Will Islamic World Accept Turkey's leadership?

[cloud4000]

How can Turkey be a leader of the Muslim world when it's a member of pro-Western NATO and seeking membership in pro-Western EU? Shouldn't it set its own path?

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

By here are you referring to Scandinavia?

Yes, a decision was taken already 1593 in Sweden, to give Lutheranism the premier role.
Calvinism has had very little influence here since then.
Lutheran Priest all over Sweden got a task to visit all their herd at regular intervals and hand out questions

 

[Oracle 33]

How can Turkey be a leader of the Muslim world when it's a member of pro-Western NATO and seeking membership in pro-Western EU? Shouldn't it set its own path?

EU is dead even UK wants to leave, Turkey should look towards Asia if they had any sense.

 

[Zulkarneyn]

You didn't answer my question. Let's say we create the Islamic Union (IU) tomorrow and its Capital is Ankara. It will require 'Institutions' to run the administrative elements of this rather gigantic confederate union (It will not be a federation). Those institutions will run the newly created IU. If Turkey is home to all of those institutions, its going to give Turkey too much power on other member states. For instance Turkey will control its Banking, Courts, Currency maybe even the Military. That kind of power concentrated in one country is not going to work nor other member states are going to accept it. We can have free border trade, logistical infrastructure, similar education system from school level up to postgraduate level and so on. These elements are doable but my point remains that concentration of power in Turkey is not going to work. We would have to divide the institutions among other member states so they too have a genuine stake in the union instead of Turkey controlling most of it. That said, OIC's combined GDP (PPP) is about 15 trillion dollars among them are nations with very high GDP/Capita income, they will not be willing to share their wealth with other member states.

If you open a map and look north of Pakistan you will see the Turkic countries from Turkmenistan to Kazakistan. As i said, it doesn't necessarily have to occur overnight, with patience, determination, focus and hard work it's possible. Your question raises important issues on its institutional nature, currency, trade, investment, transportation and so on. If we look at the European Union we see the same, power is not accumulated in one country alone, but the biggest weight and unoficcial power rests with Germany, even if Germany's population percentage wise wouldn't even account to 20% of the total. I get your points and they are entirely valid. Yet the process is one of incrementalization and gradual integration. Currently what i see prospect in short term is Turkey's immediate proximity and cultural proximity, aka Turkic countries north of Pakistan and west of the Caspian Sea, Azerbaijan and Turkey. If/when we manage to construct a federation that's in my view possible within a few decades, and by then Pakistan hopefully will exceed 10$K GDP per capita. Not a leader as in Ankara or Istanbul as the capital, but the unofficial capital. Not rested in our geopolitical ambition, but rather because greater cooperation and shared interests unavoidably will lead to greater gains for all. In other words, not oprerating on the basis of narrow zero-sum outcome policies but positive-sum long-sightedness.

If and when we make it so far (in a few decades, hopefully), the diverse institutions can be based in countries according to their economic/population weight, since decisions need to reflect all parties - to minimize the tyranny of the strong

 

[Kompromat]

To be very honest, a union of Turkey, Central Asian States and Pakistan is a lot more plausible to me. Arab League has its own priorities, i doubt it will join such a project.

If you open a map and look north of Pakistan you will see the Turkic countries from Turkmenistan to Kazakistan. As i said, it doesn't necessarily have to occur overnight, with patience, determination, focus and hard work it's possible. Your question raises important issues on its institutional nature, currency, trade, investment, transportation and so on. If we look at the European Union we see the same, power is not accumulated in one country alone, but the biggest weight and unoficcial power rests with Germany, even if Germany's population percentage wise wouldn't even account to 20% of the total. I get your points and they are entirely valid. Yet the process is one of incrementalization and gradual integration. Currently what i see prospect in short term is Turkey's immediate proximity and cultural proximity, aka Turkic countries north of Pakistan and west of the Caspian Sea, Azerbaijan and Turkey. If/when we manage to construct a federation that's in my view possible within a few decades, and by then Pakistan hopefully will exceed 10$K GDP per capita. Not a leader as in Ankara or Istanbul as the capital, but the unofficial capital. Not rested in our geopolitical ambition, but rather because greater cooperation and shared interests unavoidably will lead to greater gains for all. In other words, not oprerating on the basis of narrow zero-sum outcome policies but positive-sum long-sightedness.

