Why Waziristan cannot be conquered

[Javed3]

I guess this sad story of violence will come to an end once the US strikes an amicable deal with the Afghan Taliban.

Such deal is the only feasible exit strategy for the US to declare victory, and move on with life.

Once the source of the little money that we get to justify our existence as “Allies in the war on terror” dries up, sanity will finally prevail.

 

[Developereo]

Please demonstrate some moral courage by condemning State terrorism that was unleashed on people of Afghanistan, Iraq purportedly to avenge 9/11. Hundreds of thousands of civilians died although none of the 19 hijackers was either Afghan or Iraqi.

We all agree that civilian deaths in Afghanistan, Iraq and from the drone attacks in Pakistan are wrong.

The current cycle of violence in Pakistan was carefully orchestrated by Gen Musharraf and his benefactors; through senseless mindless operations in FATA and Swat since 2004.

I totally oppose the concept of autonomous regions. Pakistan is one country. We should not have any autonomous regions with their own tribal laws.

It entered a vicious phase after the Conquest of Lal Masjid in which a number of girl students were burnt alive.

Mounting casualties and a torrent of blood has created its own momentum; from which neither Pak Army nor the Taliban can afford a retreat.

Civilian casualties are bad whenever they occur. If the army killed unarmed girl students then it was a crime that should be investigated and the people punished.

Finally Pak Army has taken ownership of the US war in Afghanistan; which in their parlance is AFPAK zone. A semblance of “victory” in either Pakistan or Afghanistan will create positive vibes with the US public, that somehow the war on Terror has been won!.

I don't care about Afghanistan, but anyone (TTP) who kills Pakistani civilians in suicide blasts must be punished. I agree that, along with the military offensive, we should also be using diplomacy and education to defeat TTP's agenda and bring these tribals to our side.

I guess this sad story of violence will come to an end once the US strikes an amicable deal with the Afghan Taliban.

Whatever the US does with Taliban is not our concern. As long as anyone kills our citizens, we will hunt them down and kill them.

 

[FireFighter]

We all agree that civilian deaths in Afghanistan, Iraq and from the drone attacks in Pakistan are wrong.

So what do you propose as the right course of action should Pakistan take in that regard?

I totally oppose the concept of autonomous regions. Pakistan is one country. We should not have any autonomous regions with their own tribal laws.

Really, aren't we going against the principles of our very own Quaid

Lets suppose if we agree with your argument, and Pakistan would take over those regions and would have to install its own version of outdated and dysfunctional public institutions such as the judiciary, healthcare, policing, schooling etc. and do you think they would improve the lives of the tribals?

Civilian casualties are bad whenever they occur. If the army killed unarmed girl students then it was a crime that should be investigated and the people punished.

And who do you suggest would investigate those cases? The Zardari govn't?

I don't care about Afghanistan, but anyone (TTP) who kills Pakistani civilians in suicide blasts must be punished. I agree that, along with the military offensive, we should also be using diplomacy and education to defeat TTP's agenda and bring these tribals to our side.

How exactly could one ignore their neighbours? So long as there's a war in your neighbourhood it is bound to create problems in your house, with influx of criminals/drug dealers/mafia/mercinaries/etc coming in swathing numbers as refugees to flee the war.

Whatever the US does with Taliban is not our concern. As long as anyone kills our citizens, we will hunt them down and kill them.

Anyone that hunts or kills your innocent neighbors should also be a concern to you. Because those hunters/killers could target you next after softening your neighbours (God forbids)

 

[FireFighter]

First of all, we are not conquering anything. We are liberating our lands from, literally, a foreign invasion.

Agreed.

Suicide bombers are criminals. It doesn't matter if they are Muslim, Christian, Hindu, or Martians. They must be punished.

Pretty much all social scientists agree that the concept of suicide is a byproduct of a social breakdown in society. even if they're inspired by religious zealots they're still motivated by social/moral factors leading to breakdowns in their society.


How exactly do you propose we punish the suicide bombers? Like after they blow themselves up? Or would you rather go to the roots of the problem and try to eliminate it from there?

I disagree with this part. If our law enforcement and judicial systems are ineffective, the solution is not to give up and allow every Tom, Dick and Harry tribe to impose their own set of laws. What's next? MQM decides to impose their own laws in Karachi because of all the crime?

