Why Pakistan Produces Jihadists

[EyelessInGaza]

Cheers AM, great post. You analysis appears to be insightful, especially this part which was very illuminating:

.............
So based on that I would argue that almost a decade of essentially non-existent Pakistani State support for Kashmiri insurgents does point to a movement away from violent proxies. That said, have all the Kashmiri groups been attacked and dismantled along the lines of the TTP? NO, and there are a few reasons for that.

First, I don't think the GoP saw that as necessary given they believed they had enough control over them to prevent the groups from attacking India. That belief obviously proved wrong with Mumbai, and at least some members of the LeT.

Secondly, without some sort of tangible progress on Kashmir, attacking the Kashmir focused groups is likely to drive them underground and likely link up with the TTP and AQ. These groups would also have a powerful message to continue to appeal to the masses - the GoP sold out Kashmir and Kashmiris at the behest of India - and that appeal could potentially provide resources enough to continue operations, primarily targeted against the Pakistani State, which only adds to terrorism problem being faced by Pakistan.

I think it was insightful because it makes the choices of GOP (well, PA, actually if we're being realistic) more 'human' from my perspective, instead of the evil/ Machiavellian plans they're represented as from an Indian POV.

In terms of a solution I think both will need to be deployed at some stage, sequentially rather than concurrently.

There are two potential ways out of the impasse IMO:

1. Pakistan is able to exert a degree of control over all of FATA and the PA starts handing over responsibilities to the local security forces, and is therefore able to tackle any potential fallout from taking on the Kashmir focused groups.

2. There is movement on Kashmir and the GoP is able to sell that to the people (and the Kashmiri groups) and then be able to act against them if they refuse to disarm.

I am assuming that by "movement on Kashmir" in your # (2), you mean some movement from India. If so I'd agree - it is a a bit of a Gordian knot for both sides, so in all likelihood GOI will have to make some compromise somewhere on Kashmir and sell it to Indians.

However, I'd state that even if there is a agreed compromise on Kashmir, GOP may still need to 'actively' dismantle the armed cells and, at least, make them totally irrelevant.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

I cannot really believe that so long as Indians, at least the ones on this forum, continue to glorify Indian actions in 1971.

If your comments really are sincere, condemnation of Indian actions, in training and supporting East Pakistani terrorists/rebels, would go a long way in validating that sincerity.

AM, off topic but do you have a link where I can understand 1971 from your perspective? A discussion on this forum would be great - when you have time no hurries.

I'm afraid so far most of my understanding of 71 has been based on an Indian POV. Would be nice to hear reasoned arguments from the other side.

Anyway, back to the discussion.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

so what action pakistan taken against taliban before 911

Have you deleted your previous post and retracted your comments yet?

 

[tapsumbong]

I cannot really believe that so long as Indians, at least the ones on this forum, continue to glorify Indian actions in 1971.

If your comments really are sincere, condemnation of Indian actions, in training and supporting East Pakistani terrorists/rebels, would go a long way in validating that sincerity.

I realize that, and I don't think there is any other way to show we are sincere than by pointing to you what India today stands for, India today stands for economy and nothing else. To India and to Indians, nothing is paramount than building a strong booming economy and eradicating poverty and thus getting to a stage where she can exert her strategic influence all over the world. I am not naive, I know most Pakistanis want the same too, but difference here is in India somehow in the past 15-20 yrs this economic outlook has become manifested itself in the ground day-to-day life of Indians everywhere. You may point to war mongerers on Indian side during the parliament attack, during mumbai attacks, but the bottomline is that it was just talk and that too from a few. You didn't see any such action taken by the government, and moreover, in light of Indians knowing that their government didn't teach Pakistan a lesson, still those same Indians, in millions, emphatically re-elected that same government and rejected that government which moved troops to the border. So tell me AM, what does that tell you.
80s and 90s were tough time to be in India, and the hard lessons we learned and the changes Indians have seen in a decade, mid-90s to mid-2000s has etched in our brains that we have to become an economic power first and eradicate poverty and bring development first before we start projecting our other powers. And being a long-time reader of this forum, I can say with utmost confidence that 80% of Indians in this forum don't belong to the "teach pakistan a lesson" or "lets go to war with pakistan over kashmir and destroy our economy" or "lets get the other part of kashmir into India" or "build akhand bharat" crowd. There always will be some hawks, on both sides, but what matters is the overall outlook of a country and we have a positive one.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

what a garbage article posted by Munshi.

