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Why Pakistan Balks at the U.S. Afghanistan Offensive

:rofl: Pakistan doesnt bother to guard its own borders and thats the US's fault thats a new high on the rolf factor. Though the following comes close..


Nothing was coming in Pakistan when US was n t there. And also read the Pakistan tribal history may be you will find some answers.
I am sure any one who hates Pakistan would love that, Pakistan would end up fighting the Taliban inside , the US outside and india would walk in when it saw the PAK army streached on two fronts. You can argue over america being good or bad for pakistan but only a fool or an enemy of Pakistan would sugest attacking them.

That is true that American will leave Pakistan in this mess alone like it already did in Russia afghan war.
Now you tell me who’s fault is this.
What ever you said if happened then it is totally US fault.
 
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"Pakistan Army should take some serious action againts these drones we've lost our soverigenity we have to gain it back..."

You lost your sovereignty when your army failed to fight the afghan taliban gov't and it's army in 2001-2002. You acquiesced then and have since lied to this young man in DIR and others about your duplicity in surrendering these tribal lands to a foreign taliban government from which it makes war on Afghanistan.

One might easily presume that were you to care for your tribal citizens in the same manner in which you demonstrably care about those of SWAT and Buner, this condition of taliban enslavement in FATA wouldn't have arisen. Instead your army would have fought then in FATA as it fights now in SWAT/Buner.

Drones are the chosen means by which the U.S. government protects it's forces and allies from these attacks eminating for eight years from your soil.

Please cease this behavior. Once you've verifiably done so, I've no doubt that drone attacks will no longer be necessary. Until then, we reserve the right to protect our interests. Be glad that other options haven't been explored as we're entirely capable of a much more vigorous defense.

you are reflecting the policy of US during the WWI and WWII when Afriacan-American were slaves since you guys decided to come in our backyard and trying to dictate us like your some how choosen ruler of the world (Policing around the world).Afganistan army is as good as dead they love Hashish 95% of them are kicked out of thier village to make a living they get US taxpayers money and buy drugs i recommend you to take Drug test of Afgan Army and by the way your country isnt far more than 68% of American's i've met are on weed or crystalmyth i suggest you do more drug programs in your high school rather i seriously doubt US superpower status will be continued for more than a decade now you have and here's do some drug test in your Army who's serving in Afganistan US survies because of immigrants who come to US and bring alot on the table while US born student drop out rates are amazing and GED programs.Pakistan is far better we need Sharia Law is Pakistan to have no drug flow and Alchol and quick Justice there's no supreme court only supreme court there is Allah's court i suggest who Pakistan's come trolling disagree with me might want to consider living in India because Pakistan is a Islamic Republic.:pakistan:
 
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Men Behind Barack Obama:

Webster G Tarpley has got some valid points to say about the US policy in Afghanistan, what's going on to Pakistan and what will be it's future.



:chilli:
 
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"...that is reason we are facing problems in FATA and SWAT."

Of course it isn't.

Your problems are the result of the total neglect for the proper education of your citizens. Then you allowed these charismatic terrorists like Omar, OBL, and Zawahiri to enter and dominate the Pakistani lands in which they now reside.

Your agents left. The tribal leaders were murdered and any kid in FATA or SWAT could see that the "cool" dudes were the irhabists.

They had to be because your government wasn't doing anything about them. Might as well join a winner.

So they did.

Big mistake letting these men into your lands. They infected your uneductated and easily-swayed locals.

Blowback. This is the natural consequence of Pakistan's long-standing policy to wage proxy war on others. You can no longer control the hydra.

Your problems are of your own making.
 
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"...that is reason we are facing problems in FATA and SWAT."

Of course it isn't.

Your probles are the result of the total neglect for the proper education of your citizens. Then you allowed these charismatic terrorists like Omar, OBL, and Zawahiri to enter and dominate the Pakistani lands in which they now reside.

Your agents left. The tribal leaders were murdered and any kid in FATA or SWAT could see that the "cool" dudes were the irhabists.

They had to be because your government wasn't doing anything about them. Might as well join a winner.

So they did.

Big mistake letting these men into your lands. They infected your uneductated and easily-swayed locals.

Blowback. This is the natural consequence of Pakistan's long-standing policy to wage proxy war on others. You can no longer control the hydra.