Firstly, Karachi is an integral part of Pakistan and has always been since its inception, however not the Waziristans. It's none but your own Quad that seeked their assistance in forming Pakistan and accepted their autonomy. Therefore that renders your example of Karachi being dictated by the whims of MQM as invalid.

Secondly, unless and until you dont have fully functioning institution, i doubt you can sell it to others, and doubt that anyone would want to be a part of your 'system'. Many Kashmiris cite this as one of their primary reasons for seeking independence from Pakistan as well.

We need to improve rule of law throughout the country. After 62 years, it's about bl__dy time.

Absolutely agreed there, but only a legit govn't would be able to pursue this goal.

The armed forces' motivation should be patriotism and love of Pakistan. They are here to protect Pakistan, not Islam.

Last time I checked its called "Islamic Republic of Pakistan" so any attempt to remove that would be a political suicide as Islam is an inseparable part of identity of the Pakistanis.

Secondly, no military in the world derives its motivation from patriotism alone, doctrines and ideologies are foundations on which militaries mechanisms work and form their policies and strategies accordingly.

Sad to say, but the entrenched feudal plutocracy will be the death of Pakistan. India did the right thing with land reforms soon after independence.

Totally agreed with you. That feudal plutocracy will lead to the moral and social degradation and keep us backwards forever.

Being loyal Pakistanis, it is imperative that we rid our society of anyone who kills our fellow citizens.

I agree to some extent. We need to kill all the foreign Uzbek, Tajik, Arab etc. fighters who are killing our people.
But we also need to make sure that poor children from our madrassas do not become brainwashed by these guys. And we need to make sure that our villagers do not welcome these guys even by mistake.

I agree the drone strikes cause problems, but we cannot blame the whole problem just on drone strikes. The AQ message has been there for a long time and we must fight the battle of ideas directly in the villages.

Agreed, though I think PA needs to take the tribals into confidence first, and then also empower them enough to fight alongside our soldiers.

We and the tribals need to be on the same page with one objective: dismantle and crush the TTP faggots.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

Talibans are more dangerous and lethal than any past uprising of pashtuns......this time they are ideologically motivated and have set a goal.....
Pakistan made a blunder of radicalizing them.....a traditional pashtun can be controlled and managed through various means....but a fanatic pashtun aka taliban is another story......
Pakistan is liberating tribals from talibans?is making it free from terrorists?. British also thought that they were right, they wanted to subdue these "noble savages" just to have peace in their north west border...but they were clever folk, they extensively studied them, their officers learnt pashto, dealt with them without interfering in their ways of life and traditions, never provoked them by disrespecting their religion, spin giri and women....used various tactics and stretagies to counter tribals and pashtuns of other areas.
On the other hand Pakistan army plunged into FATA without realization what could be the consequences......they are neither viewed as liberators neither angels....wearing khaki uniform with gun in your hand, you are intruder for them....you realized your foolly and tried to employ pashtun tribal militia against them, but they were already weakened by them...you kept on , you used heavy weaponry on them, like foriegners you are using air force on them, you kept increasing collateral damages, you kept increasing revenge seekers....you carry out a successful operation in one area, after some time talibans re-surfaces there again....
It has been 6 or 7 years and more than 8 thousands military and paramilitary men have died at the hands of talibans, it is not stopping and would go on for years with disastrous results, unlike past pakhtun resistance, taliban are not localized !

 

[ShahidT]

^ you know very well that TTP mercenary gangs have nothing to do with Afghan Taliban, yet you keep peddling this bullsh*t on other threads as well trying to equate the two. we'll see whose side the tribes end up on after next year, once these hired goons and their masters in Afghanistan are exposed, trampled and kicked out.

also you love provoking people, even if passively. just noticed your signature. you mean to say jatts were unwise or worse..? khattak saahb I don't want to say anything about because I have respect for him. but jatts have always been the first line of defense in the plains. rajputs and jatts were the people who gave strongest resistance to everyone from arabs, turk, mongols and afagns. they just had everything they wanted in this land of five rivers, so never chased the invaders back to their barren deserts/hills.

but you defend once, twice, thrice, whilst every time they pillage, loot and burn everything on the way back. then the umpteenth time they'll eventually get through, like sewerage water through a damaged wall. the one time a jatt had any expansionist intent because they were sick of being pillaged, they pushed back and took most of FATA, KPK. what is the legacy of that? british inherited it from them, carved the durand line between you 'unconquerables', which still lives on today. do you love receiving history lessons? or just to delude yourselves with a distorted past.

and 'foreigners' have ruled 'pakhtun' lands as long, if not longer, than us. the countless arab, turkic, mongolian hordes stayed centuries. not to mention the not-so-foreign persians, mauryans, gandharans, shahis, etc. of ancient times. back then where was your unconquerable spirit? hiding in caves as usual? please dont quote unproven letters by greek homosexuals to their mother.

