WMD & Missiles Question Thread

[Hyperion]

Who is Syria and what is Jordan? Are you kidding me? IAF will fry their nascent arses in couple of minutes.

No, we are neither stupid nor penniless. We are unorganized, unwilling to take risks, and have lost confidence in our own abilities. If someone amongst us tries something, we sit back and cheer at his/her failure, never applaud him on his success.

We as a nation need to follow a "can do" mantra, and stop whining about all that is unwell with world and "Islamic Ummah"

But why haven't we developed anything of the sort ? I thought a good Air-Defense system was a poor man's answer to an effective air-force ? Thats the way the Jordanians went & so did the Syrians & thats the prime reason why there isn't an aerial blockade over Syria like the one imposed over Libya so...so many months ago !

Surely we can't be that broke that we can't buy them off the shelf & surely we can't be that inept that we couldn't pull off an Al-Khalid or a JF-17 like JV with the Chinese ! What gives...why didn't we consider them ? Off the top of my head I could only think of a lack of importance attached to such systems by the PAF & the PA !

 

[Armstrong]

Who is Syria and what is Jordan? Are you kidding me? IAF will fry their nascent arses in couple of minutes.

No, we are neither stupid nor penniless. We are unorganized, unwilling to take risks, and have lost confidence in our own abilities. If someone amongst us tries something, we sit back and cheer at his/her failure, never him on his success.

We as a nation need to follow a "can do" mantra, and stop whining about all that is unwell with world and "Islamic Ummah"

Nah...I don't buy into that ! We're getting the F-22Ps, the JF-17s, the Al-Khalids, MRBMs, SRBMs, tactical nukes, FACs, their advanced versions & so many other smaller goodies - Its not a lack of ambition that is hindering us ! Its a lack of importance associated with Long Range SAM for I can't recall a single instance in our past 20-30 years when we had them ! I think that as an answer to our threat assessment we're concentrating more on 'detection' hence the AWACs & the beefed up radar network (especially for the navy) & 'interception' in the form of F-16s as the higher-end & the JF-17 as the lower-end of the mix !

I think we may not value the Long Range SAM systems too highly enough otherwise we could have gone for what the Chinese have come up with or it could be that we're waiting for the Chinese systems to mature more (we don't have any other options) like we are with the J-10Bs !

And whats this got to do with the Muslim Ummah !

The Syrians have the S-300s & the Jordanians have the Patriot System !

 

[Hyperion]

We don't have any such system, nor have we started any work on such a thing. Iron Dome is an ADS, highly specialized, consisting of numerous highly specialized parts for tracking, guidance, kill vehicles (various). Israel is lightyears ahead in such things and is selling the same to India.

Patriot system may seem very attractive, however, as it is only a first gen ABM system, it's only effective against legacy missiles. It will be almost useless against most modern Indian missiles. To counter the latest breed of Indian missiles we need something similar to RIM-SM3, which the US will never be selling to us.

Peace!

that is one thing but in case of war or india fires its missile onto our land then we should be having appropriate mechanism to shoot their missile down before it reaches in any of our cities or villages?? like israels iron dome system protected most israeli areas from Hamas rockets. Turkey and kuwait are acquiring Patriotic missiles and india is also building ABM systems.

Buddy we can fry them, but so can they. We will fire 100 and hit 50. When they fire 100 all 100 will land pretty accurately.

Nah...I don't buy into that ! We're getting the F-22Ps, the JF-17s, the Al-Khalids, MRBMs, SRBMs, tactical nukes, FACs, their advanced versions & so many other smaller goodies - Its not a lack of ambition that is hindering us ! Its a lack of importance associated with Long Range SAM for I can't recall a single instance in our past 20-30 years when we had them ! I think that as an answer to our threat assessment we're concentrating more on 'detection' hence the AWACs & the beefed up radar network (especially for the navy) & 'interception' in the form of F-16s as the higher-end & the JF-17 as the lower-end of the mix !

I think we may not value the Long Range SAM systems too highly enough otherwise we could have gone for what the Chinese have come up with or it could be that we're waiting for the Chinese systems to mature more (we don't have any other options) like we are with the J-10Bs !

And whats this got to do with the Muslim Ummah !

The Syrians have the S-300s & the Jordanians have the Patriot System !

 

[Armstrong]

We don't have any such system, nor have we started any work on such a thing. Iron Dome is an ADS, highly specialized, consisting of numerous highly specialized parts for tracking, guidance, kill vehicles (various). Israel is lightyears ahead in such things and is selling the same to India.

