Why would Greek civilization be considered Western and Iranian civilization

[BeyondHeretic]

Nope that would we wrong. As Ottomans conquered territories far beyond Greece on 3 continents.

these guys:

 

[Surenas]

Nope that would we wrong. As Ottomans conquered territories far beyond Greece on 3 continents.

Why did they actually wanted to conquer more lands in the West? If they hadn't failed in Vienna, I can't see where they would've stopped. For instance, the idea that the Persians wanted to invade (as in conquer) Europe is not true; those Persian operations in Greece were only meant as a punitive expedition for the Greek support to the Ionian Revolt against the local Persian government.

 

[-SINAN-]

But that was well after the creation of ottoman empire with the fall of constantinopole ? or Istanbul , whichever you like ; I was talking about the Seljuk turks who invaded Byzantium/Anatolia , not the people afterwards who conquered territories on 3 continents like you said.

Okay that's more clear now.

But you replied this comment.

Persia never conquered Greece. Its the Turks that conquered the eastern Roman empire, which was Greek.

It's the Ottomans who conquered Greece. Also Constantinople was the Capital of the Eastern Roman Empire at the the time when Ottoman's conquered it. Seljuk's just invaded some territories of the eastern Roman empire not all of it.

Seljuk Empire

 

[BeyondHeretic]

Okay that's more clear now.

But you replied this comment.


It's the Ottomans who conquered Greece. Also Constantinople was the Capital of the Eastern Roman Empire at the the time when Ottoman's conquered it. Seljuk's just invaded some territories of the eastern Roman empire not all of it.

Seljuk Empire

ok , maybe i'm wrong , I thought ottomans and seljuks were related somehow , but my guess is ottomans were muslims and they invaded constantinopol with muslim manipulation , to compensate for the arabs who never managed to conquer that territory.

And Byzantium was essentially greek , they spoke greek and had greek costums , they were only called roman رومی by the arabs.



http://www.turkeyforyou.com/turkey_anatolia_history_seljuks_ottomans

"With the Seljuks, began the Ottoman Empire in Anatolia."

So from what it seems the ottomans were essentially a khagnate of the greater Seljuk kingdom/empire.

 

[-SINAN-]

Why did they actually wanted to conquer more lands in the West?

As you noticed they moved towards west not east. From what i know Ottoman Sultans wanted to evade fighting fellow Muslims and spread Islam. Their first objective was to conquer Orthodox church (Constantinople) which they were successful at. Second objective to conquer Catholic church (Rome).

If they hadn't failed in Vienna, I can't see where they would've stopped. For instance, the idea that the Persians wanted to invade (as in conquer) Europe is not true; those Persian operations in Greece were only meant as a punitive expedition for the Greek support to the Ionian Revolt against the local Persian government.

I get you.

First let's discuss "would they stop":

I believe they wouldn't stop, every new Sultan is expected to extend Empire's territories and they often refer themselves as Ruler of the World.

Second let's discuss "Can be they stopped if they conquered Vienna":

I believe yes, Ottoman's spread thin in a vast territory, we couldn't populate all the regions we have conquered. And many other various reasons . But i want to say that many of my brethren believes if we conquered the Vienna at the time, the world would be speaking Turkish now.

 

[Hack-Hook]

As you noticed they moved towards west not east. From what i know Ottoman Sultans wanted to evade fighting fellow Muslims and spread Islam. Their first objective was to conquer Orthodox church (Constantinople) which they were successful at. Second objective to conquer Catholic church (Rome).




I get you.

First let's discuss "would they stop":

I believe they wouldn't stop, every new Sultan is expected to extend Empire's territories and they often refer themselves as Ruler of the World.

Second let's discuss "Can be they stopped if they conquered Vienna":

I believe yes, Ottoman's spread thin in a vast territory, we couldn't populate all the regions we have conquered. And many other various reasons . But i want to say that many of my brethren believes if we conquered the Vienna at the time, the world would be speaking Turkish now.

somewhere I read it's was not just stretching thin that made Ottoman empire fail in defeating Europe . t seems they also failed to evolve , for 200 years ottoman army perfected in one way of conquering lands , they put siege on enemy and pounded them until they surrender , not any other change to the strategy .
they failed to adopt to different scenario , they also failed in manipulating Europeans to fight each other and prevent them to unite against their empire.


also I have always had a question , how much an ottoman emperor considered a Turk , after all I heard they tend to choose their queens from European women instead of the local ones so isn't it after each generation they looked more European than Local. (well it's something that someone from turkey told me and I like to knew if its true )

 

[American_Millenium]

Dumbo, there ARE things called Mediterranean civilizations...Rome, Greece, Carthage, Egypt etc were all Mediterranean civilizations..Note, idiot, that I am writing civilizationS..not just 'one' monolithic civilization...