If and when we make it so far (in a few decades, hopefully), the diverse institutions can be based in countries according to their economic/population weight, since decisions need to reflect all parties - to minimize the tyranny of the strong

 

[pts_m_h_2016]

This proposal will never work so long as the decision is not mandatory.

This is exactly why all artificial unions like European Union or ASEAN or weak ones like OIC or African Union remain feeble, dysfunctional and many times, at loggerheads with each other, if not dependent on external powers.

The only political institution that works to maximum efficiency today is the nation state, or country.

Anything short of a country will never work. So long as you give them the option to leave, citing differences in opinion or whatever excuse, different parties will use their real or perceived grievances to part ways.

Only when abandoning the union will be guaranteed to be met with the death penalty, as in most countries, for acts of treason, can you make a political union work.

That is why countries work.

Take your country, Turkey.

If you gave Kurds the option of leaving at will instead of going in and killing separatists PKK for inciting 'rebellion', would you be able to maintain hold on the territorial integrity of your Republic of Turkiye?

This same principle is valid in the case of all countries. No part of a country is allowed to secede, no part of a country is allowed to conduct independent foreign policy or defence policy. Like Hong Kong and Macau within the framework of the People's Republic of China.

The key ingredients to make a political union work is 'force'. Only by forcing these disparate groups to join by using overwhelming force, by making the allure of joining the "Islamic Ummah" far stronger than splitting apart (this should be an easy task convincing the peoples that Muslims of today, divided as they are, remain weak. United, the Muslim world would be immediately a giant in almost everything and a potential superpower at the centre of Eurasia with ample population, resources and maybe even talent), can you make this union work.

Much like in the case of countries.

Citizens of countries are made to sing national anthems, told stories of their independence, valour of heroes, the tall tales of sacrifices made by patriots and so on, to convince the citizenry of the value of belonging to a 'nation'. Citizens have to be repeatedly told and drilled into their heads that 'betraying their nation' is a 'sin' or equivalent.

Only then, with the notion of 'holiness' or equivalent attached to the concept of nation state, with the penalty of death dangling over the necks of those who wish to separate, can you make this concept of a political union called the nation state work.

Other political unions that leave open the decision for members to leave or join at will, must always fail. Theoretically and as seen from practice, this is the case.

Unfortunately or fortunately, whatever you call it, Turkey is just not strong enough to force other Muslim countries into a union or completely pulverize foreign non-Muslim powers to death in the Muslim World region in local fights, thus, Turkey is not able to enforce this leadership for the foreseeable future.

In summary, leadership can never be optional. A general can not give his subordinates the option of following or disobeying his orders at will. Leadership has to be imposed by force upon a population, the overwhelming majority of whom, support it.

 

[Brooklyn]

How can Turkey be a leader of the Muslim world when it's a member of pro-Western NATO and seeking membership in pro-Western EU? Shouldn't it set its own path?

I think the Turks have realized that the West hates Turkey for being Muslim. Just a while back ago Geert Wilders ,a Dutch party leader , said that Europe wants less Islam not more Islam and that is why Turkey can never join.

Apparently 1 in 3 Dutch people agree with him as that's how many Dutch want to vote for his party.

Erdogan has finally woken up and smelled the coffee and is now trying throw his cards in with the Muslim world.

 

[flamer84]

I think the Turks have realized that the West hates Turkey for being Muslim. Just a while back ago Geert Wilders ,a Dutch party leader , said that Europe wants less Islam not more Islam and that is why Turkey can never join.

Apparently 1 in 3 Dutch people agree with him as that's how many Dutch want to vote for his party.

Erdogan has finally woken up and smelled the coffee and is now trying throw his cards in with the Muslim world.

Why is it that the West gets blamed every time ? Last I checked it's the West who received millions of muslims and Turks not the other way around,and that brought suicide bombers on Western streets.When Turkey asked for Western assistance it received it,no questions asked,see the Patriot deployments,when the EU asked Turkey to behave like a normal nation in the refugee crisis it received blackmail.Hate comes mostly from one side and it's not the West.

 

[-SINAN-]

First of all Islamic World should be in unity if they are going to accept Turkey's leadership....as there is no such thing and not gonna be in the future.....No.