Patriot system may seem very attractive, however, as it is only a first gen ABM system, it's only effective against legacy missiles. It will be almost useless against most modern Indian missiles. To counter the latest breed of Indian missiles we need something similar to RIM-SM3, which the US will never be selling to us.

Peace!




Buddy we can fry them, but so can they. We will fire 100 and hit 50. When they fire 100 all 100 will land pretty accurately.

Hence my question : Why not ? We clearly value the SPADA 2000 which is fairly good system but it has only 25 kms worth of engagement range (Spada 2000 Air Defence Missile System - Army Technology). Why haven't we gone for a longer-range one ? Surely we could have financed something alongside the Chinese which would provide a SPADA 2000 like performance at a 100-150 km engagement range ?

 

[A.Rafay]

We don't have any such system, nor have we started any work on such a thing. Iron Dome is an ADS, highly specialized, consisting of numerous highly specialized parts for tracking, guidance, kill vehicles (various). Israel is lightyears ahead in such things and is selling the same to India.

Patriot system may seem very attractive, however, as it is only a first gen ABM system, it's only effective against legacy missiles. It will be almost useless against most modern Indian missiles. To counter the latest breed of Indian missiles we need something similar to RIM-SM3, which the US will never be selling to us.

Peace!




Buddy we can fry them, but so can they. We will fire 100 and hit 50. When they fire 100 all 100 will land pretty accurately.

So, We dont have any of these systems Neither the effective missile intercept Capability Nor the Anti Missile Defence Systems, Only our 50 out of 100 will hit them while we sit and see their all 100 land on our cities???

 

[Hyperion]

So, We dont have any of these systems Neither the effective missile intercept Capability Nor the Anti Missile Defence Systems, Only our 50 out of 100 will hit them while we sit and see their all 100 land on our cities???

Yara the threat of those 50 falling on them will dissuade them from trying anything!

 

[A.Rafay]

Yara the threat of those 50 falling on them will dissuade them from trying anything!

And what about us When they already had 100 missiles in air waiting to strike us?? We dont have enough capability to shoot even half of them down! We should spend some bucks in this field.

look at this, it makes me angry:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/220662-india-test-fires-ballistic-missile-interceptor.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/222302-enemy-ballistic-missile-downed-space-next-month.html

 

[Hyperion]

Yara, on the phone with bhabhi.... If you're fishing for best option available to us.... then I'd say go for the upcoming Chinese clone of the S400.

Hence my question : Why not ? We clearly value the SPADA 2000 which is fairly good system but it has only 25 kms worth of engagement range (Spada 2000 Air Defence Missile System - Army Technology). Why haven't we gone for a longer-range one ? Surely we could have financed something alongside the Chinese which would provide a SPADA 2000 like performance at a 100-150 km engagement range ?

@Armstrong & @A.Rafay a good primer for both of you. Read the following introductory article on Russian ABM efforts, it's somewhat better than the ones on Wiki!

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-ABM-Systems.html

 

[A.Rafay]

Yara, on the phone with bhabhi.... If you're fishing for best option available to us.... then I'd say go for the upcoming Chinese clone of the S400.

Russian/Soviet Anti-Ballistic Missile Systems

At this page of wiki i found this

High altitude air defence systems
HQ-2B
Tariq HQ-10 named after Tariq ibn-Ziyad. An Umayyad Amazigh general, who swept Hispania with Muslim army.
Difah HQ-16
Tipu S-400 (SA-21) Chinese name HQ-19. Tipu Sultan. (1750–1799).also known as the Tiger of Mysore.
Muhafiz SA-15 – 15 in service
MIM-104 Patriot PAC 2

Does pakistan have all above mentioned goodies??

 

[Hyperion]

LOL --- sabb bakwas... kissi fanboy nay edit kiya hua hai!

At this page of wiki i found this

High altitude air defence systems
HQ-2B
Tariq HQ-10 named after Tariq ibn-Ziyad. An Umayyad Amazigh general, who swept Hispania with Muslim army.
Difah HQ-16
Tipu S-400 (SA-21) Chinese name HQ-19. Tipu Sultan. (1750–1799).also known as the Tiger of Mysore.
Muhafiz SA-15 – 15 in service
MIM-104 Patriot PAC 2

Does pakistan have all above mentioned goodies??

 

[A.Rafay]

LOL --- ...sabb bakwas kissi fanboy nay edit kiya hua hai!

it may be true, who knows?? We should have a seperate sticky thread for these.

I think pakistan should make efforts to acquire this tech indigenous or take help china like JV.

