Why religion and politics don't go together.

[Indus Pakistan]

brain dead salafist.

That he is. I get a feeling he has been infected by the Islam peddled in UK ghetto's.

Who

May I ask you are you resident in UK, now or in the past?

 

[Azadkashmir]

i think first we need to exterminate all corrupters. pay off imf loans. maybe then we have peace.

 

[litman]

IF we call ourselves muslims then we cant separate religion from state. the islam of Quran and Sunnah but who is going to implement that? hmmm... i think wait for imam mehdi and Hazrat Esa AS.as a nation we have gone so much astray that our chances of coming back on right path are almost none. the only thing an individual can do is to stick to Quran and Sunnah himself and give message to those who are closely related to him. just message and no force. we need to study oneself Quran and hadiths in order to take back our religion from the clutches of mullah. at this time and age such people may need to slightly cut them off from the "fitnas" of today's world. i am not saying hide in a cave but just try to keep yourself on track away from all these fitnas.

 

[Mutakalim]

For all members who are not brain dead. The issue is not the Quran. There is only one Quran. But after the short 30 year rule of the Rashidun caliphate which itself ended in a bloodbath the world of Islam has been riven by discord over the last 1,300 years. There is one Quran but a million interpreations that clash, collide and people die everyday over.

You are saying that religion and politics dont go together. However, Quran is stating the religious duties of a ruler. We dont need any interpretation when verdict is straight forward and clear. Come to the point. State your arguments against the Quran, as Quran is rejecting your claim, not me.

 

[Azadkashmir]

take out the modern digital banking system then mullah diesel-likes will find it harder to steal and transfer money. I rather stick to gold and silver coins much harder to transfer abroad. I think this will reduce corruption and chaos. plus outsiders can't transfer money or use the paper printed dollar to buy out mullah diesel types.

 

[litman]

the evil forces are so strong today that those on righteous path have no option but to hide like ashab e kahaf. that evil is everywhere. in our parliament , in our streets, in our homes, in our mosques, madrassahs and schools, in our hearts.

 

[Mutakalim]

Why do you always derail these threads brain dead salafist.

Because these idiotic threads are not serving any purpose. It is the propaganda of anti Pakistan elements which you people are spreading. By the way, I am not a Salafi.

The issue is not Islam, it is corrupted men politicizing it for their gain.

The title of thread states otherwise.

The topic is keeping religion and politics seperate, not doing away with religion so present your thoughts without being a jahil.

Quran has not kept religion and politics separate. Furthermore, constitution of Islamic republic of Pakistan is also not keeping them separate. So what's the point?

 

[litman]

Not nice. Would it help if I called you a "drug addled retarded soul"?

Yes?

I was aleep earlier but I am awake now, thanks.

I agree. My advice to you. don't please reject it.


For all members who are not brain dead. The issue is not the Quran. There is only one Quran. But after the short 30 year rule of the Rashidun caliphate which itself ended in a bloodbath the world of Islam has been riven by discord over the last 1,300 years. There is one Quran but a million interpreations that clash, collide and people die everyday over.

if we forget what we have been taught though out our lives by our parents, by our teachers and our so called religious mullahs , set our brain to neutral and open Quran with "kholoos" all of our differences will be gone but the mullah wants these differences so that he can continue with his ownership of religion .

 

[Mutakalim]

May I ask you are you resident in UK, now or in the past?

Come to the topic. Present your argument against the Quran, if you have any.

 

[Yankee-stani]

Some emotional mod(s) and members make it very hard to talk objectively and rationally in the PDF; either declared ''kuffar'' or banned in the end.

Thanks and sorry.

I understand I may have differences with you on certain things but your posts and views are interesting nevertheless

 

[313ghazi]

Islam. Islam mine. Islam yours. Real Islam. True Islam. And it goes on. While there maybe one Islam but the human ability to interpret things in million ways means often my take on Islam won't be same as the next guy. Indeed two people could end up up fighting and killing each other because they are so sure Allah is on their side. Whose actual side Allah is is never found out and something only to be seen in hereafter and since once you go over no one has yet come back to tell us "hey I was right Allah was on my side". Instead the two sides will keep praying on the graves of their dead and claim they died fighting for "the Islam". The only way out of this madness is everybody pulls back and instead focus on their own perspective of Islam and use that to better themselves as they will face account for their own actions. For instance when I leave the world non of you guys will be able to remedy or help the accountability I face. I will face it for my actions. NOT OTHERS.


What I am saying is we need to remove Islam from the dirty, grubby world of politics. Because when religion fuses with politics it only creates more schism and chaos. All it manages to do is turn Islam into a slogan. A cheap tool to be used for gread and power.

A great example of this can be seen by the Azadi March of JUI-F by Maulana Diesel. This is a man who claims to represent Islam and has considerable support in some parts of the country. Yet is he face of Islam? That can't be it. I know it is reasy to dismiss him but we can't ignore that he has plenty of support and will claim as vocally as any others that he is the carrier of the banner of Islam. You can say no but this only goes back to my opening paragraph.

Thoughts people?

You're right. Democracy and political Islam don't work. Democracy elects the most popular person for the job, not the best person for the job. From what I've read the best person for the job is someone who is pious, knowledgable but also politically and militarily powerful. Of course the political and military power can come from having strong allies, ultimately it's been a requirement that the Caliph controlled the strongest army, or his allies gave him control of their military. The concensus of other Muslim communities and leaders was also required for someone to be Caliph. Some understandings also suggest the Caliph has to be from the tribe of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

In Islamic political systems the role of Caliph has always been supposedly for the best man for the job; although history tells us some Caliphs were mere puppets of Sultans. The political models of governance have also changed over time, The Ottomans didn't have the same political structure as the Abbasids.