And after all do we want to take on such a role ? Seriously dude, do you want another dagger in your back ?

 

[Zulkarneyn]

This proposal will never work so long as the decision is not mandatory.

This is exactly why all artificial unions like European Union or ASEAN or weak ones like OIC or African Union remain feeble, dysfunctional and many times, at loggerheads with each other, if not dependent on external powers.

The only political institution that works to maximum efficiency today is the nation state, or country.

Anything short of a country will never work. So long as you give them the option to leave, citing differences in opinion or whatever excuse, different parties will use their real or perceived grievances to part ways.

Only when abandoning the union will be guaranteed to be met with the death penalty, as in most countries, for acts of treason, can you make a political union work.

That is why countries work.

Take your country, Turkey.

If you gave Kurds the option of leaving at will instead of going in and killing separatists PKK for inciting 'rebellion', would you be able to maintain hold on the territorial integrity of your Republic of Turkiye?

This same principle is valid in the case of all countries. No part of a country is allowed to secede, no part of a country is allowed to conduct independent foreign policy or defence policy. Like Hong Kong and Macau within the framework of the People's Republic of China.

The key ingredients to make a political union work is 'force'. Only by forcing these disparate groups to join by using overwhelming force, by making the allure of joining the "Islamic Ummah" far stronger than splitting apart (this should be an easy task convincing the peoples that Muslims of today, divided as they are, remain weak. United, the Muslim world would be immediately a giant in almost everything and a potential superpower at the centre of Eurasia with ample population, resources and maybe even talent), can you make this union work.

Much like in the case of countries.

Citizens of countries are made to sing national anthems, told stories of their independence, valour of heroes, the tall tales of sacrifices made by patriots and so on, to convince the citizenry of the value of belonging to a 'nation'. Citizens have to be repeatedly told and drilled into their heads that 'betraying their nation' is a 'sin' or equivalent.

Only then, with the notion of 'holiness' or equivalent attached to the concept of nation state, with the penalty of death dangling over the necks of those who wish to separate, can you make this concept of a political union called the nation state work.

Other political unions that leave open the decision for members to leave or join at will, must always fail. Theoretically and as seen from practice, this is the case.

Unfortunately or fortunately, whatever you call it, Turkey is just not strong enough to force other Muslim countries into a union or completely pulverize foreign non-Muslim powers to death in the Muslim World region in local fights, thus, Turkey is not able to enforce this leadership for the foreseeable future.

In summary, leadership can never be optional. A general can not give his subordinates the option of following or disobeying his orders at will. Leadership has to be imposed by force upon a population, the overwhelming majority of whom, support it.

States as primary entities will survive in the foreseeable future, without a doubt. But history is a testament to the opposite as well. Power comes with the consent of the governed, that's legitimate power, however what you speak of sounds more like legitimacy as derived from fear and force, like the ones we see in Egypt and North Korea. Egyptians keep themselves from the streets protesting because they fear the repurcussion, death pentaly, just like how you tell. North Koreans are either heavily indoctrinated or they too fear the repurcussions of rebellion in any form.
I give you that the federations and unions we see today are weak and feeble, including the EU. However the EU still serve its purpose as tax/toll free export/import and working to secure certain economic benefits.
But it's feeble because any state could choose to disband any moment without the fear of fatal repurcussions, therefore states are undoubtedly the primary actors and the strongest entities.
I don't suggest we disband nation states in favor of a union of muslim nations, but rather working towards neofunctionalism in regional politics so that we can benefit from each other and help each other in various fields (education, health, infrastructure etc.)
another reason behind my proposed union/federation is a block that can deter and counteract against Western imperialistic agendas in their backyards. With shared intellligence between Pakistan and Turkey, on border management, increased military exercises and so on.

First of all Islamic World should be in unity if they are going to accept Turkey's leadership....as there is no such thing and not gonna be in the future.....No.

And after all do we want to take on such a role ? Seriously dude, do you want another dagger in your back ?