I don't even know where to begin. Typical anti-Pakistan and anti-Islam banter.

 

[notsuperstitious]

The LeT/JuD has a significant PR campaign and social services network in Pakistan. Couple that with the low popularity of both the Musharraf and PPP regimes and the perception that they are 'America's lackeys', and not every move the GoP takes is viewed as 'Kosher'. The JuD also ran a very public legal campaign to get its name cleared, and called for a trial in an international court to validate the UN decision to declare it a 'terrorist group' - the UN does act very opaquely when listing entities as 'terrorist'. Add in the extensive JuD social services network of hospitals, clinics, schools, orphanages, etc. their relief activities in disaster affected areas (Kashmir earthquake, IDP's) and it is not hard to see why they are still popular amongst so many in Pakistan.



What is naive here is your inability to look beyond a 'headline' and analyze and understand the underlying dynamics behind popular support for organizations such as the JuD. Support for the JuD or LeT is certainly not because they are believed to be going around killing innocents.

And when you say 'supports the method'. most polls from Pakistan indicate an opposition to suicide bombings and the killings of innocents, as I pointed out before, so what 'method' are we talking about?

As I pointed out to Toxic, most Indians on this forum still support the Indian training and support to 'terrorists' in East Pakistan, despite knowing what devastation that caused and the atrocities committed by the East Pakistan rebels - how does your logic apply to that then? What part of India's identity would you say lends itself to overwhelming support for terrorist activities in East Pakistan?

LET has not done suicide bombings in India and Indians are probably not innocent - we are infidels you see (refer Dawn Faridkot article), so your poll results can be explained without disturbing my assertions, just the way LET's popularity can be explained due to JUD's 'charity work'.

 

[Solomon2]

Abu Zolfiqar, the article ran in the Wall Street Journal, one of America's most prestigious newspapers. Although it concentrates mostly on financial matters, what foreign coverage it has is widely respected, so the article will influence American policymakers. If you are going to critique it effectively, you are going to have to be specific.

 

[tapsumbong]

Would also like to clear one thing: Growing up, and I speak for most Indians here, I had a lot of resentment against Pakistan. With ISI and Khalistani terrorists and Kashmiri terrorists peppered in every other sentence in any public debate, our leaders railing that we will take the other part of Kashmir as well (those calls have disappeared now), believe me when I say we felt that Pakistan is our enemy and we have to get all of Kashmir. But now, the whole national mentality has changed, even though Mumbai and bomb blasts in Delhi, Bangalore, etc. keep going off, we still don't want any confrontation that would stall our economy. We have grown closer to the US not only for its sophisticated arms and ammunitions, but primarily for the huge economic benefits it has brought to India, this fact skips everybody's mind that we diametrically changed our Strategic Outlook and got close to the US, when judging what Indians want and think.

India has umpteen militants, but where in the 80s and 90s those militant groups wanted freedom from India, today the militants want a slice of the pie of the Indian economic story. The maoists are fighting because they resent the lack of development and economic benefits to tribals, not because they want freedom from India. There are no khalistan, or bodoland or ULFA and what not groups in India killing innocents for independence, those groups have been crushed and their ideology captured.

So long story short, and back to relevance with this thread's topic, Pakistan has to move past its past or present grievances in order for these jihadists to lose their cause and Raison d'être and in that I believe India can help reasonably.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

as far as Kashmir is concerned, india is the problem. Not Pakistan

 

[Storm Force]

Tapsumbong.

Good Post.

Pakistans internal problems stem from a clear lack of direction or goal.

This obession of India & Kashmir and Water rights and Threat perception has to stop if Pakistanis are too prosper in the coming time.

 

[tapsumbong]

as far as Kashmir is concerned, india is the problem. Not Pakistan

Even though I do not agree with what you say, you maybe right from your point of view, but even if India is the problem, the way Pakistan has dealt with this problem has led directly to the jihadist monster that we all witness now. So ask yourself is it reasonable to continue, firstly, with the problem itself, and secondly, dealing with it the same way as before.

 

[Xeric]

Things are brewing up for pakistan to be the next in line on WOT.