Your problems are of your own making.

S2,

This is 21 century , US underestimated the fighting tactics of talaban trained by our top generals during Afghan Russian war.

Reality is US forces after capturing major cities of Afghanistan in 2001 gave Talaban fighters safe passage to our land, US should first sieze the Afghan Pakistan boarder but why ignored at that time is big question mark?

Every one know that FATA is no man land , local tribels have their own intrests and as per tribel history no invader stay or try to capture that area, which is itself long debate.


Now blaming Pakistan will not work ,US lost war the day the Talaban entered in FATA .Bad experience in Afghanistan is good experience for your next expeditions, but remember Zulu war era is now over , at that time local people were straight forward could not read the strategy of white man but with time all nations learn the modren war fare and importance of war strategy.:enjoy:
 
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"US underestimated the fighting tactics of talaban trained by our top generals during Afghan Russian war."

Experts, eh?:lol:

Then explain Bajaur, SWAT, and Buner. They should never have happened under such expert scrutiny.

"US should first sieze the Afghan Pakistan boarder but why ignored at that time is big question mark?"

No. Our objectives were achieved. You have an army who's purpose is, ostensibly, to defend Pakistan from all foreign armies. It failed to do so.

Not OUR responsibility to defend your borders for you AND fight a war. Childlike naivete is no substitute for a nat'l imperative imposed upon your armed forces.

Defend your borders responsibly and the afghan taliban gov't, its army and Al Qaeda would have had nowhere to run. Judging by events, it's difficult to say whether you actually failed or simply chose to ignore that responsibility and, instead, assist your presumed "allies".

Either way, their presence in your lands has contaminated all those whom you've failed to adequately educate. They make war upon you.

Your problem then and now. Get used to it and learn to take responsibility over the lands that you ostensibly claim are yours. If so, control them. If beyond your means and ability to control your tribal citizens, simply will the land to Afghanistan.

They can't do much worse and might do better.
 
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"US underestimated the fighting tactics of talaban trained by our top generals during Afghan Russian war."

Experts, eh?:lol:

Then explain Bajaur, SWAT, and Buner. They should never have happened under such expert scrutiny.

Why Russian miltery academy had included Gen Akhtar war strategies as their text , it means Russian are fool.

"US should first sieze the Afghan Pakistan boarder but why ignored at that time is big question mark?"


No. Our objectives were achieved. You have an army who's purpose is, ostensibly, to defend Pakistan from all foreign armies. It failed to do so.

Not OUR responsibility to defend your borders for you AND fight a war. Childlike naivete is no substitute for a nat'l imperative imposed upon your armed forces.

Defend your borders responsibly and the afghan taliban gov't, its army and Al Qaeda would have had nowhere to run. Judging by events, it's difficult to say whether you actually failed or simply chose to ignore that responsibility and, instead, assist your presumed "allies".

US objective was only to up root the talaban government ?

PA has its own priorities to defend its eastern boarders, we never face any danger from western boarder, you should accept bad war strategy of your generals .

Either way, their presence in your lands has contaminated all those whom you've failed to adequately educate. They make war upon you.

All Afghan talaban cammanders are fighting in Afghanistan .Mobile shourah may be inside Pakistan , but it could not be detected due to its small size and frequent movements.

Your problem then and now. Get used to it and learn to take responsibility over the lands that you ostensibly claim are yours. If so, control them. If beyond your means and ability to control your tribal citizens, simply will the land to Afghanistan.

They can't do much worse and might do better.

FATA and AFGHANISTAN is no man land from thausand of years, they have tribel system which is only proven system .If you have any alternative better government structure , please let us know.:D
 
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"PA has its own priorities to defend its eastern boarders, we never face any danger from western boarder [sic]..."

That's your problem if you don't have the good sense and maturity to take responsibility for defending ALL your borders.

"...you should accept bad war strategy of your generals..."

We don't. We assume responsibility for our actions, evaluate such for improvement and implement accordingly. Nothing's etched in stone in our world and everything is subject to re-evaluation and adjustment.

OTOH, you should accept that your negligence (or intent) in ignoring your west has led you to the miserable state in which you now find yourselves.

Fundamentalist, let me assure you that were we to leave Afghanistan tomorrow and dis-engage ourselves of all aid and assistance to your country, you'd still wake up with these evil men eager to overthrow your country and grab your nukes.