The original question was a rhetorical one, of course we won't act as the leader. That's what the article suggested, i was just interested in hearing about greater cooperation in our immediate geographic proximity

Why is it that the West gets blamed every time ? Last I checked it's the West who received millions of muslims and Turks not the other way around,and that brought suicide bombers on Western streets.When Turkey asked for Western assistance it received it,no questions asked,see the Patriot deployments,when the EU asked Turkey to behave like a normal nation in the refugee crisis it received blackmail.Hate comes mostly from one side and it's not the West.

Please don't write, you are making a mockery of yourself. Turkish people were invited as guest workers in Germany and Scandinavia in the 60s and 70s, they stayed and had families there. You can't point to a single terrorist attack in EU that's carried out by Turks, i dare you to google one right now. Turks have lived in relative peace and managed to integrate with efforts. The terrorism problem on European soil does not stem from Turkey and have nothing to do with Turks. It's the backfire of NATO's adventures in Middle East from the 90s onwards. Educate yourself, don't post nonsense on this thread at least

 

[T-123456]

We should stay out of the Islamic World Leadership bs, and let others who want it do it.

 

[flamer84]

Please don't write, you are making a mockery of yourself. Turkish people were invited as guest workers in Germany and Scandinavia in the 60s and 70s, they stayed and had families there. You can't point to a single terrorist attack in EU that's carried out by Turks, i dare you to google one right now. Turks have lived in relative peace and managed to integrate with efforts. The terrorism problem on European soil does not stem from Turkey and have nothing to do with Turks. It's the backfire of NATO's adventures in Middle East from the 90s onwards. Educate yourself, don't post nonsense on this thread at least

Never said that terrorists are of Turkish origin because they aren't.Terrorism is mostly a problem caused by the islamic world and its decision to stay rooted in medieval practices.Blaming the West is just a refusal of dealing with its internal problems.

 

[pts_m_h_2016]

States as primary entities will survive in the foreseeable future, without a doubt. But history is a testament to the opposite as well. Power comes with the consent of the governed, that's legitimate power, however what you speak of sounds more like legitimacy as derived from fear and force, like the ones we see in Egypt and North Korea. Egyptians keep themselves from the streets protesting because they fear the repurcussion, death pentaly, just like how you tell. North Koreans are either heavily indoctrinated or they too fear the repurcussions of rebellion in any form.

This goes for any country, including yours Turkey, or any other.

If there was no credible threat of force, or real application of force, Kurds who joined PKK would have separated and claimed their new country already.

This is true for China, Russia, America, India and the Arab world, Iraq, Syria and so on.

If you do not believe this, just give them all the freedom to leave the political union with Turkey and form their own country on their own turf at their own will, see what will happen.

The propaganda and the form of control exercised by the isolated Kim dynastic regime is perhaps a bit crude, and a little more sophisticated in China, a little more sophisticated than that in democratic countries - in the end all of them rely on brainwashing of its citizens to make them feel proud of its nationality its citizenship of this notion of 'nation state'. Same time, they ingrain in the population a belief that leaving the political union called a country is akin to a grave sin called treason and punishable by death.

Only through this form of continued subtle brainwashing can those countries gain consent of the ruled.

Everywhere, the ruled are just 'peasants', in reality.

North Koreans lead their lives just like you do, western propaganda aside. It's just that they isolated from world trade, the Kim dynastic regime employs a lot of fearmongering tactics and even punishment to keep the population in check. Otherwise, the everyday Kims and Jungs in North Korea are the same as those in the South. No difference.

I give you that the federations and unions we see today are weak and feeble, including the EU. However the EU still serve its purpose as tax/toll free export/import and working to secure certain economic benefits.
But it's feeble because any state could choose to disband any moment without the fear of fatal repurcussions, therefore states are undoubtedly the primary actors and the strongest entities.
I don't suggest we disband nation states in favor of a union of muslim nations, but rather working towards neofunctionalism in regional politics so that we can benefit from each other and help each other in various fields (education, health, infrastructure etc.)
another reason behind my proposed union/federation is a block that can deter and counteract against Western imperialistic agendas in their backyards. With shared intellligence between Pakistan and Turkey, on border management, increased military exercises and so on.

Military union or a military alliance of medium power states who are unable to design and mass produce any world leading strategic weapons systems will come to nought.

What will your military alliance be able to do?

