Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

[he-man]

Do you really think Russia has spent only 300 million $ in making the PAK FA and flying at least 2 proto type ?

My own estimate is they must have spent at least 1.5 billion $ by now.

Revisit the Indian contribution to the PAK FA and read about how India is unhappy with the deal. Then read between the lines to understand Russian point of view.

We have spent 300 million $ to develop avionics that IAF will use. Russia will be using their own Avionics. That is the extent of our involvement in the PAK FA.

Lastly promises is only relevant if it can be backed by force. Since Russia is way stronger than us, any "promise" by russia is to be taken with a buck of salt. Especially since it has demonstrated that its promises is more like vague MOU's.

If the Vikramaditya deal has not taught us that by now we are forever doomed to be branded idiots.


Russia has made its peace with China. That is the new reality of the world TODAY.

Half a trillion $ deal is the writing on the wall. Russia making defence sale to pakistan after modifying its constitution was the second clue.


We got screwed in vicky deal due to our own stupidity,,,russia is not to be blamed.
When just on the basis of lowest bid,in order to save money u give order to refurbish an aircraft carrier to a shipyard that has never made even a destroyer,forget about an aircraft carrier,,,then u are bound to get fucked.

Sevmash shipyard is an expert in building nuclear submarines and had no experience in surface ships,,,so whose mistake was it??
How much more clues do we need till the light finally dawns on us ?

Give me the proof of this?

I've scanned the internet front and back regarding the Rafale and have never seen anything like this.

He is right,,it will be just like an mki deal.
We will gain 0 know how........................HAL will gain work for 10- years though

Do you really think Russia has spent only 300 million $ in making the PAK FA and flying at least 2 proto type ?

My own estimate is they must have spent at least 1.5 billion $ by now.

Revisit the Indian contribution to the PAK FA and read about how India is unhappy with the deal. Then read between the lines to understand Russian point of view.

We have spent 300 million $ to develop avionics that IAF will use. Russia will be using their own Avionics. That is the extent of our involvement in the PAK FA.

Lastly promises is only relevant if it can be backed by force. Since Russia is way stronger than us, any "promise" by russia is to be taken with a buck of salt. Especially since it has demonstrated that its promises is more like vague MOU's.

If the Vikramaditya deal has not taught us that by now we are forever doomed to be branded idiots.


Russia has made its peace with China. That is the new reality of the world TODAY.

Half a trillion $ deal is the writing on the wall. Russia making defence sale to pakistan after modifying its constitution was the second clue.

How much more clues do we need till the light finally dawns on us ?

We got screwed in vicky deal due to our own stupidity,,,russia is not to be blamed.
When just on the basis of lowest bid,in order to save money u give order to refurbish an aircraft carrier to a shipyard that has never made even a destroyer,forget about an aircraft carrier,,,then u are bound to get fucked.

Sevmash shipyard is an expert in building nuclear submarines and had no experience in surface ships,,,so whose mistake was it??

 

[Makaramarma]

The 400 billion$ deal is for 30 years dude.
Plus we are paying 50% money in pakfa

Do you know what is the average duration of an International treaty ?

It is 10 years.

That is because international politics can change in 10 years and along with it political interests and alignments also change.

There are very few treaties that are signed for longer duration.

Globally an average marriage lasts for 32 years.

So What does a 30 year old treaty/contract tells you ?

Its a marriage. Undoubtedly one of convenience, but a marriage never the less.

Its not about the money. Russia today has 480 billion $ is foreign exchange. That is roughly double of what India has.

We were expected to pay 50% of the production cost of PAK FA. But the catch is that it is 50% of what they claim is the production cost of PAK FA

For example, if the production cost of PAK FA is 500 million $ per plane, we pay 250 million $. how cool is that ?

He is right,,it will be just like an mki deal.
We will gain 0 know how........................HAL will gain work for 10- years though


We got screwed in vicky deal due to our own stupidity,,,russia is not to be blamed.
When just on the basis of lowest bid,in order to save money u give order to refurbish an aircraft carrier to a shipyard that has never made even a destroyer,forget about an aircraft carrier,,,then u are bound to get fucked.

Sevmash shipyard is an expert in building nuclear submarines and had no experience in surface ships,,,so whose mistake was it??

Everybody gets screwed due to their own stupidity. Best to learn something from it so that we can avoid the pain in the future.

 

[he-man]

Do you know what is the average duration of an International treaty ?

It is 10 years.

That is because international politics can change in 10 years and along with it political interests and alignments also change.

There are very few treaties that are signed for longer duration.

Globally an average marriage lasts for 32 years.

So What does a 30 year old treaty/contract tells you ?

Its a marriage. Undoubtedly one of convenience, but a marriage never the less.

Its not about the money. Russia today has 480 billion $ is foreign exchange. That is roughly double of what India has.

We were expected to pay 50% of the production cost of PAK FA. But the catch is that it is 50% of what they claim is the production cost of PAK FA

For example, if the production cost of PAK FA is 500 million $ per plane, we pay 250 million $. how cool is that ?

U are being unreasonable and naive here.
Fact of the matter is that HAL is just incapable of producing a machine of the caliber of rafale or pakfa or even mki.

