Why religion and politics don't go together.

[Indus Pakistan]

I have long advocated this actually the problem is the masses in most Muslim countries are given high doses of populist fevor mainly by the so called Islamists to legitmatize their rule same goes with the ultra secular average people always are confused tbh

The choice is between -

• secular bastards
• bastards using Islam

I would go any day with regular bastard at least he does not fcuk you and then play pious. Then point to Allah as cover for his greed.

i think first we need to exterminate all corrupters. pay off imf loans. maybe then we have peace.

How is things in your IMF, Jew ran, capitalist abused ghetto?

 

[313ghazi]

The choice is between -

• secular bastards
• bastards using Islam

I would go any day with regular bastard at least he does not fcuk you and then play pious. Then point to Allah as cover for his greed.

I'd go with the more effective bastard. Usually that's the secular one.

 

[nang2]

Religions concern after life. Politics concern this life. Hell breaks loose when religions concern this life or politics concern after life.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

I'd go with the more effective bastard. Usually that's the secular one.

I think it's important to understand something that is plainly obvious to people like you and me. We live in secular west. Along with other millions of Muslims. Question here is are we any less Muslim then those living in so called Islamic republics or Muslim countries?

I think we are as good Muslims. Therefore our very existence is proof that secularism is not inimicable to Islam.

 

[Yankee-stani]

All this talk of cheap fried chicken 'n

Cottage Chicken in the states we Have Kennedy Fried Chicken but I prefer Texas Chicken closests to Popeyes and KFC

Typical racist comment targetted at migrants. Everyone knows full well people left for economic opportunity. Perhaps it reflects that you can't argue the mans point so you're trying to deflect and troll.

Economic migration is the worst thing to occur to our countries sucks the best and brightest from our homelands and exploits cheap labor then taking 2nd gen who are just confused

We are talking Islamic republic of Pakistan, which is definitely not secular.

Pakistan is just a "Islamic Republic" in name how many old school Anglo Saxon laws from the 1800s are in the books eh mixed in with populists flair of the 70s era

 

[313ghazi]

A discourse of this nature is not allowed in any Muslim majority country. As a whole, our political structures (be it secular or otherwise) are compromised by outside powers and interests to varying degrees. So, be it secular or an Islamic entity, the world's top powers will do their level best to prevent another competitor to rise.

In other words, any political discourse we have, it must reflect this reality as well, and any solution we propose, it must demand true unequivocal sovereignty for our countries. That's the only way we Muslims will be able to truly decide on our political, ideological, etc, etc framework, whatever that framework might be.

Otherwise, we'll see the status quo entities exploit popular sentiments (in any direction) to their benefit, and the cycle will continue. Today, folks will be suspicious of Islam, and then 50 years from now, we'll hate seculars, and back and forth we go without actually solving problems.

After WW2, China broke free of said shackles, and then it internally decided which course to take. We could have very well ended up with the ROC as our neighbour instead of the PRC, but in either scenario, it likely would have been an independent power.

@313ghazi @Indus Pakistan

Good point. Step 1 of this is education, not just literacy but the ability to think independently and critically. Just look at this thread, turned into a shitshow, funnily enough OP is participating in the trolling in his own, very good thread.

We will never have intelligent political discourse with people who aren't intelligent, or aren't skilled to gain knowledge. I'm not an expert on politics, but if you told me something I didn't know about, if I wanted to disagree with you or question you - I'd research your POV first. So many of us won't take that step, instead we get offensive.

The country has to have a large bulk of people who can recognise problems and have the capacity to intellectually consider the proposed solutions. Sometimes you read the political discourse in the mainstream Pakistani media and it's disheartening. Partisan, cliched, old.

 

[El Sidd]

Politics is deeply personal.

Religion however is social in nature.

The religion of secularism is struggling to find a place in post modern world. Hence the desperation.

 

[Yankee-stani]

The choice is between -

• secular bastards
• bastards using Islam

I would go any day with regular bastard at least he does not fcuk you and then play pious. Then point to Allah as cover for his greed.

How is things in your IMF, Jew ran, capitalist abused ghetto?

