameters of the project that have been reported in the newspapers appear economically feasible. I have already articulated my thoughts on why this project makes little sense.

As of today the report is not public - I wonder why? It's my money that will be used to repay the loans, pay the salaries, procure the equipment pay salaries.

All we have is a cryptic press release that says nothing http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=132557

If there is some special aspect of this project that defies common sense and experience I would like to know about it. Surely the government can make the report public?

 

[PlugnPlay]

Feasibility must be more than just technical feasibility.

None of the parameters of the project that have been reported in the newspapers appear economically feasible. I have already articulated my thoughts on why this project makes little sense.

As of today the report is not public - I wonder why? It's my money that will be used to repay the loans, pay the salaries, procure the equipment pay salaries.

All we have is a cryptic press release that says nothing http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=132557

If there is some special aspect of this project that defies common sense and experience I would like to know about it. Surely the government can make the report public?

India has something called "Right To Information" law also known as RTI.

Feel free to demand a copy of the report from the CIC Railways.

If the report is deemed suitable for public consumption it will be made public. If not, then you can move to the court for the information and the court will decide if the report can be made public.

We also have something called CAG which is a constitutional audit body that will audit the report and make its observations public.

Or do you think that japan who is funding 81% of the project will allocate Billions of $ worth funds for the project, will do so without a financial feasibility report ?

There is a limit to stupidity.

 

[Bombaywalla]

Bandra Kurla Complex (Bombay's suburban commercial hub) to Thane in 10 minutes!

Mumbai-Ahmedabad bullet train to have ‘fast and slow’ services with different number of stops.

Much like Mumbai’s famous fast and slow locals, the proposed bullet train to Ahmedabad will have a slightly slower service that will make multiple halts. Still, it will whisk passengers from Bandra Kurla Complex to Thane in just 10 minutes and to Virar in 24 minutes.

The estimated travel time, the number and location of the stops, and other crucial aspects of the high-speed rail ride between Mumbai and Ahmedabad have been listed in the project’s operations plan.

According to the document, the Railway Board wants two bullet train services on the 508-km corridor: a ‘Rapid Train’ from BKC with only three stops (Surat, Vadodara, Ahmedabad) and another with 10 halts (Thane, Virar, Boisar, Vapi, Bilimora, Surat, Bharuch, Vadodara, Anand, Ahmedabad). Both the services will culminate in Sabarmati near Ahmedabad.

The ‘Rapid Train’ will take 2 hours and seven minutes to reach Sabarmati, while the slower service will complete the journey in 2 hours and 58 minutes.

The bullet train is Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s pet project and route surveys, including soil testing on the undersea section, have already begun. The railway planners have set the ambitious targets of starting the construction next year and completing the work by 2023.

The project is estimated to cost over Rs 97,630 crore, 81 per cent of which will be covered by a loan from Japan, which is helping India to start bullet trains. Most part of the 508-kmlong corridor will be elevated tracks. The network will also have a 7-km undersea section, the first in the country, between Thane and Virar.

“The Railway Board plans to introduce 35 daily bullet train services in each direction. These include three services every hour in each direction during peak hours and two services during off-peak ones,” an official on the Board said. “We expect around 36,000 daily users once the services start in 2023. The number should go up to 1.86 lakh by 2053.”

The bullet trains will have business and standard sections with 2x2 and 2x3 seating configuration, respectively. The planners are also exploring the option of adding a convenience class with 3x3 seating.

The geo-technical surveys on the route began in January and they include aerial inspections conducted from a helicopter fitted with a highresolution camera and other sophisticated devices. Officials have also been drilling near Thane to determine the soil and rock conditions for the 7-km undersea stretch of the high-speed rail corridor.

Twenty-one km of the corridor will be underground. The section will run under the Trans-Harbour Thane-Vashi line and emerge before Dativali, where the bullet train terminal for Thane has been planned.

“We will try our best to meet the target of 2023,” said Anil Kumar Saxena, additional director general (public relations), Railway Board.

Source: http://mumbaimirror.indiatimes.com/...thane-in-10-minutes/articleshow/57302488.cms?

