Words that BYTE

[The Sandman]

Just my 2 cents on it. @The Sandman @VCheng

Until and unless some privileged members are stripped from the immunity to troll/abuse/mock whoever they can and in how disgusting language they can things won't improve. Also either make mod someone who can spend time here and is unbiased or make some kind of auto bot that automatically removes the post that contains offensive words e.g Reddit's automod.

Above all what we need is patience, respect for other's opinions and tolerance this is not a place i came to troll i would go to FB or Youtube there are all kinds of nationality wars going on there this place was supposed to be a place to learn to express their opinions without getting their religion mocked, get death threats, personal attacks which goes as far as to dragging families in it. Modding here needs a complete overhaul imo it's still same as i last saw it year ago.

 

[Mentee]

@Mentee @Signalian @PakSword @Dawood Ibrahim @Hell hound @The Sandman @RealNapster @Starlord

This issue could have been resolved at its earliest by banning all the involved parties as they violated the forum's rules don't know what was the need to drag it this long------.

 

[Itachi]

who at least in my opinion was very valuable and knowledge

You thought wrong. Read the below.

Classic case of "baghal main churi/chako aur moon main ram ram".

How he became TT is beyond me. That dude always brought in the War of 1971 whenever he was losing a debate. And I have been seeing his threads since 2010.

More of his "knowledge"...

The guy was on a trolling roll. He started abusing Islam when he saw that he had lost & anger took him over. Banning him was long overdue. We already have Indian members that can contribute without going ape shit. Good riddance.


On the other hand, I say that we increase the number of mods on PDF, introduce an Indian mod (my vote goes to @Joe Shearer ) that looks to diffuse situations like the above as they're happening or have happened and dishes out bans or negative ratings to anyone posting material abusing Hinduism or India a bit too much/regularly. We also need tighter control of the trolls on this forum, of every nationality, particularly Pakistani & Indian because they form the majority.

When this is solved, we'll higher grades of discussions never before seen in the history of PDF.

 

[Joe Shearer]

An admirable post. My responses - not comments, that sounds too judgemental - interleaved below:

This should remain an international forum as it has been. Yes differences in opinions and point of views will continue to exist based on where one grows up but the knowledge and ideas exchanged are far too valuable to let differences get in the way. Lately there has been an increasing number of trolls from various countries/regions bringing down the overall quality of the forum and increasing hostility. However all members have been somewhat putting up with that since there isn't yet an effective way to deal with this phenomenon. The trolls just come back with a different account and it becomes a whack a mole game for mods.

I think Oscar wanted to dissipate a lot of cloudy thinking going around, and coalesce opinion around two poles - do we want Indians on the board or not? Not international participation, as you have argued; specifically Indian. It is only India with whom Pakistan, and Pakistani members of this forum, have serious problems; it is only for an Indian, therefore, that a Pakistani temper starts getting white-hot; only in discussions with Indians, where Pakistanis are all Muslim, and Indians are for the overwhelming part not Muslim, do tempers flare up, and mutual disdain for each others' faith system crops up and takes an increasingly strident tone.

While we think these issues through

From the Indian point of view, there are actually two groups; one group b.

The above isn't the issue that arose with the recent events. The issue is being FAIR across the board. Let me explain in the few key points below
1) The member who committed the offense holds the title of "Think Tank"
--> Yes he may have become infuriated with trolls who were instigating but he took things far beyond an acceptable level with what he said...unbecoming of his title of TT. That is no way to handle it. If the trolls are being offensive u report them...even if they cross the line and insult ur religion, u do not insult their religion back and get away with it bcuz they did it first. It's simple insulting someone's religion(bcuz it's a sensitive issue) should mean a ban...no ifs or buts.

2) Even more bothersome is the fact that other members have been handed out bans or punished in other ways for far less.
--> This makes ppl even more uneasy bcuz it seems like favoritism. Punishment/bans should be handed out across the board for any violations.

