Why Türkiye should rethink its relations with India

[shah_123]

Jinnah was out and out secular. There is no doubt about it.

I am not interested in out and out -- I need his statements.

 

[MayaBazar]

I am not interested in out and out -- I need his statements.

Let discuss on this thread.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/was-jinnah-secular-or-not.667930/

 

[Saddam Hussein]

Secularist cucks everywhere!

Soon to be found in Sharia court

 

[Rusty]

Jinnah even didn't had any intentions to half secularize and you claiming full secularization --- this only exists in the heads of tiny little small secular/liberal Pakistanis.

You can't even post even just one statement of Jinnah where he said that he wanted a secular Pakistan.

Listed to his speech after pakistan was created.
That is the only evidence you need.

 

[TheGreatMaratha]

If it wasn't for backstabbing marathas then Tipu Sultan may have beaten the English back. You need to stop worshipping Hindus alone as the only ones who wanted to keep the clans united. Compared to Tipu who gave his life on the front line resisting the colonialists, I'm not even sure if Gandhi comes remotely close.

Ok, at that time the Maratha state and the state of Mysore didn't exactly have cordial relations. You are looking at history from 200 years in advance. This means you know what happened in the future post the Mysore British wars and the Maratha British wars. The Marathas never imagined that the British would rule the entire India in just a few years. You know what happened, but people in that era didn't. In hindsight, we can say that yes, the Marathas and in fact all the kingdoms in India should've fought in a united manner against the British. Then they could resume whatever quarrels they have among themselves.

And it's not like the Marathas didn't fight with the British. The Marathas and British fought 3 wars in total.

By your logic, all the Indians in the British Army(significant proportion being the Punjabis) are traitors and should not be celebrated. They indeed are in a sense but you'll see these people in the Army were serving the Indian and Pakistani army post independence.

Also, in the Battle of Talikota that @MayaBazar referenced in which the Sultanates joined together against the Vijaynagar Empire, unfortunately the Marathas sided with the Sultans. (many Maratha soldiers in the Sultanate armies). I hope you call them backstabbers there as well as the local Sultanates were foreigners fighting against indigenous local kingdoms.

And if you go further back, I hope you call your Punjabi kin as backstabbers who couldn't put up decent resistance against the invaders. In fact, there's nothing much to show for from the indigenous people of your region.

 

[shah_123]

Listed to his speech after pakistan was created.
That is the only evidence you need.

So should I listen to what unknown xyz says .. (post his speeches of secular Pakistan)

 

[MayaBazar]

So should I listen to what unknown xyz says .. (post his speeches of secular Pakistan)

It's here on the below thread. Please do not detail this thread.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/was-jinnah-secular-or-not.667930/page-2#post-12358696

 

[Rusty]

So should I listen to what unknown xyz says .. (post his speeches of secular Pakistan)

Xyz?
Jinnah is now xyz?
It's Eid so I don't want to get to worked up but you really should re-read what I wrote

And since you are so keen to embrace yourself
Here is some xyz telling his nation that it is secular.

 

[xyxmt]

Erdoğan Will not live for ever

Modi will not live forever either but once a nation is put on a constructive or destructive path it become very hard to divert from that path and it takes decades even if someone tries.

 

[ÇölKaplanı]

 

[MayaBazar]

You are in the wrong theater. Bring your pop corn here.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/was-jinnah-secular-or-not.667930/

 

[ÇölKaplanı]

You are in the wrong theater. Bring your pop corn here.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/was-jinnah-secular-or-not.667930/

Oh thanks

 

[Naofumi]

No, he wasn't. He was pan Islamist at the beginning. Towards the end he believed in nationalism but not extreme nationalism, he believed that there should be a balance; love for one's nation, but also a sense of unity for when time calls it. He was though not agreed on secularism, he had a different idea on that.

I also checked the text I quoted, it is actually one of his late pieces, that is after the establishment of the Republic and westernization policies. you quoted just some hardcore Islamist website.

He was a Pan-Islamist till his last breath, the closest "nationalism" we can find in his works is this

So, not really nationalistic, in fact rejects nationalism and call for Islamic unity but Nations must focus on themselves temporarily and an eternal unity afterwards.

And you're correct, he was not a secularist in any sense, he defends old laws and criticise some of the laws like the equality between men and women in inheritance and related matters for instance.

Furthermore, the nature of the website is irrelevant as the quotes are not falsified and independently verifiable.

What kind of nonsensical claim is this? Every mughal and Muslim-led city state opponent of Britain asked Hindus and Muslims to join together and expel the British. If it wasn't for backstabbing marathas then Tipu Sultan may have beaten the English back. You need to stop worshipping Hindus alone as the only ones who wanted to keep the clans united. Compared to Tipu who gave his life on the front line resisting the colonialists, I'm not even sure if Gandhi comes remotely close.

You're forgetting that "Muslim" Nizam was more stable and permanent ally of the British than the Marathas, he supplied at least 16,000 numbered force to the British in the siege of Seringapatam (1799).
@Nilgiri @Joe Shearer

 

[Nilgiri]

He was a Pan-Islamist till his last breath, the closest "nationalism" we can find in his works is this
View attachment 635136
So, not really nationalistic, in fact rejects nationalism and call for Islamic unity but Nations must focus on themselves temporarily and an eternal unity afterwards.

And you're correct, he was not a secularist in any sense, he defends old laws and criticise some of the laws like the equality between men and women in inheritance and related matters for instance.
View attachment 635137
Furthermore, the nature of the website is irrelevant as the quotes are not falsified and independently verifiable.
View attachment 635138
View attachment 635139
View attachment 635140


You're forgetting that "Muslim" Nizam was more stable and permanent ally of the British than the Marathas, he supplied at least 16,000 numbered force to the British in the siege of Seringapatam (1799).
@Nilgiri @Joe Shearer

A subject that hits me in the heart always, it pains me to dwell on it.

Regretfully I cannot answer much more than this.

I remember him at his finest (for me):

Saare Jahan se accha, Hindustan hamara....

...and I have amnesia after it.

 

[Naofumi]

A subject that hits me in the heart always, it pains me to dwell on it.

Regretfully I cannot answer much more than this.

I remember him at his finest (for me):

Saare Jahan se accha, Hindustan hamara....

...and I have amnesia after it.

Yup, the Qaumi Tarana, it was followed by Tarana e Milli, as a side note someone commented in a conversation that if Iqbal's grandfather had not converted he may have become a great Hindutva poet too .

And do you know the breakdown of the British-Nizam-Maratha forces at Seringapatam?