Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

[kaykay]

I understand what u mean.
As earlier pointed out the best was to just get pakfa...................it was more than enough.

But as i said air force got greedy



I am talking on the monetary side of things.

Can we keep ordering 5 different planes at the same time??
I mean can we really afford it?

Amca is just a stupid idea in my opinion,,,,first get mk1 and 2 flying and then think of anything else

I see. well till pakfa comes, mkis production will be ended and full fledged amca funding will be started only around LCAs last year's of manufacturing ie 2024-25. and last but not the last we are gonna spend around 100 billion dollars on our defence modernisation for a reason.

 

[Makaramarma]

Do u know that russia first offerd the pakfa to china for joint development,,,,china rejected it and developed the j-20.
After that russians came to us.

What u are suggesting is impossible to happen,,ur intentions may be good but its not gonna happen

You misunderstand.......... China does not rely on Russian arms anymore.

PAK FA is going to be WILDLY EXPENSIVE. It won't be the Russia friendship price any-more. Worse, PAK FA will be sold to any other nation that wants it.

Are you aware that Russia recently modified its law and constitution to allow defence sale to pakistan ? .......... that is the chinese $ at work.

 

[NKVD]

After the 400 Billion $ Russia China deal, PAK FA is now not a safe bet. It was always a dicey deal and it just got dicier.

From a strategic point of view we are currently between the deep sea and the devil.

Our ONLY salvation is to pump LARGE amount of money (Billions of $) into DOMESTIC R&D and build up Capability so that we can leverage our PPP economy to counter the $ GDP of china.

LCA and AMCA is our way out. Now more than ever.

Sirji 480 billion is for gas deal are you comparing it to statergic deal .It's a contract based deal means our consideration is required in every stage of export of FGFA .thats why we are paying half cost of the programme it Different from what you called JV.

 

[he-man]

You misunderstand.......... China does not rely on Russian arms anymore.

PAK FA is going to be WILDLY EXPENSIVE. It won't be the Russia friendship price any-more. Worse, PAK FA will be sold to any other nation that wants it.

Are you aware that Russia recently modified its law and constitution to allow defence sale to pakistan ? .......... that is the chinese $ at work.

No it cannot since we are sharing 50% money in the deal.
Plus russia needs pakfa to save its own *** from china in future too so ur fears are unfounded here.

And since we are relying more on the west for our needs now,,,russia too needs new clients else their companies will go bust

I see. well till pakfa comes, mkis production will be ended and full fledged amca funding will be started only around LCAs last year's of manufacturing ie 2024-25. and last but not the last we are gonna spend around 100 billion dollars on our defence modernisation for a reason.

Am not convinced,,please bookmark this comment for reference in future.
U will see that bad plannig will bring us down .......................once again

 

[Makaramarma]

Sirji 480 billion is for gas deal are you comparing it to statergic deal .It's a contract based deal means our consideration is required in every stage of export of FGFA .thats why we are paying half cost of the programme it Different from what you called JV.

A Half a TRILLION $ deal is strategic in nature. Period !! Any way you look at it, it is a deal that redefines International politics.

The Russia of today does not need the measly 300 million $ we have put in and it certainly does not require our "expertise" via our engineers.

Change is the only reality in this world, so best to learn how to recognize the change when they take place.

 

[NKVD]

You misunderstand.......... China does not rely on Russian arms anymore.

PAK FA is going to be WILDLY EXPENSIVE. It won't be the Russia friendship price any-more. Worse, PAK FA will be sold to any other nation that wants it.

Are you aware that Russia recently modified its law and constitution to allow defence sale to pakistan ? .......... that is the chinese $ at work.

Sirji can i know your area expertise in aeronautical engineering

 

[Makaramarma]

Sirji can i know your area expertise in aeronautical engineering

How does it matter ? I could be lying.

It is not relevant. Follow the logic, that is much better.

 

[GURU DUTT]

rafale is a done deal maybe it wil be halved at the most but rafale is coming to IAF .. period

now what are alternates to fill in the gaps i think quatri M2Ks + Su35 combo is what heads are thinking in IAF and both might get an AESA perhaps

as for LCA i guess soon the policy of PPP policy in defence might be okayed and private players just might chip in to produce many delayed programms lets see what happens

 

[NKVD]

A Half a TRILLION $ deal is strategic in nature. Period !! Any way you look at it, it is a deal that redefines International politics.