Again terrorist, no one calls them Mediterranean civilizations for a reason. There is also a reason that Greece is commonly called the center of Western Civilization, no less by the historians who created the concept.

Sad that without East, west is nothing but just random bunch of inferior beings who couldn't even built basic toilets

Is that why you defecate on the open street to this very day?

Yeah...little whittey..thats why we have a higher average income than your sorry white assss in this country..by 'being drivers'..offcourse...LOL!

Of course you do, and I'm sure you also invented everything and built our countries for us too.

Do I even need to mention how Asians (Indians, Pakistanis, Koreans, Chinese etc) just DOMINATE American higher education sector w.r.t to our percentage population?

Haha! I love how you threw in these groups as if they are all as accomplished as each other. I don't want to post statistics here that will embarrass you. Nonetheless, there is not so much as a single amazing inventor or wealth creator from your people, or a single accomplished household name.

If you were all deported tomorrow, the only noticeable difference would be a decrease in the crime rate. The West got along just fine before mass immigration from 3rd world countries.

 

[AUz]

Again terrorist, no one calls them Mediterranean civilizations for a reason. There is also a reason that Greece is commonly called the center of Western Civilization, no less by the historians who created the concept.

Uh, whittey what?

Read scholars who have worked on antiquity and before. Rome and Greece were Mediterranean civilizations just like Egypt, Phoenicians, and others. They were not uncivilized Germanic tribe that formed the majority of uncultured Europe.

You, the dumbo retard whose mom probably divorced her husband and now living with a boyfriend omghaha, seems to apply modern, superficial understanding of Greece (the nation state) to the Greek civilization of past.i

Ancient Greeks were much closer to Persians/Egyptians of the time than uncivilized 'Westerners' ...Greek intellectual tradition was built upon Egyptian knowledge. Greeks had way more respect for uncivilized barbarians like your race

Yes, Greek Civilization is the basis of civilization of West..and Greece derived its civilization from East itself! So as I said, Western civilization is nothing more than the extension of Middle-Eastern Civilizations (Egypt, Babylonians, etc)...Without East, West was just a shi!thole with culturless barbarians..nothing more

This is the reason that in last 5000 East has dominated the world..or gave rise to way more number of dominant civilizations...than West has.

But then again, poor dumb whittey HOBOS only take last 300 years as "history" ....

Is that why you defecate on the open street to this very day?

Why do white women take p!ss inside their mouth and don't feel humiliated? Heck! even put it on INTERNET for the world to see? I thought we, the superior people of East, had given you enough culture and civilization that would have uplifted you primitive animals to the level of a sub-human...But alas! I guess you are going back to your true 'roots'

Regarding garbage on street, not a big deal. Developing/industrializing world produce alot of pollution like that when they are in process of developing. You don't need to worry..but just stay human please.

Of course you do, and I'm sure you also invented everything and built our countries for us too.

What do you mean by "invented"?

The basic ingredients of human civilization came to West from East, not vice versa.

Writing system is atleast hundred times more influential "invention" for homo sapiens than say a freaking car...Guess who gave writing system to the other and who gave car to the other?

Talk about 'inventions'? LMAO!

Your inventions could never have been possible without Mathematics, which again, was given to you by Arabs (numeric system). Roman system, which wasn't 'Western' either', was so inefficient that statistically, it is impossible to do advance algebric functions by using that system, forget about 'inventions'.

Uncivilized Westerners continued to use same system unless superior Easterners gave them yet another superior numeric system...lol, how funny and how sad.

Haha! I love how you threw in these groups as if they are all as accomplished as each other. I don't want to post statistics here that will embarrass you. Nonetheless, there is not so much as a single amazing inventor or wealth creator from your people, or a single accomplished household name.

You are an idiot. You take only last 300 years of history and brag....Well, everyone accepts the fact that last 250 years, Western people have remained ahead or outperformed others. But 250 years is like a drop of water in flowing river of history. Why not talk about 5000 years of history? Why not talk about who created humanity itself? Earliest writing systems? Earliest drawings, symbols? Earliest cities? Earliest city-states? Heck! even earliest civilizations....everything..yes, EVERYTHING comes from Middle-East/East...and all of this was later passed on to savage barbarians of Europe (your race) ...

Sadly for you, its already over. Almost. Just 300 years? How sad!

In 1900, Europeans accounted 25% of total world population. In 2050, that number is projected to be less than even 9%...and those 9% people (Europeans) would be older than rest of population (as a general trend)....

Thanks to us immigrants, and Mexicans etc..that America will still be relevant in coming century...

If you were all deported tomorrow, the only noticeable difference would be a decrease in the crime rate. The West got along just fine before mass immigration from 3rd world countries.