IMO the forum shouldn't be made as per the wishes of Pakistanis...it should remain unbiased and equal for all internationally. Religious insults shouldn't be allowed for ANY religion bcuz other ppl give importance to their religion as much as we Pakistani Muslims do. In case a violation does happen like the one that happened...the member should be banned for a certain duration, his/her hurtful comments must be deleted, and he/she must issue an apology. Mods should use a strike system...three(or some other agreeable number) strikes and u r out(banned permanently).

Also as for a suggestion to curb trolls and improve the quality of the forum...I had this idea linked below
Prestige Points
It sort of makes the forum "democratic" giving the members of this forum to sort of "vote" on each post based on its quality. With this members can accumulate or lose prestige points.

@Nilgiri @Joe Shearer[/QUOTE]

You thought wrong. Read the below.

View attachment 531238

Classic case of "baghal main churi/chako aur moon main ram ram".

How he became TT is beyond me. That dude always brought in the War of 1971 whenever he was losing a debate. And I have been seeing his threads since 2010.

More of his "knowledge"...

View attachment 531239

The guy was on a trolling roll. He starting abusing Islam when he saw that he had lost & anger took him over. Banning him was long overdue. We already have Indian members that can contribute without going ape shit. Good riddance.


On the other hand, I say that we increase the number of mods on PDF, introduce an Indian mod (my vote goes to @Joe Shearer ) that looks to diffuse situations like the above as they're happening or have happened and dishes out bans or negative ratings to anyone posting material abusing Hinduism or India a bit too much/regularly. We also need tighter control of the trolls on this forum, of every nationality, particularly Pakistani & Indian because they form the majority.

When this is solved, we'll higher grades of discussions never before seen in the history of PDF.

Your two citations are immeasurably depressing. I have to leave the forum and bring myself to some better state. I had never thought that he was capable of vulgarity.

কি করলি রে তুই, আমাদের সবার নাক কাইটা ফেলাইলি।

 

[Itachi]

I have to leave the forum and bring myself to some better state.

No need to leave but if you must, you have the choice to. This is just another day on PDF.

Like @Cookie Monster said, I see PDF as a international forum where all types of nationalities can gather regardless of rivalries in the real world. Banning Indians or introducing selective membership would do us no good.

A couple of rotten apples on all sides must be booted, that's all.

কি করলি রে তুই, আমাদের সবার নাক কাইটা ফেলাইলি।

I don't know what that is...

Had to put it through Google translate. This is what came out: "What did you do, all our noses Kita Felili" or "What did you do, all of us nose kita".

What's the actual meaning?

 

[saiyan0321]

The puzzles of Oscar.

Im keeping the mods out of this to let this be an honest roll call of whether it is worth to engage what is essentially an enemy state(for both sides) on a platform essentially focusing on the capability to kill the other.

Yes it is for we do not discuss ways to kill each other but enhance our knowledge by discussing proper ways to defend ourselves and by us I mean everyone irrespective of nationalities.. We talk about weapon capability and its detriments. We talk on strategical detriments of national policies as well covert policies.. So yes it is bcz this platform once proved and I am sure it will once again that you can engage your enemy in a discussion were you can exchange ideas and concepts and still say good bye with a tip of the hat...

Secondly this is not just a defence forum now but a forum that discusses all aspects of the Pakistani nations and holds enclaves of other countries where they discuss their social and political and military aspects... This forum provides that platform.... We are not just here discussing ways to kill each other but providing analysis on the happenings of each country.

@Oscar has put up a very thoughtful proposition, that we should clearly think through the advantages and disadvantages, even the feasibility of a forum where defence is discussed between members of two nations that are not at peace with each other.

I believe that the logic of the argument hides a paradox; the difficulties arise not on defence related topics and threads but on social and political threads. Without commenting on the extreme opinions on the Pakistani side, it is a very clear thing that extremists among the Indians habitually concentrate on social and political threads; they are never there on the defence threads, not even by accident. Most of the disagreements and quarrels break out on those threads, too, and rarely, if ever, is there rancour or bitterness on defence threads.