We have choice of just focusing on our own without going to the extremes of both viewpoints Secularism and so called Islamism will not work in Pakistan what Pakistan needs is a cohesive identity better understanding of itself history and cut off Indophilla crap

 

[H. Dawary]

People all around the glob praise the west, but ignore their moral depravity, Homosexuality on the rise, LGBTQ, public drunkenness, mothers having slept with multiple men before having children, 50%+ divorce rate, cutting ties between families and friends (senior homes), I could write 5 pages on this, but you get the idea.

Ask yourself whether or not this is what all progressive countries have in common? Look at LA, the height of progressiveness, it's heaven for those who are rich, but hell for those who are poor.

I've noticed this trend between all developing countries, whenever they reach a height of progressiveness, there is without a doubt moral depravity that follows. Progressiveness is not a one way deal, there are certain sacrifices that you'd have to make for it and they are often moral sacrifices.

This is not to say that we shouldn't progress, rather, are we willing to give up our beliefs at the cost of it? You speak of the negativities of Muslim nations, but don't speak about the positivities of it, your nation Pakistan wouldn't be here if not for Islam, and the only thing holding it together is Islam.

 

[Yankee-stani]

Good point. Step 1 of this is education, not just literacy but the ability to think independently and critically. Just look at this thread, turned into a shitshow, funnily enough OP is participating in the trolling in his own, very good thread.

We will never have intelligent political discourse with people who aren't intelligent, or aren't skilled to gain knowledge. I'm not an expert on politics, but if you told me something I didn't know about, if I wanted to disagree with you or question you - I'd research your POV first. So many of us won't take that step, instead we get offensive.

The country has to have a large bulk of people who can recognise problems and have the capacity to intellectually consider the proposed solutions. Sometimes you read the political discourse in the mainstream Pakistani media and it's disheartening. Partisan, cliched, old.

I think you pin pointed the problems with differing views the problem is our "educated" class is just as divisive as the low class who rely on populist feelings we have to break elitism and pseudo liberals plus pseudo Islamists the low class follows

People all around the glob praise the west, but ignore their moral depravity, Homosexuality on the rise, LGBTQ, public drunkenness, mothers having slept with multiple men before having children, 50%+ divorce rate, cutting ties between families and friends (senior homes), I could write 5 pages on this, but you get the idea.

Ask yourself whether or not this is what all progressive countries have in common? Look at LA, the height of progressiveness, it's heaven for those who are rich, but hell for those who are poor.

I've noticed this trend between all developing countries, whenever they reach a height of progressiveness, there is without a doubt moral depravity that follows. Progressiveness is not a one way deal, there are certain sacrifices that you'd have to make for it and they are often moral sacrifices.

This is not to say that we shouldn't progress, rather, are we willing to give up our beliefs at the cost of it? You speak of the negativities of Muslim nations, but don't speak about the positivities of it, your nation Pakistan wouldn't be here if not for Islam, and the only thing holding it together is Islam.

I dont advocate for western style secularism but I prefer high octane dose of nationalism,militarism and rule of law to propel the country forward westvos stagnating in its crap as its social miros degenerate I agree on that in your points

 

[Mutakalim]

Pakistan is just a "Islamic Republic" in name how many old school Anglo Saxon laws from the 1800s are in the books eh mixed in with populists flair of the 70s era

I dont have a serious objection on your argument. Nonetheless, can you point out the Anglo Saxon laws which are contradicting Shariah or repugnant to Islamic principles.

If Pakistan is just a "Islamic Republic" in name then it doesnt mean we should adopt secularism by removing all Islamic injunctions from the constitution.

 

[313ghazi]

I think it's important to understand something that is plainly obvious to people like you and me. We live in secular west. Along with other millions of Muslims. Question here is are we any less Muslim then those living in so called Islamic republics or Muslim countries?

I think we are as good Muslims. Therefore our very existence is proof that secularism is not inimicable to Islam.

As long as there is freedom of religion in a society - you're correct. That is true of any type of society though, Islamic, communist, other religious dominated state. Too many Muslims look at the lack of an "Islamic" form of governance as the reason behind the failures of our societies, whereas the truth is, it's the lack of an effective form of governance that matters. The venn diagram between different models of governace often have huge overlap. The mechanisms to deliver the effective governance are different, but the services provided are nearly always the same or similar.