I suggest Turkiye start a proactive brain-gain programme by drafting in high IQ individuals whether they are 4 year old, 4 month old or 88 years old or anywhere in between from anywhere in the Muslim world so long as they believe in your concept of the Khilafah, then provide them with no strings attached funding, accommodation, airfare, healthcare and other miscellaneous expenses covered, so that you can form a core or a nucleus of let's say, 250,000 strong high IQ (at least IQ above 136, let's say?) scientists, researchers and full time equivalent R&D personnel.

At its peak, the Soviet Union had something like 1.1 million R&D personnel I think, the USA today has around 1.2 to 1.3 million FTE R&D personnel, the number for China is around similar, 1.4 million personnel. Russia, if I recall correctly, is probably around 500,000 to 600,000 personnel, Japan at around 800,000 personnel and so on.

What of the Muslim world?

Instead of leaving these talents scattered, undetected, untrained or never nurtured, collect them together into multiple hi-tech and sci-tech clusters in and around Turkiye to turn Turkiye into the undisputed magnetic hub for all these talents. You would need at least 250,000 strong high IQ full time R&D personnel, to make a dent.

These 250,000 "super geniuses", plus another, let's say, 1.5 million "ordinary geniuses", that can turn the tables for your Muslim alliance.

Otherwise, it's all just dreams, some sand castles built in the air.

 

[Zulkarneyn]

Military union or a military alliance of medium power states who are unable to design and mass produce any world leading strategic weapons systems will come to nought.

What will your military alliance be able to do?

I suggest Turkiye start a proactive brain-gain programme by drafting in high IQ individuals whether they are 4 year old, 4 month old or 88 years old or anywhere in between from anywhere in the Muslim world so long as they believe in your concept of the Khilafah, then provide them with no strings attached funding, accommodation, airfare, healthcare and other miscellaneous expenses covered, so that you can form a core or a nucleus of let's say, 250,000 strong high IQ (at least IQ above 136, let's say?) scientists, researchers and full time equivalent R&D personnel.

At its peak, the Soviet Union had something like 1.1 million R&D personnel I think, the USA today has around 1.2 to 1.3 million FTE R&D personnel, the number for China is around similar, 1.4 million personnel. Russia, if I recall correctly, is probably around 500,000 to 600,000 personnel, Japan at around 800,000 personnel and so on.

What of the Muslim world?

Instead of leaving these talents scattered, undetected, untrained or never nurtured, collect them together into multiple hi-tech and sci-tech clusters in and around Turkiye to turn Turkiye into the undisputed magnetic hub for all these talents. You would need at least 250,000 strong high IQ full time R&D personnel, to make a dent.

These 250,000 "super geniuses", plus another, let's say, 1.5 million "ordinary geniuses", that can turn the tables for your Muslim alliance.

Otherwise, it's all just dreams, some sand castles built in the air.

Perfectly legitimate point, one of my original emphasis as well, if we are to allow the constant flow of our greatest brains to the US we won't get far in any given time. Yet i can tell you the current government are heavily investing in keeping these brains in Turkey, not just keeping but spotting and utilizing this potential. These are ongoing efforts in Turkey as we speak. I'll provide you evidence later, i'll have to go to sleep in a bit.
Currently we are working on national Tank Altay, we've got one of the most advanced systems in UAV, national rifle from MKEK MPT-76, fifth generation TF-X fighter, LHDs, submarines and much more, most of these projects are completed and most of them are on par with Western hardware. Other than military industry complex, there are giant projects many of them completed in the forms of airports, hospitals, bridges, tunnels etc.
These developments are not necessarily projected on our total GDP or HDI index, yet quality of life is increasing and you won't be able to find many similar projects of this magnitude in major European countries.
Our current leaders know how to exploit the potential, and your proposal with spotting and utilizing our most intelligent people doesn't sound half bad

 

[pts_m_h_2016]

Perfectly legitimate point, one of my original emphasis as well, if we are to allow the constant flow of our greatest brains to the US we won't get far in any given time. Yet i can tell you the current government are heavily investing in keeping these brains in Turkey, not just keeping but spotting and utilizing this potential. These are ongoing efforts in Turkey as we speak. I'll provide you evidence later, i'll have to go to sleep in a bit.
Currently we are working on national Tank Altay, we've got one of the most advanced systems in UAV, national rifle from MKEK MPT-76, fifth generation TF-X fighter, LHDs, submarines and much more, most of these projects are completed and most of them are on par with Western hardware. Other than military industry complex, there are giant projects many of them completed in the forms of airports, hospitals, bridges, tunnels etc.
These developments are not necessarily projected on our total GDP or HDI index, yet quality of life is increasing and you won't be able to find many similar projects of this magnitude in major European countries.
Our current leaders know how to exploit the potential, and your proposal with spotting and utilizing our most intelligent people doesn't sound half bad

I knew, like most people at the warmer and emotionally driven cultures, you would not be able to resist the urge to mention your ongoing projects.