If we are to respond to this initiative, I think it should be to segregate the two streams, even to split this forum into two, and to remove Indians from dual membership. We need be accepted into either the defence stream or into the social and political stream; there can be exceptions. The point is that some of us have always had an interest in the defence threads, and have also enjoyed the conversations there, and conversely have been dragged into social and political threads, and found full-scale communal riots going on over there.

If this is not a practical suggestion, then allow Indians into one or the other stream, not into both. To be honest, that would be a crippled choice, crippled by a clumsy compromise, one that satisfies neither the objective of seeking a broader-based discussion than the one confined to a single nationality nor the objective of seeking a more polite discussion with very strict rules regarding references to religion to each other's national characteristics, actual or mythical, or to anybody's personal integrity.

Along with whatever is decided, there is the question of evenhandedness. But that is a question for another post. Suffice it to say that we need to take one giant step and, if Indians are allowed at all, they should be allowed with the same responsibilities and privileges accorded to members of all other nationalities. They should be eligible for holding Moderator positions and policing their own members, disciplining them when needed, defending them when needed.

In a specific response to Oscar's note, selective membership and self-regulation may work better than completely segregating the two nationalities.

No.. No such segregation.. Do you think the problem will solve itself when all are Pakistanis.. It will not. We will only divide and bite each other and we have countless examples of that already. The problem is the quality and quantity of posters and their inability to engage in a reasonable discussion and their inability to walk away from ego..

How will segregation solve this.. I think the senior cafe idea was wonderful but was affected by the simple fact that High level of posting would get you in rather than the initial concept of recommendation of a membership holder...


We discuss our political and social aspects and come to understand ourselves even more.. We need to up our game and not partake in abusive responses... We need to support the moderation as well as highlight zero tolerant policy for religious abuse.. Austerlitz was a good example made...

 

[Cherokee]

Over the years I have realised the best way to enjoy this forum without rancour is to be a silent reader and sparingly contribute to threads which are worthy not to mention some light hearted jest every now and then. This is coming from a guy whose first name( before I changed it to Cherokee) was Trolla-Lala. I have done my share of trolling and have got my share of bans as well . I guess with time most people mature out of it except demented feral troglodytes on both sides whose entire online existence is about all that.

Now I just visit to read threads and rarely post . Best way to navigate madness of this place without getting mad yourself.

 

[Itachi]

Now I just visit to read threads and rarely post .

Is that a avatar pic of Kenpachi Zaraki from Bleach that I see?

 

[Cherokee]

Is that a avatar pic of Kenpachi Zaraki from Bleach that I see?

Correct my fellow Otaku .

 

[padamchen]

introduce an Indian mod

You might as well also give him a Pakistani passport then.

I however have often said that this place should only have Pakistani mods.

They've made a right winger the mod of the Turkish section, and now that forum has effectively become a no-go area for any non Turk who has an interest in Turkish affairs or surrounding regions/ethnicities where the Turks are directly involved, because this guy just has the sub-forum power to outright ban a member.

@jamahir @Beast @opruh @rambro

Then you come back and complain. But what's the use? Its like giving a favored nationality their embassy on your soil. To do whatever they feel like.

They actually have an active thread where they converse in Turkish and decide who to target collectively and report to the moderator team so that the barrage of reports attracts attention, if not outright reprisal ("let's get this p*g banned ..."). And @Dubious got pulled into it last night, and I was simply too whacked to argue.

Its a biased move and should be reversed.

@Oscar @waz @Arsalan @WebMaster @Horus

Cheers, Doc

 

[I.R.A]

That is why you don't ever think that I am .... the only me. No matter how knowledgeable you are, your arrogance, pride and hatred would prove you how little you are from inside. Being knowledgeable and remaining humble are virtues not bestowed upon many.Walk away and Ignoring the ignorance and baseless lies ...... is Islam 101.

Open the religious forum, let the people discuss ..... it happens anyways, all the time, but in a very negative fashion. Putting a ban because you are afraid of trolls who would post blasphemous content ...... well the TTA couldn't control himself, how do you expect to control many trolls and multiple ids whose only agenda is to insult? Let the silent readers read the serious content for any religion.