This is your war and you chose it when you allowed these men on your lands. I don't really care if you fight it or not as I'm uncertain whether you are Amerca's enemy or not.

It is entirely possible that the enemy we should be fighting is you. I'm unclear here. Until such time as I see your forces actively engaged in attacking Nazir, Bahadur, Hekmatyar, Haqqani, and (most of all) Omar, I shall presume that it's highly likely that you eagerly assist these men in killing OUR men.

That, if true, would make Pakistan an enemy of my nation. Certainly no friend.

You are duplicitous and treacherous in the use of proxies. It cannot continue indefinitely without America and others deciding that you cannot be helped. Do you need assistance imagining the steps beyond such conclusions?

Our civilian and military leadership are under a mandate to evaluate your assistance and, also, the intrigue/duplicity of your actions to determine whether you are worthy of our continuing help.

To date it's a mixed bag. Nobody objects to your SWAT/Buner efforts. They are entirely appropriate given the existential threat these militants represented to your nat'l survival. How far beyond such and when is another question. The Islamic Emirate of Waziristan represents a grand opportunity to milk American largesse while procrastinating the hard work of war.

We'll see what happens but I hold little hope, regardless of Gilani's recent words that ALL taliban will be attacked. Frankly, I'm unsure if Gilani and his civilian compatriots have ANY real authority to suggest such.

That decision, as all other nat'l security/foreign policy decisions, resides with your military which remains the real power in Pakistan.

Good luck.
 
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"dont challenge me on that since your buddies the brits have just yesterday accepted Pakistan's claims in defeating talibans in Swat..."

Oh gosh, I can't help myself-

Taliban Resume Attacks In SWAT Valley- WSJ 27 July, 2009

Oh! They found Jahan Zada's body the other day, btw.

Beheaded.

Don't be so arrogant and, instead, prepare yourself for the odious task of sustaining your victories.

"...what better way then to shot down a couple of illegal birds flying over a soverign territory."

Then we put a couple of more up. No biggie. They're not piloted jets. That's one of PREDATOR/REAPER's advantages. Meanwhile you lose all that groovy intel we've handed over to you (see MBI Munshi here).

OTOH, I don't think your country is ready to lose all that recently promised aid and certainly haven't re-settled your SWAT/Buner populations yet with winter just around the corner.

"...the next government whoever it maybe will not show the same restraint and flexibility that the US enjoys currently."

We hear, O great Khan, and tremble before you.:lol:

Seriously man i thought english was your 1st language but then again:rolleyes:
Now read my post again i said taliban are on the run.....are they not? and as you said we lost our soverignity to taliban, i said we are getting it back. And isolated incidents like these will occur from time to time as operation is still not 100% complete and i never said it is complete...if i did let me know but in case you didnt notice IDP are now being sent back to home and life there has started to come back to normal.

And yeah one more thing the link you mentioned isnt working, try better next time in proving your point. Above i just gave you the benefit of doubt but then again you cant help it right?
 
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Link works fine for me but here ya' go. Hate for you to use that as an excuse-

"Taliban militants driven from the Swat Valley by Pakistan's army in recent months are again infiltrating the region's towns and villages, kidnapping and beheading perceived enemies and ambushing soldiers, as hundreds of thousands of refugees return home.

View Slideshow

Associated Press
.Whether the latest violence represents the last gasp of a dying insurgency or the first sign of the militants' recovery is hard to tell. But the renewed violence is a sharp reminder that the offensive for the strategic valley, which won effusive praise from the U.S. and European nations, remains far from complete.

One of the most recent incidents took place around midnight Thursday, when eight bearded men with Kalashnikovs and dressed in army uniforms came looking for Jahan Zada, the head clerk of a small-town police station in Swat. Three took up positions on the roof of the boxy, two-story brick home, said a neighbor who witnessed the incident. The other five kicked down the front door.

"That's when we knew they were Taliban," said the witness, who asked that he be identified as Junaid. "They dragged him out and took him away."

Within hours, four of the alleged Taliban kidnappers were killed by security forces, officials say. Mr. Zada is still missing.

Pakistan's military declared the valley secure two weeks ago, after weeks of intense fighting against the Taliban in what has been viewed as the start of a major pushback by Pakistani forces against the militants' spread. The military has since been encouraging the more than two million people who had fled the area to return: 350,000 have already come home.