 

[schoolboy]

Feel free to demand a copy of the report from the CIC Railways.

When you give money to your servant to do a job, is the burden on you to ask the servant for an explanation of the expenditure or is the servant obliged to provide that information by default?

That's the fundamental difference between how you see government and how I see government. You seem like the kind of chap who believes that governments are under no obligation to explain their actions, that people have to request information, that the public cannot be trusted with info, etc. The same bunch who get a kick out of red-beacon cars and impressive-looking government buildings and designations and other sarkari nonsense. And that's cool - I guess sub. works for some.

For me, the government is simply a professional body mandated with undertaking development. As this is part funded by my hard-earned money - and is ostensibly for my benefit - I expect that the basis of making decisions that involve that money should be default be known - unless, in exceptional cases it is a matter of national security, etc. Now the economic rationale for implementing a rail project that involves potentially lakhs of crores over its life does not appear to me to be a national security issue so there is no good reason why the report is not public.

If the report is deemed suitable for public consumption it will be made public. If not, then you can move to the court for the information and the court will decide if the report can be made public.

OK Einstein, why is this report not public? That's my point. All kinds of feasibility reports are routinely published - such as for highway construction, township planning, airport privatisation, reform of personal law, reform of bureaucracy, bank licenses - so why is this so secret? I suspect the report relies on erroneous assumptions - or perhaps is not an economic feasibility report at all - and would be a source of embarrassment and criticism if made public.

Or do you think that japan who is funding 81% of the project will allocate Billions of $ worth funds for the project, will do so without a financial feasibility report ?

Japan is taking Indian sovereign risk in funding this project so it's understandable if the economic success or failure does not worry them. They may be worried more about diversion of funds - and typically end-use monitoring would be present - but it's not like we can withold payment on grounds that the project is not making money. In any event it's disingenuous to rely of a lender's judgment to justify the utility of a project to the borrower. And like several others you conveniently sidestep the issue of the utility of the project by invoking source of funds.

I notice you have no answer to any of the commonsensical observations I have posted here re the utility or feasibility of what is obviously a vanity project. I do not hold it against you - any more than I hold it against a LDC in some government department for questioning why the government is working the way it is. You are also entitled to be cavalier with your money - but it's foolish to expect others to have such an attitude.

Or did you think this multi billion $ project was started by idiots on PDF who seems to know more than Railway professionals ?

Maybe not - but it's clear this project was started by people who are either uninformed or have made poor assumptions to justify sinking so much money - that much seems obvious.

Your Rant on a pakistani forum do not constitute feasibility, utility, opportunity cost or relevance.

What a silly statement. Would my rant on an Indian forum instead suddenly change the legitimacy of my demands? I am asking anyone who has extended his blind support to this project to attempt to explain how it will be beneficial to the people of India - at who's cost it will is being constructed. Clearly the government has failed in making out a case for this project except to appeal to superficial and feel-good instincts so I would be happy to know how it makes sense.

 

[PlugnPlay]

When you give money to your servant to do a job, is the burden on you to ask the servant for an explanation of the expenditure or is the servant obliged to provide that information by default?

That's the fundamental difference between how you see government and how I see government. You seem like the kind of chap who believes that governments are under no obligation to explain their actions, that people have to request information, that the public cannot be trusted with info, etc. The same bunch who get a kick out of red-beacon cars and impressive-looking government buildings and designations and other sarkari nonsense. And that's cool - I guess sub. works for some.

For me, the government is simply a professional body mandated with undertaking development. As this is part funded by my hard-earned money - and is ostensibly for my benefit - I expect that the basis of making decisions that involve that money should be default be known - unless, in exceptional cases it is a matter of national security, etc. Now the economic rationale for implementing a rail project that involves potentially lakhs of crores over its life does not appear to me to be a national security issue so there is no good reason why the report is not public.

You are free to think of the govt. as your "servant", slave or your mistress. No one gives a $hit.

Do not presume to know about me to cover up your stupidity.

Like I said you are free to seek the information using RTI or the courts if you are really serious about knowing it. If the courts agree with your assessment, they will provide you with it.