Deport me? LOL! Dude, U.S government will deport useless lonely dudes like you before touching me. I have remained in top 9% of my school all through..beating useless, dumb, inferior white kids...If we go by natural selection, nature selects people like me over you. That is why immigrants (indians, Pakistanis, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese etc) all outperform local populace and live a far more better life here...

 

[-SINAN-]

somewhere I read it's was not just stretching thin that made Ottoman empire fail in defeating Europe . t seems they also failed to evolve , for 200 years ottoman army perfected in one way of conquering lands , they put siege on enemy and pounded them until they surrender , not any other change to the strategy .
they failed to adopt to different scenario , they also failed in manipulating Europeans to fight each other and prevent them to unite against their empire.

Most true but Ottoman's did manipulate the European countries to each other. You know Dracula (Vlad Tepes) right ? Ottomans used his brother against him at the end Draculas head ended in Istanbul.

also I have always had a question , how much an ottoman emperor considered a Turk , after all I heard they tend to choose their queens from European women instead of the local ones so isn't it after each generation they looked more European than Local. (well it's something that someone from turkey told me and I like to knew if its true )

They are considered to be a Turk. But if you are asking genetically, i would say very less amount of Turkishness. Ottoman Sultan's had harems and harems full of slave girls which caputured from conquered lands. So yes you are right.

Ottoman Family's Descendants.

 

[American_Millenium]

Uh, whittey what?

Read scholars who have worked on antiquity and before. Rome and Greece were Mediterranean civilizations just like Egypt, Phoenicians, and others. They were not uncivilized Germanic tribe that formed the majority of uncultured Europe.

You, the dumbo retard whose mom probably divorced her husband and now living with a boyfriend omghaha, seems to apply modern, superficial understanding of Greece (the nation state) to the Greek civilization of past.i

Ancient Greeks were much closer to Persians/Egyptians of the time than uncivilized 'Westerners' ...Greek intellectual tradition was built upon Egyptian knowledge. Greeks had way more respect for uncivilized barbarians like your race

Yes, Greek Civilization is the basis of civilization of West..and Greece derived its civilization from East itself! So as I said, Western civilization is nothing more than the extension of Middle-Eastern Civilizations (Egypt, Babylonians, etc)...Without East, West was just a shi!thole with culturless barbarians..nothing more

This is the reason that in last 5000 East has dominated the world..or gave rise to way more number of dominant civilizations...than West has.

But then again, poor dumb whittey HOBOS only take last 300 years as "history" ....





Why do white women take p!ss inside their mouth and don't feel humiliated? Heck! even put it on INTERNET for the world to see? I thought we, the superior people of East, had given you enough culture and civilization that would have uplifted you primitive animals to the level of a sub-human...But alas! I guess you are going back to your true 'roots'

Regarding garbage on street, not a big deal. Developing/industrializing world produce alot of pollution like that when they are in process of developing. You don't need to worry..but just stay human please.




What do you mean by "invented"?

The basic ingredients of human civilization came to West from East, not vice versa.

Writing system is atleast hundred times more influential "invention" for homo sapiens than say a freaking car...Guess who gave writing system to the other and who gave car to the other?

Talk about 'inventions'? LMAO!

Your inventions could never have been possible without Mathematics, which again, was given to you by Arabs (numeric system). Roman system, which wasn't 'Western' either', was so inefficient that statistically, it is impossible to do advance algebric functions by using that system, forget about 'inventions'.

Uncivilized Westerners continued to use same system unless superior Easterners gave them yet another superior numeric system...lol, how funny and how sad.



You are an idiot. You take only last 300 years of history and brag....Well, everyone accepts the fact that last 250 years, Western people have remained ahead or outperformed others. But 250 years is like a drop of water in flowing river of history. Why not talk about 5000 years of history? Why not talk about who created humanity itself? Earliest writing systems? Earliest drawings, symbols? Earliest cities? Earliest city-states? Heck! even earliest civilizations....everything..yes, EVERYTHING comes from Middle-East/East...and all of this was later passed on to savage barbarians of Europe (your race) ...

Sadly for you, its already over. Almost. Just 300 years? How sad!

In 1900, Europeans accounted 25% of total world population. In 2050, that number is projected to be less than even 9%...and those 9% people (Europeans) would be older than rest of population (as a general trend)....

Thanks to us immigrants, and Mexicans etc..that America will still be relevant in coming century...




Deport me? LOL! Dude, U.S government will deport useless lonely dudes like you before touching me. I have remained in top 9% of my school all through..beating useless, dumb, inferior white kids...If we go by natural selection, nature selects people like me over you. That is why immigrants (indians, Pakistanis, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese etc) all outperform local populace and live a far more better life here...

Too long to read, I won't even bother, I'm just glad I ruined your day with a simple sentence or two you fugly, socially retarded terrorist.

There is no such thing as Mediterranean civilization. They were Western Civilizations. That is the consensus of historians and the modern populations of these countries, and no amount of crying and screaming will change that.