Islam provides us social structure, there are some things that are obligatory upon a Muslim society, we have laws that ought to be enforced (Shariah), but the model in which we do so is pretty fluid. It does ultimately require a single authority figure though, it requires institutions under that persons control, empowered by their status as tools of the state under the figurehead (Caliph). Everything else is subjective.

I do know democracy is not the way to attain that figure head. Political concensus has a role to play, as ultimately people have to pledge loyalty to the figurehead (be it a caliph or a local governor or whatever) - but the way modern parliamentart politics works, it doesn't enable that.

There is a hadith that a leader is the reflection of his people. Our leaders are a reflection of us. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh didn't establish the state of Madinah immediately, he spent years preaching Islam privately and publically, correcting his peoples state before established a state.

We must correct ourselves, correct those around us, only then will we be able to think of having leaders we can trust to implement the islamic aspects of society. I don't trust Diesel, I don't trust Rizvi, I don't trust Qadri, I'm not sure I trust Imran Khan enough tbh.

Right now our awam is generally uneducated, easily manipulated, used to crooked ways, embedded into them actually. The leaders that will emerge from this are the same.

 

[SingHee]

Politics = ruling
Religion = believing

They are not the same.

As long as there is no ban on religion, and all are allowed to practice their faith in accordance with their beliefs, there cannot be any contradiction with religion. The contradiction, however, as with any other political system, arises when two sides have beliefs that contradict each other.

That is a purely political problem, and not a religious one; which cannot go outside its own domain.

 

[Bil]

People fight for religion, people die for religion, people kill in the name of religion but people dont follow religion. This is the bitter reality of Pakistan's backward society.

Nobody has used "Islam" card in Pakistan more than this shameless Fazlu Fraudiye, and yet people supports him, which explains the level of intellect of his blind supporters.

Pakistani Muslims are utter inept, who are unable to see the intention of people like Fazlu Fraudiye, who exploit and use them in the name of Islam.

And on other hand, we have filth's like Nawaz, Zardari, Maryam and Billo rani, who play "Jamhooriyat" card. Similarly, that son of a gun, hippopotamus, Altaf zaleel used "Mujahir" card and continue to fool karachiites for years. At times I get this impression that Pakistani's love and respect their ethnicity more than their nationality, which is Pakistan - its a shame !

So in a nutshell, these politician use people for their own advantage and than ditch them once they accomplish what they want, but still fools follow and support them. STORY OF PAKISTANI POLITICS.

 

[HannibalBarca]

You're right. Democracy and political Islam don't work. Democracy elects the most popular person for the job, not the best person for the job. From what I've read the best person for the job is someone who is pious, knowledgable but also politically and militarily powerful. Of course the political and military power can come from having strong allies, ultimately it's been a requirement that the Caliph controlled the strongest army, or his allies gave him control of their military. The concensus of other Muslim communities and leaders was also required for someone to be Caliph. Some understandings also suggest the Caliph has to be from the tribe of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

In Islamic political systems the role of Caliph has always been supposedly for the best man for the job; although history tells us some Caliphs were mere puppets of Sultans. The political models of governance have also changed over time, The Ottomans didn't have the same political structure as the Abbasids.

Islam provides us social structure, there are some things that are obligatory upon a Muslim society, we have laws that ought to be enforced (Shariah), but the model in which we do so is pretty fluid. It does ultimately require a single authority figure though, it requires institutions under that persons control, empowered by their status as tools of the state under the figurehead (Caliph). Everything else is subjective.

I do know democracy is not the way to attain that figure head. Political concensus has a role to play, as ultimately people have to pledge loyalty to the figurehead (be it a caliph or a local governor or whatever) - but the way modern parliamentart politics works, it doesn't enable that.

There is a hadith that a leader is the reflection of his people. Our leaders are a reflection of us. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh didn't establish the state of Madinah immediately, he spent years preaching Islam privately and publically, correcting his peoples state before established a state.

We must correct ourselves, correct those around us, only then will we be able to think of having leaders we can trust to implement the islamic aspects of society. I don't trust Diesel, I don't trust Rizvi, I don't trust Qadri, I'm not sure I trust Imran Khan enough tbh.

Right now our awam is generally uneducated, easily manipulated, used to crooked ways, embedded into them actually. The leaders that will emerge from this are the same.

Was gonna get into it... but seems you warped it all quite well.
But gonna add, that Today form of what many call "Political Islam" is not a Caliph based one (not in the minds of the politician at least)... it's a facade used by "Simple Politicians" to gather support from a Muslim majority pop... All of them Play by the same rule and with the same conditions that the Ultra secular or the Ultra communist in the political maiden...

In a very simplified manner... "Political Islam" is the equivalent of What the Conservative party is for a country...

So, as for the OP thread... There is not Q needed... since Political Islam as we know it... is the Child/creation of Modern Democracy... They will have been none of it... without Democracy...

 

[Yankee-stani]

Was gonna get into it... but seems to warped it all quite well.
But gonna add, that Today form of what many call "Political Islam" is not a Caliph based one... it's a facade used by "Simple Politicians" to gather support from a Muslim majority pop... All of them Play by the same rule and with the same conditions that the Ultra secular or the Ultra communist in the political maiden...

In a very simplified manner... "Political Islam" is the equivalent of What the Conservative party is for a country...

I have long advocated this actually the problem is the masses in most Muslim countries are given high doses of populist fevor mainly by the so called Islamists to legitmatize their rule same goes with the ultra secular average people always are confused tbh