You can ask Indians to elect their own favorite Pakistani who can moderate them. Making an Indian a mod for Indians would be making his / her life harder.

 

[Cookie Monster]

An admirable post. My responses - not comments, that sounds too judgemental - interleaved below:



I think Oscar wanted to dissipate a lot of cloudy thinking going around, and coalesce opinion around two poles - do we want Indians on the board or not? Not international participation, as you have argued; specifically Indian. It is only India with whom Pakistan, and Pakistani members of this forum, have serious problems; it is only for an Indian, therefore, that a Pakistani temper starts getting white-hot; only in discussions with Indians, where Pakistanis are all Muslim, and Indians are for the overwhelming part not Muslim, do tempers flare up, and mutual disdain for each others' faith system crops up and takes an increasingly strident tone.

While we think these issues through

From the Indian point of view, there are actually two groups; one group b.

The above isn't the issue that arose with the recent events. The issue is being FAIR across the board. Let me explain in the few key points below
1) The member who committed the offense holds the title of "Think Tank"
--> Yes he may have become infuriated with trolls who were instigating but he took things far beyond an acceptable level with what he said...unbecoming of his title of TT. That is no way to handle it. If the trolls are being offensive u report them...even if they cross the line and insult ur religion, u do not insult their religion back and get away with it bcuz they did it first. It's simple insulting someone's religion(bcuz it's a sensitive issue) should mean a ban...no ifs or buts.

2) Even more bothersome is the fact that other members have been handed out bans or punished in other ways for far less.
--> This makes ppl even more uneasy bcuz it seems like favoritism. Punishment/bans should be handed out across the board for any violations.

IMO the forum shouldn't be made as per the wishes of Pakistanis...it should remain unbiased and equal for all internationally. Religious insults shouldn't be allowed for ANY religion bcuz other ppl give importance to their religion as much as we Pakistani Muslims do. In case a violation does happen like the one that happened...the member should be banned for a certain duration, his/her hurtful comments must be deleted, and he/she must issue an apology. Mods should use a strike system...three(or some other agreeable number) strikes and u r out(banned permanently).

Also as for a suggestion to curb trolls and improve the quality of the forum...I had this idea linked below
Prestige Points
It sort of makes the forum "democratic" giving the members of this forum to sort of "vote" on each post based on its quality. With this members can accumulate or lose prestige points.

@Nilgiri @Joe Shearer

Your two citations are immeasurably depressing. I have to leave the forum and bring myself to some better state. I had never thought that he was capable of vulgarity.

কি করলি রে তুই, আমাদের সবার নাক কাইটা ফেলাইলি।

When I say "international" that includes "Indian" participation. It includes all other ppl with which Pakistanis might have a difference of opinion(where tensions can easily flare up...eg Israeli). So yes when I say international I mean EVERYONE whether or not they are seen as an enemy. Bcuz I know that at the end of the day I can agree to disagree. I can debate on sensitive topics and keep it respectful. Of course I do not represent ALL Pakistanis. I'm only giving my opinion bcuz I know my own limits...and I would like to think other mature Pakistanis can do the same. Without exposure to other ppl and their perspectives, one can end up with an increasingly myopic view. If Indians never come into contact with Pakistanis...they might blindly follow how the Indian media portrays us even more...and vice versa.

This is why I proposed that prestige point system. It will give a chance for like minded(in terms of maturity, patience, and open mindedness) ppl to coalesce together. It would create a democracy of sorts. Each one of us can award a prestige point(positive or negative) to another member's every post based on whether it's trolling/offensive/etc OR a positive contribution. With this trolls would fast lose prestige points while serious members would accumulate them. These prestige points can be used to set limits on each thread. Only above a certain level can ppl reply there(like senior's cafe). This will contain/quarantine trolls to low prestige sections. The quality of high prestige sections would remain intact.

There are two possible downfalls of such a system.
1) Trolls band together and give each other prestige points and also use their alternate accounts to give prestige points as well.
--> this would be futile bcuz after a few attempts of posting in high prestige sections mods will catch them and ban that account. Also it would require way too much work to do this with alternate accounts bcuz so many serious members would still be handing out negative prestige to their troll posts.