 

[jatt+gutts]

^ you know very well that TTP mercenary gangs have nothing to do with Afghan Taliban, yet you keep peddling this bullsh*t on other threads as well trying to equate the two. we'll see whose side the tribes end up on after next year, once these hired goons and their masters in Afghanistan are exposed, trampled and kicked out.

also you love provoking people, even if passively. just noticed your signature. you mean to say jatts were unwise or worse..? khattak saahb I don't want to say anything about because I have respect for him. but jatts have always been the first line of defense in the plains. rajputs and jatts were the people who gave strongest resistance to everyone from arabs, turk, mongols and afagns. they just had everything they wanted in this land of five rivers, so never chased the invaders back to their barren deserts/hills.

but you defend once, twice, thrice, whilst every time they pillage, loot and burn everything on the way back. then the umpteenth time they'll eventually get through, like sewerage water through a damaged wall. the one time a jatt had any expansionist intent because they were sick of being pillaged, they pushed back and took most of FATA, KPK. what is the legacy of that? british inherited it from them, carved the durand line between you 'unconquerables', which still lives on today. do you love receiving history lessons? or just to delude yourselves with a distorted past.

and 'foreigners' have ruled 'pakhtun' lands as long, if not longer, than us. the countless arab, turkic, mongolian hordes stayed centuries. not to mention the not-so-foreign persians, mauryans, gandharans, shahis, etc. of ancient times. back then where was your unconquerable spirit? hiding in caves as usual? please dont quote unproven letters by greek homosexuals to their mother.

good reply..did not wanted to get in the pakistans debate.. no pashtoon ever ruled jatts.. never...only pashtoon kings were sher shah suri and ahmed shah aabdali n they never ruled over jatts..but hey these people even to this day are ruled by americans, beofer them it was pakistanis who had their ways with them and before them russians. sikhs made them wear womens clothes. .and alexander wrote the letter to mother not because of pasttoons but when he met punjabis.. king porus...these ***** farts make up their own version of history..you pakistanis need to go hard at them and dont think of them islamic brotherhood for a month or so..these same people when in western nation dont even wear their national attire cause people wil beat them up.

 

[django]

good reply..did not wanted to get in the pakistans debate.. no pashtoon ever ruled jatts.. never...only pashtoon kings were sher shah suri and ahmed shah aabdali n they never ruled over jatts..but hey these people even to this day are ruled by americans, beofer them it was pakistanis who had their ways with them and before them russians. sikhs made them wear womens clothes. .and alexander wrote the letter to mother not because of pasttoons but when he met punjabis.. king porus...these ***** farts make up their own version of history..you pakistanis need to go hard at them and dont think of them islamic brotherhood for a month or so..these same people when in western nation dont even wear their national attire cause people wil beat them up.

Jatt Guts I think you are being disinggenous with the truth, Pakhtuns did conquer the punjab. Lodhi ,Suri and abdali were all conquerors, the lattar destroyed the holy sikh temple.You are right there was resistance from primarly the jats against abdalis forces throughout his forays into punjab, which ultimately gave rise to ranjit singhs empire, which went as far as Jamrud which is adjacent to the khyber pass.

 

[pak-marine]