Now, let's say, you snap your fingers, and every single one of your programmes you listed including the TF-X fighter jet, the most prized one in that list, materialized tonight.

Monsieur Erdogan,

You have access to all these hardware that is listed above, in hundreds of units for fighter jets, and in thousands of units for land forces.

Can you tell me, if that can help you eject Russian Federation forces from Syria - by application of force given that Russian Federation has threatened the use of tactical nuclear weapons if its forces are under attack and overrun by a Turkish-Saudi onslaught led by Americans/orchestrated by Americans?

Can you launch a satellite yet?

Can you generate power from your domestically designed nuclear plant?

Do you know how to miniaturize a nuclear device?

And how to produce a hydrogen bomb?

Do you have a nuclear propulsion technology for your nuclear attack submarine, nuclear ballistic missile submarine, aircraft carrier?

Can you even make a single domestic car brand that is 100% domestically designed and manufactured?

The point I am driving at is, don't look at these individual projects here and there scattered all around.

Organize them together, and answer this question: What is the number of Full Time Equivalent Research and Development (FTE R&D) personnel working in Turkey? And what is that number in the entire Muslim world?

Is it equal to a single country like China, America or the entire European Union? Maybe comparable to Japan's figure or Russia's figure?

Like it or not, Turkey domestically can not find sufficient high IQ talent to power your leader's ambitions. You have to source for talents, high IQ talents, identify them, and nurture them at early age, from around the Muslim world and verify that their intentions align with your Muslim union ambitions.

Even then, I am sceptical that the Muslim world has sufficient critical mass of high IQ individuals that Turkish bureaucrats can effectively select from and employ gainfully for powering its geopolitical ambitions. I can't put a finger on this number.

Do you have any estimate or idea of the number of high IQ Muslims let's say above 136 points? Bare minimum required to make some original contributions in some strategic sectors that are always off limits to foreigners.

Do you think there are more than 4 million high IQ individuals in the Muslim world select from? Don't forget the regions where most Muslims are from. Africa, poorest parts of Asia, warm, tropical. Hindu countries and cultures influenced them, they must not have been the most intelligent on average. Take a look at PISA test results, 2015.

Where do you see any Muslim majority country rank best? Do you see the pattern?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32608772

Countries ranked on maths and science
1. Singapore
2. Hong Kong
3. South Korea
4. Japan (joint)
4. Taiwan (joint)
6. Finland
7. Estonia
8. Switzerland
9. Netherlands
10. Canada
11. Poland
12. Vietnam
13. Germany
14. Australia
15. Ireland
16. Belgium
17. New Zealand
18. Slovenia
19. Austria
20. United Kingdom
21. Czech Republic
22. Denmark
23. France
24. Latvia
25. Norway
26. Luxembourg
27. Spain
28. Italy (joint)
28. United States (joint)
30. Portugal
31. Lithuania
32. Hungary
33. Iceland
34. Russia
35. Sweden
36. Croatia
37. Slovak Republic
38. Ukraine
39. Israel
40. Greece
41. Turkey
42. Serbia
43. Bulgaria
44. Romania
45. UAE
46. Cyprus
47. Thailand
48. Chile
49. Kazakhstan
50. Armenia
51. Iran
52. Malaysia
53. Costa Rica
54. Mexico
55. Uruguay
56. Montenegro
57. Bahrain
58. Lebanon
59. Georgia
60. Brazil
61. Jordan
62. Argentina
63. Albania
64. Tunisia
65. Macedonia
66. Saudi Arabia
67. Colombia
68. Qatar
69. Indonesia
70. Botswana
71. Peru
72. Oman
73. Morocco
74. Honduras
75. South Africa
76. Ghana