 

[JonAsad]

Anti ballistic missile shield is still not mature enough to be combat ready-
Every test Amrika or any one else has done was performed under controlled enviornment-
The simulations may result in adapt success but in war time its a totally different scenario-
Ofcourse salvo of missiles will result in few passing the shield but one will be enough to achieve the intended target-

Our policy seems like to make as many nukes as possible to brute force past ABM shield-
Not all of the india will be covered under the ABMs- most probably it will be made active in important strategic cities and locations-

Our strategy wrt india is pretty simple- They make them we buy them of the shelf- so i am sure if the need arises we will be able to come up with ABMs of our own- Right now R & D on ABMs will be relatively expensive and economically not viable-

We are still achieving the minimum deterrence levels- as soon as the threshold breaks we look to counter it ASAP- like was the case of second strike capabilities i.e nuclear sub-

 

[alimobin memon]

All the Ballistic missiles are transferring to Scram jet systems in next decade , there is no capable Scram jet Air defense system to Counter the missiles , Furthermore Having a long range sam in Pakistan scenario is not as necessary as u guys think , I know people from PAF who have admitted that we indeed are in lack of Long range SAM but we have AWACS to detect them first and counter them , First of all india is our neighbour for example our fighters with even max 60km like F7pg for 15 m^2 like SU30 can be easily engaged with missiles fired by them, However I am not saying SU30mki is sitting duck but my point is PAF can intercept and reach to the incoming invading fighter like long range sam. We dont just owe AWACS but looking at the new capabilities we have 10 AESA radars with 450km and 110000 ft range of detection to get ready to intercept any jet or missile in the world afterall AESA is the Best of radars. For a war scenario Long range sam sites if detected by enemy are sitting ducks rather than PAF has kept its interest in creating 1000's of MAN PADS yes ! they are better then the Fixed position SAMS because they can be deployed anywhere furthermore saying the infrared system of MANPADS won't work on new jets is wrong the AWACS and Jammers can counter the COUNTER MEASURES (ECCM) to create room for better visuality for the man pads.
kargil war is example of Excellency of manpads destroying a mach 2 mig 21 aircraft and damaging other.

One more thing Defensive position is always less equipped then offensive so is with pakistan. we may not have quantity but we do have quality. Mirages are the only draw backs but are being replaced. CH3 UCAV was inducted in 2011 so was AESA radar and there are atleast 2 GOOD news's inducted by PAF as Defense system yes I am not saying spada 2000 but something else.

Defense Forum has somehow given room to the terrorists the information regarding the systems of PAF which can be seen in kamra attack, thats why there are no more news's being shared to people. We have more than 50 jf17 no doubt. Saying that i watched the video the PAF official said this or that is mostly an planned interview that what questions can be asked by the interviewer to the official

so guys have faith this is not kargil time or sanctions time we have everything we need. And if we had a luck in 80's u might had being having gripens and getting them update to NG versions so this is not like that GOVT or military has no money. the budget maybe 6 bn$ but Our countries military has manufactured its own industries and exports to get additional money. Like we get atleast 900mn $ overall exports this money is divided like for example 300mn for army 300 for navy and for airforce 300 ... This is huge amount for region of asian countries , Furthermore now we have jf17 almost half its parts are made in pakistan which saves the imports from west of parts of jets which cost 40% more than manufactured in pac so there is money.

Its just that everything cant be shared , First we civilian given access to google earth where even i know where is f16 of paf parked 2 months ago so these kinds of things affect the security. Just have faith i say...

 

[Mav3rick]

The main advantage of an anti missle system is its deterrence, its not much use against Russia for example because they have thousands of nuclear weapons, but against N Korea, Iran, or even in the event of war with Pakistan it works quite well because of the unknowen. Under the USA M.A.D (Mutual Assured Detructiion) doctrine even the use of one WMD or attempted calls for the complete destruction of the country or countrys involved. One missile shot at the USA could result in a 1000 being returned.

So in essence, if a country has finally reached the point where it must target the US mainland with Nuclear Weapons, it must aim to annihilate all military targets and other targets of value (with minimum collateral civilian loss) multiple times over.......the first attack or attempt should also be considered the final attempt. In this scenario, if US cities are spared then the US would think many times over in responding especially over civilian targets.

 

[A1Kaid]

Pakistan needs to develop high yield thermonuclear warheads, in the 50-100 megaton range. Enough of the tactical nukes. Pakistan can either get serious about it's long term security or it will face serious trouble in future when dealing with rogue foreign powers.