But some of the militants who melted away in the face of the offensive are re-emerging, while others remain holed up in mountainside redoubts.

Pakistan's military spokesman, Maj. Gen Athar Abbas, said that until the military has a better handle on the valley, it is unlikely to open another front in the tribal areas along the Afghan border, the Taliban's most important strongholds in Pakistan and the rear base for militants fighting U.S. and allied forces in Afghanistan.

In the past week, three civilians have been beheaded by the Taliban in and around Mingora, the valley's main town. Mr. Zada was kidnapped in a nearby town, Sangota. In another nearby village, the janitor at a police station was killed, say military officers, diplomats and aid workers.

The army, meanwhile, is engaged in near-daily firefights with pockets of Taliban resisters. Most clashes are small, but dozens of militants have been killed in recent days, along with a few soldiers, the army says.

"The situation is still uncertain," said Shazeb Ali, 28 years old, who returned to his home and mobile-phone shop in Mingora two weeks ago. "We can hear the sound of firing some distance away."

Military commanders say the violence is nowhere near the level seen in Swat in the wake of a February peace deal that effectively handed the valley to the Taliban, or at the height of the offensive, which began in late April after the militants pushed into two neighboring districts and came within 60 miles of Islamabad, the capital.

The recent beheadings, gun battles and threats are a sharp reminder for Pakistan and its foreign allies, "that there is no quick solution to the challenge we face from these miscreants," said Gen Abbas.

Authorities in Peshawar said Sunday they had arrested Sufi Mohammed, the cleric who negotiated the Swat peace deal on behalf of the Taliban, and two of his sons. They were arrested for encouraging violence and terrorism, said Mian Iftikhar Hussain, the information minister of North West Frontier Province, which includes Swat. There was no immediate comment from Mr. Mohammed's spokesman.

With violence in Swat continuing, authorities are having trouble recruiting police and administrators because candidates fear being targeted. The violence is also making it hard to re-establish some semblance of the valley's social order, which was upended during two years of unrest in which the Taliban imposed a harsh brand of Islamic law and fomented a rebellion by chasing off the small class of landlords who controlled most of the valley's business.

A faltering reconstruction could leave the strategic valley exposed for what would be the third Taliban takeover since 2007.

View Full Image

Associated Press

Soldiers in the Swat town of Mingora on Sunday pose with youths who the military said had been rescued after being forced to join the Taliban.
.The military says it has decimated the Swat Taliban's command-and-control abilities and its logistics infrastructure, and soldiers now control the main roads, towns and villages on the banks of the Swat River.

But the "Taliban are still entrenched in some mountainous areas," said Brig. Tahir Hameed Rana, a commander in Mingora.

The valley's Taliban commanders remain at large. Gen. Abbas, the military spokesman, called this "our biggest failure."

"We're going to continue these raids and these snatch-and-grab operations until we have them," he said. "We can't allow them to continue instilling fear in the population."

Swat Taliban leader Maulana Fazlullah, known as the 'radio mullah' for his fiery broadcasts on the Taliban's pirate FM radio station, was again heard on the airwaves for three days last week. Muslim Khan, the Swat Taliban's spokesman, has also resurfaced. He told local journalists last week that the Taliban's main forces would return.

Junaid, the man who witnessed last week's kidnapping of Mr. Zada, said when he hears Mr. Fazlullah's voice, "I fear the Taliban are preparing to come back," said. He said he and his family are staying for now. Military commanders say they are banking on such people to help root out Taliban holdouts"
 
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Link works fine for me but here ya' go. Hate for you to use that as an excuse-

Taliban militants driven from the Swat Valley by Pakistan's army in recent months are again infiltrating the region's towns and villages, kidnapping and beheading perceived enemies and ambushing soldiers, as hundreds of thousands of refugees return home.

View Slideshow

Associated Press
.Whether the latest violence represents the last gasp of a dying insurgency or the first sign of the militants' recovery is hard to tell. But the renewed violence is a sharp reminder that the offensive for the strategic valley, which won effusive praise from the U.S. and European nations, remains far from complete.