OK Einstein, why is this report not public? That's my point. All kinds of feasibility reports are routinely published - such as for highway construction, township planning, airport privatisation, reform of personal law, reform of bureaucracy, bank licenses - so why is this so secret? I suspect the report relies on erroneous assumptions - or perhaps is not an economic feasibility report at all - and would be a source of embarrassment and criticism if made public.

LOL. Unlike you, I do not claim to know why the report is not public.

One reason is to ensure land prices along the designate route do not go up exponentially. Another would be to prevent land grabbing or allegations of corruption etc.

A Simple RTI will solve all your heart ache. Only you don't seem to be interested in seeking it. You would rather throw mud and smirk and take names.

Japan is taking Indian sovereign risk in funding this project so it's understandable if the economic success or failure does not worry them. They may be worried more about diversion of funds - and typically end-use monitoring would be present - but it's not like we can withold payment on grounds that the project is not making money. In any event it's disingenuous to rely of a lender's judgment to justify the utility of a project to the borrower. And like several others you conveniently sidestep the issue of the utility of the project by invoking source of funds.

I notice you have no answer to any of the commonsensical observations I have posted here re the utility or feasibility of what is obviously a vanity project. I do not hold it against you - any more than I hold it against a LDC in some government department for questioning why the government is working the way it is. You are also entitled to be cavalier with your money - but it's foolish to expect others to have such an attitude.

Utter Rubbish.

There is not sovereign guarantee provided for the bullet train project.

Only a fool thinks professionals do not worry about economic success or failures of Billion $ projects while sanctioning them. I do not think I need to provide any answer to such foolish assumptions disguised as "common sense". If anything it defies common sense.

You are free to whine and crib all you want. Just don't be surprised when people call you out on it.

Maybe not - but it's clear this project was started by people who are either uninformed or have made poor assumptions to justify sinking so much money - that much seems obvious.

... ok. As clear as mud.

What a silly statement. Would my rant on an Indian forum instead suddenly change the legitimacy of my demands? I am asking anyone who has extended his blind support to this project to attempt to explain how it will be beneficial to the people of India - at who's cost it will is being constructed. Clearly the government has failed in making out a case for this project except to appeal to superficial and feel-good instincts so I would be happy to know how it makes sense.

Your demands if any should have been directed towards and RTI query which would have cost only you a few bucks.

This is a rant expressing frustration, based on assumptions, ignorance and arrogance.

The govt. so far has successfully made its case to the Railways, to funding bodies in Japan and to the opposition.

The funding and cost of funding and benefits have been clearly spelled out for all those who are really interested. For the rest there is pdf.

 

[schoolboy]

You are free to think of the govt. as your "servant", slave or your mistress. No one gives a $hit.

I'm sorry you lack the ability or confidence to ask why your government acts the way it does. Or perhaps you believe democratically elected leaders are above criticism and incapable of wrong.

As to your reasoning, logic and insults - I now understand why you've managed to earn so many negative ratings in so short a span of time. Keep it up.

My mistake to engage you in what I thought was a serious discussion.

 

[PlugnPlay]

I'm sorry you lack the ability or confidence to ask why your government acts the way it does. Or perhaps you believe democratically elected leaders are above criticism and incapable of wrong.

As to your reasoning, logic and insults - I now understand why you've managed to earn so many negative ratings in so short a span of time. Keep it up.

My mistake to engage you in what I thought was a serious discussion.

Like I said don't pretend to know me. Only Losers do that.

If you want a serious discussion, provide FACTS , not cheap opinions disguised as facts.

 

[kadamba-warrior]

I thought this debate was settled couple of years ago when they signed it with JICA.

Not getting to feasibility studies, since someone already answered it - Japan is offering very attractive loans - specifically for HSR. Essentially, it is either for HSR or nothing at all. Since HSR is not eating away IR's budget (not significantly, anyway), IR is free to add whatever that they want to do with the Rail infrastructure.

India, with its humongous population will always need multiple modes of transportation - rail, air, HSR, DFC, roads, E-ways. We need all of them and we need all of them in good numbers. Given our scarcity of land, coupled with foolishly stringent Land Acquisition laws, we will only find it increasingly difficult to acquire huge amount of land for any such large projects in future. It is a case of now or never.