The only thing you out compete us in would be the amount of feces you leave on the street, ugly physical appearance, and a lack of proper bathing.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

There is the Graeco-Aryan hypothesis, which claims a relation between Greeks, Armenian and Indo-Iranian people:

Could this also be referring to the Kurgan hypothesis in some ways? The Kurgan hypothesis in my opinion is the most plausible explanation of the spread of ancient Indo-European tribes.

The Indo-Iranian people migrated from the proto-Indo-European homeland to Andronovo, & then the second migration from Andronovo brought them to lands ranging from the Iranian plateau to the Indus. As I understand it, Europe already had a population residing there from Paleolithic times, but migrations did occur towards Europe from the PIE homeland around the Black Sea.

If I am not mistaken, the Latins; a tribe in Italia & one of the original residents of Rome are also considered to have migrated from the PIE homeland.

 

[American_Millenium]

Could this also be referring to the Kurgan hypothesis in some ways? The Kurgan hypothesis in my opinion is the most plausible explanation of the spread of ancient Indo-European tribes.

The Indo-Iranian people migrated from the proto-Indo-European homeland to Andronovo, & then the second migration from Andronovo brought them to lands ranging from the Iranian plateau to the Indus. As I understand it, Europe already had a population residing there from Paleolithic times, but migrations did occur towards Europe from the PIE homeland around the Black Sea.

If I am not mistaken, the Latins; a tribe in Italia & one of the original residents of Rome are also considered to have migrated from the PIE homeland.

That is correct. You summed it up perfectly.

Actually, even the Greeks are descendants of the PIE's, yet the raging moron above (AUC) believes them to be a Middle-Eastern people.

Hilarious. The Greeks of old probably looked quite a bit 'Baltic'.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

That is correct. You summed it up perfectly.

Actually, even the Greeks are descendants of the PIE's, yet the raging moron above (AUC) believes them to be a Middle-Eastern people.

Hilarious. The Greeks of old probably looked quite a bit 'Baltic'.

Yeah, the physical appearance of ancient Greeks isn't really disputed. They made lots of sculptures that inform us of their appearance, & their architecture was pretty cool too.

The Mycenaean people may have been among the early settlers of ancient Greece. Their script was eventually forgotten though, & a modified form of the Phoenician script was adopted.

The same can be said for the Romans too. There was a discussion on a similar topic a while back regarding the Etruscans (a non Indo-European people) & whether or not they were Semites.

Their language is an isolate obviously & I recall reading that ancient Greeks considered it to be different from other languages they were aware of.

The Etruscans most likely migrated before the PIE migrations as farming spread from the Middle East & Anatolia.

In the end though, it was Roman culture & people that dominated Italia, & in general I think the PIE people dominated culturally, politically, & linguistically in most of the regions they settled in.

 

[American_Millenium]

Yeah, the physical appearance of ancient Greeks isn't really disputed. They made lots of sculptures that inform us of their appearance, & their architecture was pretty cool too.

The Mycenaean people may have been among the early settlers of ancient Greece. Their script was eventually forgotten though, & a modified form of the Phoenician script was adopted.

The same can be said for the Romans too. There was a discussion on a similar topic a while back regarding the Etruscans (a non Indo-European people) & whether or not they were Semites.

Their language is an isolate obviously & I recall reading that ancient Greeks considered it to be different from other languages they were aware of.

The Etruscans most likely migrated before the PIE migrations as farming spread from the Middle East & Anatolia.

In the end though, it was Roman culture & people that dominated Italia, & in general I think the PIE people dominated culturally, politically, & linguistically in most of the regions they settled in.

Well during the Neolithic migrations, the modern-day European populations' ancestors migrated to Europe. Even the PIE people initially migrated during the Neolithic migrations; they could have just split up with the ancestors of the Etruscans staying put and the ancestors of the PIE people moving into Eastern Europe.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

Well during the Neolithic migrations, the modern-day European populations' ancestors migrated to Europe. Even the PIE people initially migrated during the Neolithic migrations; they could have just split up with the ancestors of the Etruscans staying put and the ancestors of the PIE people moving into Eastern Europe.

Well the previous discussion was meant to understand the presence of the Y-chromosome haplogroup J in the Italian Peninsula. Apart from the Etruscan people, I am not aware of any other non-Indo-European people settling in Italia. With the arrival of the Latins & other Indo-European tribes, their position weakened. Besides, the Etruscans themselves had adopted elements from Greek culture, particularly architecture.

They did have some influence over the early Romans, but it suffices to say that the Romans, like the Greeks & Indo-Iranians were an Indo-European people. Even among the Indo-Iranians, the Indo-Aryans were influenced by the Harappan people, whereas the Iranic tribes came in to contact with the Elamites.