The Russia of today does not need the measly 300 million $ we have put in and it certainly does not require our "expertise" via our engineers.

Change is the only reality in this world, so best to learn how to recognize the change when they take place.

Your making assumption on some trade deal even we are investing is gas pipeline
Secondly they need it we they want there Pak fa it's all depends on our finance
Your being sarcastic here its not knew that China have huge invest deals with Russians the that does not mean they forfeited us not before not now

 

[Makaramarma]

No it cannot since we are sharing 50% money in the deal.
Plus russia needs pakfa to save its own *** from china in future too so ur fears are unfounded here.

And since we are relying more on the west for our needs now,,,russia too needs new clients else their companies will go bust

Am not convinced,,please bookmark this comment for reference in future.
U will see that bad plannig will bring us down .......................once again

Do you really think Russia has spent only 300 million $ in making the PAK FA and flying at least 2 proto type ?

My own estimate is they must have spent at least 1.5 billion $ by now.

Revisit the Indian contribution to the PAK FA and read about how India is unhappy with the deal. Then read between the lines to understand Russian point of view.

We have spent 300 million $ to develop avionics that IAF will use. Russia will be using their own Avionics. That is the extent of our involvement in the PAK FA.

Lastly promises is only relevant if it can be backed by force. Since Russia is way stronger than us, any "promise" by russia is to be taken with a buck of salt. Especially since it has demonstrated that its promises is more like vague MOU's.

If the Vikramaditya deal has not taught us that by now we are forever doomed to be branded idiots.


Russia has made its peace with China. That is the new reality of the world TODAY.

Half a trillion $ deal is the writing on the wall. Russia making defence sale to pakistan after modifying its constitution was the second clue.

How much more clues do we need till the light finally dawns on us ?

 

[GURU DUTT]

Do you really think Russia has spent only 300 million $ in making the PAK FA and flying at least 2 proto type ?

My own estimate is they must have spent at least 1.5 billion $ by now.

Revisit the Indian contribution to the PAK FA and read about how India is unhappy with the deal. Then read between the lines to understand Russian point of view.

We have spent 300 million $ to develop avionics that IAF will use. Russia will be using their own Avionics. That is the extent of our involvement in the PAK FA.

Lastly promises is only relevant if it can be backed by force. Since Russia is way stronger than us, any "promise" by russia is to be taken with a buck of salt. Especially since it has demonstrated that its promises is more like vague MOU's.

If the Vikramaditya deal has not taught us that by now we are forever doomed to be branded idiots.


Russia has made its peace with China. That is the new reality of the world TODAY.

Half a trillion $ deal is the writing on the wall. Russia making defence sale to pakistan after modifying its constitution was the second clue.

How much more clues do we need till the light finally dawns on us ?

Totally agree with your point sir

 

[Makaramarma]

Your making assumption on some trade deal even we are investing is gas pipeline
Secondly they need it we they want there Pak fa it's all depends on our finance
Your being sarcastic here its not knew that China have huge invest deals with Russians the that does not mean they forfeited us not before not now

You mean the 480 Billion $ they get is not going to fund the PAK FA ?

What about their 480 billion $ worth of additional foreign reserve ? you think that can fund their PAK FA ?

Real life is not wishful thinking.

 

[SpArK]

Karnad is asking why buy a rejected jet. Does he knows why it was rejected? The real reasons?

The evaluation over various competitions have proven the Rafale's superiority over other jets.

So the issue just shrink to price and technology transfers, both of which are ongoing , a process of negotiation.

And there is the argument of acquiring 5th gen instead.

There arent many out there is market to simply buy or are in their development stage. Only F-35s which are dogged with issues are available and we have committed with Russians and their future plan.

Rafale deal is all about the defence industry plugging the technology gap, I dont even mind cutting down the strength of Raffy as the whose process is supposed to give the industry much know-how which otherwise might have taken years or decades .

 

[he-man]

You mean the 480 Billion $ they get is not going to fund the PAK FA ?

What about their 480 billion $ worth of additional foreign reserve ? you think that can fund their PAK FA ?

Real life is not wishful thinking.

The 400 billion$ deal is for 30 years dude.
Plus we are paying 50% money in pakfa

 

[Devdas]

No core tech will be transferred. Only the tech to manufacture 50% of the parts and assemble the rest.

In effect the money is to keep the HAL employed for the next 15 years.

Give me the proof of this?

I've scanned the internet front and back regarding the Rafale and have never seen anything like this.