U cannot discount this fact

 

[Bang Galore]

The more that I read about this deal, the more I tend to believe that this is a very costly, foolish mistake. Replacing single engine fighters with these a/c are never ever going to make sense. We needed to stick only with the Gripen & the F-16 for that. The cheaper one (probably the F-16) would have made the cut and we could have filled in the numbers. It would still have been a platform better than anything the Pakistanis would have and better than most of the basic chinese fighters. We should have, if necessary, supplemented it with about 40-60 (no more at the present) of either the Rafale or the Super Hornet (my preference for the American - cheaper on every scale, including bombs & missiles & with a more mature AESA) immediately with a direct purchase. That makes far more sense to me than this absolutely crazy deal. However good the Rafale is, this deal stopped making sense quite some time ago. We are committing economic harakiri here.

 

[Makaramarma]

U are being unreasonable and naive here.
Fact of the matter is that HAL is just incapable of producing a machine of the caliber of rafale or pakfa or even mki.

U cannot discount this fact

HAL is a pain but it has its uses. There are pros and cons to everything.

Just because our parents are old we cannot throw them out or make them dog food.

 

[SpArK]

The more that I read about this deal, the more I tend to believe that this is a very costly, foolish mistake. Replacing single engine fighters with these a/c are never ever going to make sense. We needed to stick only with the Gripen & the F-16 for that. The cheaper one (probably the F-16) would have made the cut and we could have filled in the numbers. It would still have been a platform better than anything the Pakistanis would have and better than most of the basic chinese fighters. We should have, if necessary, supplemented it with about 40-60 (no more at the present) of either the Rafale or the Super Hornet (my preference for the American - cheaper on every scale, including bombs & missiles & with a more mature AESA) immediately with a direct purchase. That makes far more sense to me than this absolutely crazy deal. However good the Rafale is, this deal stopped making sense quite some time ago. We are committing economic harakiri here.

Rafale deal is good only for ToT, which is good for future platforms.

A more faster, practical, cheaper option was always Gripen. The manufacturer would have given a great deal for its enormity.

TATA had some associations with Saab and a wonderful relation would have molded under this industry friendly government.

 

[Bang Galore]

Rafale deal is good only for ToT, which is good for future platforms.

A more faster, practical, cheaper option was always Gripen. The manufacturer would have given a great deal for its enormity.

TATA had some associations with Saab and a wonderful relation would have molded under this industry friendly government.

I'm not even sure about the ToT part being workable, the flight hour costs you put up look suicidal. Also you would think we would have learnt something about the French way of doing business with the M2k upgrade.....Obviously not!

 

[Sage]

To all Pakistan members here who are worried about India getting UAE mirages, see majority of indians here are not interested

We damn too rich to ignore the stop gap buys

Or it may be that the Moodi Sarkar wants to fill up their pockets once and for all via Rafale's over-expensive deal..... ....

 

[NKVD]

Or it may be that the Moodi Sarkar wants to fill up their pockets once and for all via Rafale's over-expensive deal..... ....

Over expensive but best fighter available it's maintain are superiority over southasia plus bring us the Tot which we need in future including Rbe2 Aesa to M88 engine and meteor BVR , spectra. The technology is always expensive if you got pockets you have might gone for it too don't preach us grapes will be always sour you

 

[sathya]

Or it may be that the Moodi Sarkar wants to fill up their pockets once and for all via Rafale's over-expensive deal..... ....

Modi government might only do 20 % of the remaining job..
Congress has finished 80 %, infact they wanted to even more to lessen Modi ' burden . But no Money..

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

2002-2005 was the best time for Rafale... Now, you are getting delivery from 2015- 2020..
You can get one generation Ahead fighter at same price.....Time is money...

 

[Badbadman]

I say double the Rafael order and include the private players into the TOT aspect who are willing to contribute to other IAF projects ie LCA mk2, AMCA. We can all talk economically wise here and there but reality is we are not capable of matching the production of defense hardware in our neighborhood yet. There is no other way. We have to buy

 

[NKVD]

JF-17 Thunder is also a fourth generation+ fighter aircraft with advance features like DSI etc.

Yes, but it is a little lower in capability than Eurofighter or latest F-15SA

Little lower it's light weight fighter like gripen and Mk2 and eurofighter and f- 15SA are medium and heavy class fighter

 

[he-man]

[



Everybody gets screwed due to their own stupidity. Best to learn something from it so that we can avoid the pain in the future.[/quote]

2002-2005 was the best time for Rafale... Now, you are getting delivery from 2015- 2020..
You can get one generation Ahead fighter at same price.....Time is money...

Actually u cannot

 

[Mr.S.Singh]

Do you really think Russia has spent only 300 million $ in making the PAK FA and flying at least 2 proto type ?

My own estimate is they must have spent at least 1.5 billion $ by now.

Revisit the Indian contribution to the PAK FA and read about how India is unhappy with the deal. Then read between the lines to understand Russian point of view.

you know IAF has been keeping a tap on the project, India has pledged to spend $8 billion for PAK-FA

More than India, Russia needs PAK-FA to counter American Stealth.

Lastly promises is only relevant if it can be backed by force. Since Russia is way stronger than us, any "promise" by russia is to be taken with a buck of salt. Especially since it has demonstrated that its promises is more like vague MOU's.

PAK-FA is a need for both, *period*

Russia has made its peace with China. That is the new reality of the world TODAY.

Half a trillion $ deal is the writing on the wall. Russia making defence sale to pakistan after modifying its constitution was the second clue.

Russia supplies gas, they supply more gas to EU then they would do to China. Russia is no one's friend.
Russia is still hesitant to give technology to china because it fears of copyright.