2) If the majority of the members on PDF are trolls then as this prestige system would be somewhat democratic in nature...it would effectively backfire on the minority of serious/non troll members.
--> this would be the least of my concerns bcuz if trolls make up the majority then the forum is already dead at that point for serious members.

I suggest the above bcuz if we can somehow contain the trolls then there would be less tensions flaring up, less insults thrown at each other(in high prestige sections) bcuz it would be made up of mostly open minded, mature, gentlemen like ppl. Otherwise such things would continue to come up. This isn't the first occurrence of such an event nor the last.

Over the years I have realised the best way to enjoy this forum without rancour is to be a silent reader and sparingly contribute to threads which are worthy not to mention some light hearted jest every now and then. This is coming from a guy whose first name( before I changed it to Cherokee) was Trolla-Lala. I have done my share of trolling and have got my share of bans as well . I guess with time most people mature out of it except demented feral troglodytes on both sides whose entire online existence is about all that.

Now I just visit to read threads and rarely post . Best way to navigate madness of this place without getting mad yourself.

I was a silent reader for years until I finally joined...mainly so I could ask questions about things I didn't know.

@Tps43 any chance Django coming back? Like do u know him outside this forum? If the contention was over no action being taken against Austerlitz, then I believe it's been solved. I hear he did get a ban and demotion.

@Itachi nice name...I thought about picking that name when making my account but then chose not to. Itachi is my favorite character among all the different anime so far.

 

[Tps43]

@Tps43 any chance Django coming back? Like do u know him outside this forum? If the contention was over no action being taken against Austerlitz, then I believe it's been solved. I hear he did get a ban and demotion.

I am quite hopeful he will as soon as he read his mails.
Yes that champo go demoted and banned.

 

[313ghazi]

Forums are no fun without a difference of opinion. You only have to look at the other Pakistani defence forums for an example.

The levels of trolling on this forum are quite high. I put this down too;

1. Not enough mods for the traffic
2. Suprisingly this forum still attracts young people
3. Bhakts

The answer to your question is we need to allow all sorts of members on the forum, but strictly control what is said. The below is a typical example of what happens on this forum.

• new topic
• post
• post
• offensive post
• reaction
• reaction
• reaction
• report to mods
• reaction
• reaction to reactions
• reaction to reactions of reactions
• 100 posts later... mod deletes offending post.
• At this point everyone is in a trolling war, nobody cares about the first post
• reaction
• reaction
  
• topic goes down the toilet

To resolve this you need;

1. More moderators spread out across different time zones.
2. Anyone below 1000 posts who has a post reported should automatically have that post hidden at the same time.
3. Anyone with over 1000 posts who has 5 different reports of a post should have the post hidden until mods can deal with it.
4. Thread bans for people (ie ban from a particular topic)
5. Short term bans for anyone responding to trolling with trolling

 

[VCheng]

....I think the current system is fine (ppl have adjusted to it mostly, those that have left have left etc)...just have a zero tolerance attitude to religion talk (when its mocking...whichever religion it is...similar to family/personal attack stuff) from now on (which is a forum rule to begin with I suppose, but right now being interpreted/implemented at mod discretion, rather than being a more singular application).

As I said elsewhere already, systems always achieve the results they are designed to achieve, and the right of the management to run their forum as they see fit should be respected at all times.

What can I add except merely observing that such recurrences will remain periodic until it is understood that using religion as the basis of anything that must be fair to all is just as problematic for a state as it is for a forum, and such a realization is not likely to happen in either the country or this forum.

This would be a good time to remind all that participating in any forum is a voluntary choice for all members, and that choice should also be respected.

Until and unless some privileged members are stripped from the immunity to troll/abuse/mock whoever they can and in how disgusting language they can things won't improve. Also either make mod someone who can spend time here and is unbiased or make some kind of auto bot that automatically removes the post that contains offensive words e.g Reddit's automod.

Enforcing any set of rules can only be as good as the people trusted to do the job in this forum, just as in the country it claims to represent.