We should focus on an effective system of governance, first and foremost.

Economic migration is the worst thing to occur to our countries sucks the best and brightest from our homelands and exploits cheap labor then taking 2nd gen who are just confused

True to an extent. The US is a special case, most of you guys over there are from middle class background initially, educated people. A lot of the people in the UK, Europe, Middle East are originally from rural backgrounds, limited education, limited opportunities. For people like us it was a godsend.

Outside of the big cities of Pakistan today, it's still very hard to survive if you are not a landowner.

 

[Vortex]

Islam. Islam mine. Islam yours. Real Islam. True Islam. And it goes on. While there maybe one Islam but the human ability to interpret things in million ways means often my take on Islam won't be same as the next guy. Indeed two people could end up up fighting and killing each other because they are so sure Allah is on their side. Whose actual side Allah is is never found out and something only to be seen in hereafter and since once you go over no one has yet come back to tell us "hey I was right Allah was on my side". Instead the two sides will keep praying on the graves of their dead and claim they died fighting for "the Islam". The only way out of this madness is everybody pulls back and instead focus on their own perspective of Islam and use that to better themselves as they will face account for their own actions. For instance when I leave the world non of you guys will be able to remedy or help the accountability I face. I will face it for my actions. NOT OTHERS.


What I am saying is we need to remove Islam from the dirty, grubby world of politics. Because when religion fuses with politics it only creates more schism and chaos. All it manages to do is turn Islam into a slogan. A cheap tool to be used for gread and power.

A great example of this can be seen by the Azadi March of JUI-F by Maulana Diesel. This is a man who claims to represent Islam and has considerable support in some parts of the country. Yet is he face of Islam? That can't be it. I know it is reasy to dismiss him but we can't ignore that he has plenty of support and will claim as vocally as any others that he is the carrier of the banner of Islam. You can say no but this only goes back to my opening paragraph.

Thoughts people?

Calling my party Islami that or Islami this doesn’t make of me a true or good Muslim.
Unfortunately Islam became a business trademark for many many people.

 

[Yankee-stani]

As long as there is freedom of religion in a society - you're correct. That is true of any type of society though, Islamic, communist, other religious dominated state. Too many Muslims look at the lack of an "Islamic" form of governance as the reason behind the failures of our societies, whereas the truth is, it's the lack of an effective form of governance that matters. The venn diagram between different models of governace often have huge overlap. The mechanisms to deliver the effective governance are different, but the services provided are nearly always the same or similar.

We should focus on an effective system of governance, first and foremost.




True to an extent. The US is a special case, most of you guys over there are from middle class background initially, educated people. A lot of the people in the UK, Europe, Middle East are originally from rural backgrounds, limited education, limited opportunities. For people like us it was a godsend.

Outside of the big cities of Pakistan today, it's still very hard to survive if you are not a landowner.

I agree in principle yes the differing in class may have been more relevant let's say 15-20 years ago but I see a diverse array of social class of Pakistanis again the west did not flung door the open post WW2 to all of the world to come cause of "prosperity" and "human rights" it did to exploit cheap labor and to suck the best and brightest away also before the 1950s and 1960s labor unions were huge force in America espacilly the broke it up by unleashing waves of immigrants to use as cheap labor to fight against the Soviet economic and political threat

I dont have any objection on your argument. Nonetheless, can you point out the Anglo Saxon laws which are contradicting Shariah or repugnant to Islamic principles.

If Pakistan is just a "Islamic Republic" in name then it doesnt mean we should adopt secularism by removing all Islamic injunctions from the constitution.

I never advocated to adopt secularism I dont even think the Turkish model known as Kemalism would work despite in recent decades a small movement of people looking to the Turks as example Pakistan needs to focus on building it's own indigenous political ideologies rather than import or at least fusion it together

 

[Mutakalim]

I never advocated to adopt secularism I dont even think the Turkish model known as Kemalism would work despite in recent decades a small movement of people looking to the Turks as example Pakistan needs to focus on building it's own indigenous political ideologies rather than import or at least fusion it together

Fine for me.