Good luck Pakistan.

Last time i checked it was india against whom the West issued (Embassy) releases to their citizens residing inside india to stay careful of terrorist acts.

Grow up, troll!

 

[Xeric]

So you accept that background is important when making decisions.
My point was not whether you were familiar with this gentleman or not. It is regarding your remark of "typical Indian drivel" to an article in an American paper. You did not refer to it as "American drivel". That would go to show that no matter what or where, people are judged by their background and not necessarily by their current position.

Why is there such surprise then that Pakistanis of varying nationalities or in varying professions are singled out ? Would it not, however wronged one might feel, be natural because of their background?


Again my question. Why "Indian drivel"? Why not "neo-con drivel", "standard Murdoch drivel", "right wing drivel"?

Easier to point out prejudices in others than to look within.

Had an iota of common sense prevailed around where you sit the following should have saved your time and our bandwidth:

Over the past decade, Pakistani fingerprints have shown up on terrorist plots in, among other places, Germany, Denmark, Spain and the Netherlands. And this partial catalogue doesn't include India, which tends to bear the brunt of its western neighbor's love affair with violence.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

LET has not done suicide bombings in India and Indians are probably not innocent - we are infidels you see (refer Dawn Faridkot article), so your poll results can be explained without disturbing my assertions, just the way LET's popularity can be explained due to JUD's 'charity work'.

No, your assertions remain invalid since you have not illustrated that a significant percentage of Pakistanis support the position that attacks on non-Pakistani civilians are acceptable while those on Pakistani civilians are not.

Let me point out, for the third time, that repeated polling in Pakistan over the past few years has shown that Pakistanis overwhelmingly condemn terrorism and attacks on non-combatants. A couple of people from Faridkot quoted in an article does not signify a national trend.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I realize that, and I don't think there is any other way to show we are sincere than by pointing to you what India today stands for, India today stands for economy and nothing else. To India and to Indians, nothing is paramount than building a strong booming economy and eradicating poverty and thus getting to a stage where she can exert her strategic influence all over the world. I am not naive, I know most Pakistanis want the same too, but difference here is in India somehow in the past 15-20 yrs this economic outlook has become manifested itself in the ground day-to-day life of Indians everywhere. You may point to war mongerers on Indian side during the parliament attack, during mumbai attacks, but the bottomline is that it was just talk and that too from a few. You didn't see any such action taken by the government, and moreover, in light of Indians knowing that their government didn't teach Pakistan a lesson, still those same Indians, in millions, emphatically re-elected that same government and rejected that government which moved troops to the border. So tell me AM, what does that tell you.
80s and 90s were tough time to be in India, and the hard lessons we learned and the changes Indians have seen in a decade, mid-90s to mid-2000s has etched in our brains that we have to become an economic power first and eradicate poverty and bring development first before we start projecting our other powers. And being a long-time reader of this forum, I can say with utmost confidence that 80% of Indians in this forum don't belong to the "teach pakistan a lesson" or "lets go to war with pakistan over kashmir and destroy our economy" or "lets get the other part of kashmir into India" or "build akhand bharat" crowd. There always will be some hawks, on both sides, but what matters is the overall outlook of a country and we have a positive one.

Nowhere in there did I see a categorical rejection/condemnation of the policies pursued by the GoI in 1971.

What I saw was a sales pitch promoting the virtues of Indian benevolence without once condemning the not-so benevolent acts of the past. No condemnation of past 'support for terrorism', and the overwhelming majority of Indian infantry and armored divisions continue to be deployed against Pakistan on the IB and LoC. A sales pitch extolling the virtues of Indian economic growth alone will not cut it, I would like to see some meaningful rejection of policies such as the Indian support for terrorists/rebels in East Pakistan and support for redeployment of Indian forces away from the IB.

If the elections of governments are what we are to go by, the I could also point to the election, by a large margin, of the PPP, MQM, ANP coalition of largely liberal parties in Pakistan. Include the centrist PML-Q and that margin increases even more. Include the center right PML-N, by no means a religious party, though more conservative than the others, and the religious right was rejected overwhelmingly in the last elections, and has in fact been rejected overwhelmingly in every election held in Pakistan, despite the major religious parties being considered the most 'disciplined and organized' political parties in Pakistan.