Talibans are more dangerous and lethal than any past uprising of pashtuns......this time they are ideologically motivated and have set a goal.....
Pakistan made a blunder of radicalizing them.....a traditional pashtun can be controlled and managed through various means....but a fanatic pashtun aka taliban is another story......
Pakistan is liberating tribals from talibans?is making it free from terrorists?. British also thought that they were right, they wanted to subdue these "noble savages" just to have peace in their north west border...but they were clever folk, they extensively studied them, their officers learnt pashto, dealt with them without interfering in their ways of life and traditions, never provoked them by disrespecting their religion, spin giri and women....used various tactics and stretagies to counter tribals and pashtuns of other areas.
On the other hand Pakistan army plunged into FATA without realization what could be the consequences......they are neither viewed as liberators neither angels....wearing khaki uniform with gun in your hand, you are intruder for them....you realized your foolly and tried to employ pashtun tribal militia against them, but they were already weakened by them...you kept on , you used heavy weaponry on them, like foriegners you are using air force on them, you kept increasing collateral damages, you kept increasing revenge seekers....you carry out a successful operation in one area, after some time talibans re-surfaces there again....
It has been 6 or 7 years and more than 8 thousands military and paramilitary men have died at the hands of talibans, it is not stopping and would go on for years with disastrous results, unlike past pakhtun resistance, taliban are not localized !

gone are those days of conquering etc .. a nuclear pay load will vanish them and their genes from this planet

 

[jatt+gutts]

Jatt Guts I think you are being disinggenous with the truth, Pakhtuns did conquer the punjab. Lodhi ,Suri and abdali were all conquerors, the lattar destroyed the holy sikh temple.You are right there was resistance from primarly the jats against abdalis forces throughout his forays into punjab, which ultimately gave rise to ranjit singhs empire, which went as far as Jamrud which is adjacent to the khyber pass.

ahmed shah did not ruled us.. he tried hard and killed lot of innocents and distroyed sikh temple but within a year his empire fell in punjab and was taken over by sikhs. not only punjab but kashmir as well. regarding lodhi and suri empire they were short lived and there were no sikh jatts in punjab that time.

regarding ranjit singhs empire all of todays pakistans north west provinces were part of his empire and he did ruled over them with no mercy at first but later on became benovalent.

Yusufzais, the most numerous of the Peshawar tribes. Muhammadzai inhabited the area north east of Peshawar. The Gigians had their settlements south of Muhammadzai areas and they were in open rebellion as their lands had been given to Barkzai chiefs under the Sikh government. Afridis ruled supreme in the Khaibar area. Besides these, there were other tribes like Khalils, Mohammadans etc. These tribesmen looked to their own Malik or Khan or council of elders � Jirga � for guidance in matters of common interest and not to the ruling authority at Peshawar. As such they were ever ready to take up arms when called upon by their chief/chiefs against the infidel Sikhs. Hari Singh Nalwa knew how to match the Sikh hatred of Afghans. He set up a very strong administration in the Peshawar valley. He levied a cess of Rs 4 per house on the Yusafzais. This cess was to be collected in cash or in kind. For its realisation, personal household property could be appropriated. There was scarcely a village which was not burnt.

 

[Sugarcane]

good reply..did not wanted to get in the pakistans debate.. no pashtoon ever ruled jatts.. never...only pashtoon kings were sher shah suri and ahmed shah aabdali n they never ruled over jatts..but hey these people even to this day are ruled by americans, beofer them it was pakistanis who had their ways with them and before them russians. sikhs made them wear womens clothes. .and alexander wrote the letter to mother not because of pasttoons but when he met punjabis.. king porus...these ***** farts make up their own version of history..you pakistanis need to go hard at them and dont think of them islamic brotherhood for a month or so..these same people when in western nation dont even wear their national attire cause people wil beat them up.

He is Afghan refuge who always try to start ethnic war - sometime he says that Pakistani talibans are dominated by Punjabis and sometime he says that they are unconquerable pashtuns

 

[Secur]

we do have tactical nukes with sub-kiloton yields

To deter the enemy from crossing the border , not to use them on our own people or territories for a few thousand terrorist who will be laid to rest in hell sooner or later .

 

[jatt+gutts]

He is Afghan refuge who always try to start ethnic war - sometime he says that Pakistani talibans are dominated by Punjabis and sometime he says that they are unconquerable pashtuns

if only you pakistani punjabis wouldnt have converted to a foreign religion....things would been lot differnt. now you see religion doest bind people. it is blood and ethnicity which is more important than religion. you will learn hard way

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

gone are those days of conquering etc .. a nuclear pay load will vanish them and their genes from this planet

And who would use the nukes against them?

 

[afghanis_hehe]

He is Afghan refuge who always try to start ethnic war - sometime he says that Pakistani talibans are dominated by Punjabis and sometime he says that they are unconquerable pashtuns

true ...he is an afghani ..need to be ignored because of this dipshhhiit alot of times i had to fight with my own countrymen on this forum..i