One of the most recent incidents took place around midnight Thursday, when eight bearded men with Kalashnikovs and dressed in army uniforms came looking for Jahan Zada, the head clerk of a small-town police station in Swat. Three took up positions on the roof of the boxy, two-story brick home, said a neighbor who witnessed the incident. The other five kicked down the front door.

"That's when we knew they were Taliban," said the witness, who asked that he be identified as Junaid. "They dragged him out and took him away."

Within hours, four of the alleged Taliban kidnappers were killed by security forces, officials say. Mr. Zada is still missing.

Pakistan's military declared the valley secure two weeks ago, after weeks of intense fighting against the Taliban in what has been viewed as the start of a major pushback by Pakistani forces against the militants' spread. The military has since been encouraging the more than two million people who had fled the area to return: 350,000 have already come home.

But some of the militants who melted away in the face of the offensive are re-emerging, while others remain holed up in mountainside redoubts.

Pakistan's military spokesman, Maj. Gen Athar Abbas, said that until the military has a better handle on the valley, it is unlikely to open another front in the tribal areas along the Afghan border, the Taliban's most important strongholds in Pakistan and the rear base for militants fighting U.S. and allied forces in Afghanistan.

In the past week, three civilians have been beheaded by the Taliban in and around Mingora, the valley's main town. Mr. Zada was kidnapped in a nearby town, Sangota. In another nearby village, the janitor at a police station was killed, say military officers, diplomats and aid workers.

The army, meanwhile, is engaged in near-daily firefights with pockets of Taliban resisters. Most clashes are small, but dozens of militants have been killed in recent days, along with a few soldiers, the army says.

"The situation is still uncertain," said Shazeb Ali, 28 years old, who returned to his home and mobile-phone shop in Mingora two weeks ago. "We can hear the sound of firing some distance away."

Military commanders say the violence is nowhere near the level seen in Swat in the wake of a February peace deal that effectively handed the valley to the Taliban, or at the height of the offensive, which began in late April after the militants pushed into two neighboring districts and came within 60 miles of Islamabad, the capital.

The recent beheadings, gun battles and threats are a sharp reminder for Pakistan and its foreign allies, "that there is no quick solution to the challenge we face from these miscreants," said Gen Abbas.

Authorities in Peshawar said Sunday they had arrested Sufi Mohammed, the cleric who negotiated the Swat peace deal on behalf of the Taliban, and two of his sons. They were arrested for encouraging violence and terrorism, said Mian Iftikhar Hussain, the information minister of North West Frontier Province, which includes Swat. There was no immediate comment from Mr. Mohammed's spokesman.

With violence in Swat continuing, authorities are having trouble recruiting police and administrators because candidates fear being targeted. The violence is also making it hard to re-establish some semblance of the valley's social order, which was upended during two years of unrest in which the Taliban imposed a harsh brand of Islamic law and fomented a rebellion by chasing off the small class of landlords who controlled most of the valley's business.

A faltering reconstruction could leave the strategic valley exposed for what would be the third Taliban takeover since 2007.

View Full Image

Associated Press

Soldiers in the Swat town of Mingora on Sunday pose with youths who the military said had been rescued after being forced to join the Taliban.
.The military says it has decimated the Swat Taliban's command-and-control abilities and its logistics infrastructure, and soldiers now control the main roads, towns and villages on the banks of the Swat River.

But the "Taliban are still entrenched in some mountainous areas," said Brig. Tahir Hameed Rana, a commander in Mingora.

The valley's Taliban commanders remain at large. Gen. Abbas, the military spokesman, called this "our biggest failure."

"We're going to continue these raids and these snatch-and-grab operations until we have them," he said. "We can't allow them to continue instilling fear in the population."

Swat Taliban leader Maulana Fazlullah, known as the 'radio mullah' for his fiery broadcasts on the Taliban's pirate FM radio station, was again heard on the airwaves for three days last week. Muslim Khan, the Swat Taliban's spokesman, has also resurfaced. He told local journalists last week that the Taliban's main forces would return.

Junaid, the man who witnessed last week's kidnapping of Mr. Zada, said when he hears Mr. Fazlullah's voice, "I fear the Taliban are preparing to come back," said. He said he and his family are staying for now. Military commanders say they are banking on such people to help root out Taliban holdouts"

And your soruce for this....ohh yes i forgot the magic link which for some reason doesnt open when some one else clicks on it other then you.:disagree: And really its not opening, i dont need an excuse or covers to hide behind.