It is ridiculous to suggest that flights can somehow compensate for Railways/HSR and is only talking short term solutions. And comparison to US/Canada/Australia is rather silly owing to their geography and population density. Anyway, future doesn't belong to petroleum based mass transport system - certainly not for India which imports almost all of its petroleum needs.

I can criticize Modi for some of his other projects (GIFT being one of them), but Mumbai-Ahmedabad is essentially a pilot project and part of a larger and much busier Mumbai-Delhi corridor. Any suggestion of partiality is essentially silly. Besides, I think this corridor was long being considered even before Modi became PM.

 

[schoolboy]

It is ridiculous to suggest that flights can somehow compensate for Railways/HSR and is only talking short term solutions.

But why is it ridiculous ?

Here are some more very simple-to-understand facts.

The rail distance from Mumbai to Ahmedabad is 493 km. As per the official government press release existing LHB coaches (of the variety seen in Shatabdi / Rajdhani trains) are designed for 160kmph speeds, [apparently the newest ones can do 200 kmph]. http://www.pib.nic.in/newsite/erelcontent.aspx?relid=122518

So we already have technology that can cover the distance in 493 / 160 = 3 hours approx. Yet the fastest train at present takes over double that - at 6 hrs 20 minutes.

In other words speed is not a limiting factor for quicker transit time. Signalling, track density, road crossings, unscheduled stops - are the likely reasons. I would prefer money be spent on improving these items and construction of another non-high speed line [at less than 10% of the cost of HRR track].

Air travel is currently cheaper, faster and safer than any HSR - and nothing suggests that a traveller would pay 20-40% more than airfare to get from Mumbai to Ahmedabad in double [or triple] the time using HSR. Would you pay Rs 2500+ to travel by bullet train on that route in 2.3 hours when you could do that in 30 minutes by paying for a Rs 1800+ air ticket. I know I wouldn't - except maybe once for the experience and novelty.

And comparison to US/Canada/Australia is rather silly owing to their geography and population density.

Not really. I live on the east coast where population densities are quite high (office areas in downtown manhattan and NJ are as bad as Mumbai on weekdays) and the number of commuters on the Metro-North / LIRR rival intercity stretches such as Mumbai-Ahmedabad. Despite being a far more prosperous nation there has never been even a non-serious attempt to construct bullet trains for these stretches - instead good signalling and efficient use of existing technology ensure a quick commute time (New Haven to NYC (120 km) at approx 90 kmph) - or (Boston to NYC (350km) at approx 87 kmph) at reasonable prices, less than 50% of the cheapest air ticket. These stop at many stations along the way as well.

Anyway, future doesn't belong to petroleum based mass transport system - certainly not for India which imports almost all of its petroleum needs.

Where do you think the electricity generated for electrified rail comes from ? Last year less than 5% of India's energy needs were from renewable sources (including nuclear).

 

[danger007]

Feasibility must be more than just technical feasibility.

None of the parameters of the project that have been reported in the newspapers appear economically feasible. I have already articulated my thoughts on why this project makes little sense.

As of today the report is not public - I wonder why? It's my money that will be used to repay the loans, pay the salaries, procure the equipment pay salaries.

All we have is a cryptic press release that says nothing http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=132557

If there is some special aspect of this project that defies common sense and experience I would like to know about it. Surely the government can make the report public?

Economically metro in Vijayawada not feasible, though CBN pushed for it... And the central govt agreed..

May be Mumbai- Ahmedabad is feasible, though Mumbai-Delhi ( economical capital-State capital) hold 10times larger travellers... Centre might pushed M-A.. no one going to admit it publicly..

 

[schoolboy]

May be Mumbai- Ahmedabad is feasible, though Mumbai-Delhi ( economical capital-State capital) hold 10times larger travellers... Centre might pushed M-A.. no one going to admit it publicly..

Purely a vanity project IMO. The opposite of the Delhi metro which was undertaken after well publicised and careful study, comparisons of traffic patterns, user behaviour and equipment cost. The result was an operating profit from the start. In comparison we know nothing about how the economics of this project are expected to work or why the net benefit from this would be more than improving rail infrastructure generally.

The sense I get is that the sole justification for this HSR project is that the funding is from Japan.

 

[kadamba-warrior]

But why is it ridiculous ?

Here are some more very simple-to-understand facts.

The rail distance from Mumbai to Ahmedabad is 493 km. As per the official government press release existing LHB coaches (of the variety seen in Shatabdi / Rajdhani trains) are designed for 160kmph speeds, [apparently the newest ones can do 200 kmph]. http://www.pib.nic.in/newsite/erelcontent.aspx?relid=122518

So we already have technology that can cover the distance in 493 / 160 = 3 hours approx. Yet the fastest train at present takes over double that - at 6 hrs 20 minutes.

In other words, the existing tracks have all but reached their saturation points! How do you think these lines are going to serve for the next 50-60 years?

Think of HSR as a brand new line for future-proofing - albeit at a higher cost.

In other words speed is not a limiting factor for quicker transit time. Signalling, track density, road crossings, unscheduled stops - are the likely reasons. I would prefer money be spent on improving these items and construction of another non-high speed line [at less than 10% of the cost of HRR track].

You don't get it, do you? It is not India's money to invest wherever it pleases. It is Japan wanting to specifically investing in HSR to promote their Shinkansen.

Besides, who is even arguing against improving the existing rail/signal infrastructure? Like I said, WE NEED IT ALL! The price we need to pay for our mindless population explosion!

Air travel is currently cheaper, faster and safer than any HSR - and nothing suggests that a traveller would pay 20-40% more than airfare to get from Mumbai to Ahmedabad in double [or triple] the time using HSR. Would you pay Rs 2500+ to travel by bullet train on that route in 2.3 hours when you could do that in 30 minutes by paying for a Rs 1800+ air ticket. I know I wouldn't - except maybe once for the experience and novelty.

Hey, talk to the guys who prepared the feasibility report - including JICA. They are the ones who determined its viability.

Besides, you are not comparing the scales. Sure, air travel is safer, faster but compare the numbers HSR manages to transport in CHINA and then arrive at how many flights you would need to transport as many people. And why would it be different in India's case? After all, we have almost equal population numbers.

Air travel is cheaper now with oil prices at such lows, but add the inevitable fuel price surge in the future and you have perfect disaster in the making if you rely solely on Airlines for mass transport.

Not really. I live on the east coast where population densities are quite high (office areas in downtown manhattan and NJ are as bad as Mumbai on weekdays) and the number of commuters on the Metro-North / LIRR rival intercity stretches such as Mumbai-Ahmedabad. Despite being a far more prosperous nation there has never been even a non-serious attempt to construct bullet trains for these stretches - instead good signalling and efficient use of existing technology ensure a quick commute time (New Haven to NYC (120 km) at approx 90 kmph) - or (Boston to NYC (350km) at approx 87 kmph) at reasonable prices, less than 50% of the cheapest air ticket. These stop at many stations along the way as well.

For every example that you quote from US, there is a counter example of China/Japan/SK/Europe building HSR. Don't they also have airliners? Why did they even build HSR's if airlines are enough?

Besides, lack of HSR's in the US has less to do with economic prosperity but more with their political system, people's attitudes and land acquisition problems. But then even US is rushing to build it's first HSR on the west coast. Look it up!

Where do you think the electricity generated for electrified rail comes from ? Last year less than 5% of India's energy needs were from renewable sources (including nuclear).

And your point being? Generally, I don't indulge in shouting matches in an online forum but who is even talking about renewable energy sources here?

Majority of power generated in India is from Coal and Hydropower and a smaller portion of it with gas-based plants with renewable power gaining wider acceptability gradually. In other words, we don't depend significantly on imported Petroleum (or imported Coal for that matter) for "Power generation". When you expect the airlines to make up for the additional passengers that would, given a choice, go to HSR, you are only going to increase the already burgeoning Fuel Bill of India.

Nothing to do with renewable energy - although it would be nice to have it based on renewable source and one can also argue that it is much easier to control pollution in a captive power station than it is with individual vehicles/planes.

And you will run out of petroleum far quicker than you will run out of COAL!