Anyways lets go with what you just posted above it says militants came in and kidnapped the head clerk of a small-town police station in Swat and it also says that within hours fours of them were killed. Now target killing is always there not just in Swat but also in places like karachi and it is not something which we werent expecting, by the way are you a real military person because if you were you wouldnt have raised an obvious point of repercussion.
My question is what are you trying to prove here and how is it related to my post.
Let me remind you of what you said and what was my response to you.
You said to Asim that Pakistan lost its soverignity the day it surrended to taliban which is like a foreign government, i replied saying maybe you are correct however we have started to reclaim our soverignity and most recent example is swat and the success in Swat is even accepted by Brits.
Just because rare incidents like these happen, you cannot call the whole operation to be a failure and if yes then you should also consider the same in afghanistan where you are often seen beating your chest around in threads pointing out the obvious because in the end Incidents like these happen more often there. Just recently Karzai's opposition leader was attacked in afghanistan.
The whole point of my argument is reclaiming our soverignity and which also means from the US, your argument is a strawman argument pointing out rare incidents which is nothing more then a last attempt by the defeated militants to somehow put their fear into the minds and hearts of the people who are returning.. The biggest example of success comes right from your own artcile which says 350,000 people have already come home and let me also tell you the number is increasing each day with more and more people coming back home. Now let me ask you if the situation wasnt favourable, do you think they would have come back?
 
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I personally think the real battle for Swat might start right now. Before the army went in, there were estimates of 5,000 strong militants in the valley. The army claims to have killed around 1,800. The others are not dead. More importantly, the leadership is still alive and will try to stage a comeback. Sure its a given that some of the militants were just ordinary criminals and thugs who joined the dominant party, but I still think there are hundreds of these Talibans who just went into the refugee camps or became 'civilians.'

Now that the population is back in Swat, the 'game' will probably start again. The police force needs to be efficient and brave this time.
 
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I personally think the real battle for Swat might start right now. Before the army went in, there were estimates of 5,000 strong militants in the valley. The army claims to have killed around 1,800. The others are not dead. More importantly, the leadership is still alive and will try to stage a comeback. Sure its a given that some of the militants were just ordinary criminals and thugs who joined the dominant party, but I still think there are hundreds of these Talibans who just went into the refugee camps or became 'civilians.'

Now that the population is back in Swat, the 'game' will probably start again. The police force needs to be efficient and brave this time.

It is a well known fact that militants will now try everything that they could muster in an attempt to sabotage not only the returning of the IDPs but also to throw the area back in chaos, however not something unexpected of something which will take our military planners by a surprise. In recent days both the suicidal attacks in the country as well on security personals have decreased to a considerate amount which suggests ony one thing that this time security forces have the upper hand and the breathing space for miltiants is getting choked.
 
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My source for this is as indicated in the link- WSJ (Wall Street Journal). Type in the title and WSJ to google and it will likely be the first or second hit.

"My question is what are you trying to prove here and how is it related to my post."

WRT you? Simply that your work is far from done in SWAT/Buner and your comment about what the Brits have accepted is irrelevant to the facts on the ground.

Things are often said publically it be a "team player". "Defeating" the taliban seems certainly to be true and that's laudable. Still, it will be some time before your citizens feel secure.

Afterall, it seems you missed the portion of the article indicating three OTHER beheadings in the Mingora area last week. Mr. Zada's makes four.

Nice that they killed four of the alleged kidnappers within hours but it sadly helped Mr. Zada not at all.

The area is still immensely hazardous. Let us remember, also, that with a seven month head-start, Bajaur remains uncleared and the Bajauri IDPs remain unsettled.

Nearly a full year for them.

Hold the self-congratulatory applause.

It's called a "long war" for a reason and so this shall be.

Hope your people have the stamina because you've not seen anything yet.
 
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Pakistani military is not going anywhere. It will be here to stay and make life miserable for the talibs, one way or the other. This is not about hanging "mission accomplished" banners. It's about keeping the talibs and their allies on the back foot until such a time comes where most popular support ends for them.

I can't say the same for the US military since unlike the US, we only have the option to withdraw a few miles here and there. We will always be in the area and the locals will have to live with that reality.
 
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