why mutiny is so dangerous...

[El Sidd]

Pakistanis vs Pakistanis - what do you expect ?

Would you consider the 1999 event as mutiny or military coup?

 

[ziaulislam]

If you ask bengalis they won't say it was a disaster

It should have been lesson but military decided to repeat exact same thing again

If you ask historians and Pakistanis it was disgrace and a disaster

You won't find such a large surrender in history

Pakistan should have bailed out and given bengalis independence before India stepped in to avoid such a big disgrace or developes nukes as was suggested by ayub Khan close allies whom shrugged it off

 

[Enigma SIG]

Meanwhile at GHQ

https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/12y1mgf

 

[Signalian]

Because of your cryptic style of writing, and my own mental limitations, I've had to read your post several times to figure out what you're trying to say. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that, possibly, you may be one of the good guys. It's just that your methodology for achieving the same objectives may be different. That's good to know.

For my part, I'm blunt in giving my opinions. If I can go on a right-wing American forum and call them savages and invite them to accept Islam, then I'm not afraid of Dirty Harry either. Change can only come if a great number of Pakistanis get to know the reality of things in the country and they'll only know if we talk straight.

You remember that Movie of Robert Redford, The Last Castle ? Military experience of decades put in action to turn tables and achieve an objective.

The terms I mentioned in previous post like civilian based defense" or "social defense", I have read about them but I haven't used or seen them practically, but what's the objective here ?

Raise a New Pakistan Army?
Weaken Pakistan Army ?
Change circumstances so PA intervention in politics dried up completely ?
I am not going to in specific incidents as even though they seem to shape the future sometimes, but they still don't make an impact that carves out the future. Someone or some factor still counters a change.

The psyche of Pakistan Army taking matters into own hands for Pakistan, basically top brass is, that politicians and Government departments do not conduct duties in the interest and benefit of Pakistan. Politicians are also considered a national security threat, especially in some areas like nuclear and strategic weaponry. So military puts itself in the driving seat as the "machinery" (resources) that military possesses is always decades ahead of civil counterparts. When military officers interact with politicians/Government, they see the holes and gaps which have been there since decades and not filled up. True those gaps/holes can be exploited by military and in certain case have been exploited but military also tries fixing them because it has the men and material to do so.

Now, what Pakistan needs a similar setup in civil sector which should take over the duties during any emergency that Pakistan faces, be it political or natural disaster or R&D or construction - basically all sectors in which military is ahead of civil should be surpassed by civil and Government themselves so military requirement diminishes. In political side, the politicians look towards military since one major factor is that ISI is stronger than IB, where as to put it simply, you want to weaken an intel agency ? cut its budget, cut its resources. You want to make stronger ? Increase its budget than its competitor. This is what RAW does against ISI. This is how CIA has spread its tentacles all around the globe. That is the first step.

Another big issue is corruption and how its become part of common culture, so pointing towards military is not pointing towards the root cause. Pakistan's culture in daily life promotes corruption at all levels.
In any part of progress, corruption and development go hand in hand, this needs to stop.

Have you gone ahead and asked PK for instance, how does the top brass think ?
Why are only a few top brass posts relevant but what happens when different Generals are posted on them ?
Different generals because not all carry the same thought process since the command, leadership, academic, training etc backgrounds of all Generals are different, No two are the same at the same post. I have written about their psyche in many threads but PK is most updated, Im not.

A problem can be approached from different directions. I have a technical, an engineering background, but PDF is a playground for head hunters, you can find members from all careers and all backgrounds and walks of life. But the path chosen here is - follow the herd. Follow media blindly. Cursing. Abusing.

That is how Pakistanis are usually. We are not Srilankans, look at their literacy levels.

 

[Goritoes]

No need to worry about Mutiny in Pak bhoojh, because Mutinies or revolution are done by people who have some honor, Pakistan Army has exceeded in their dishonesty and bagairti that there is no honorable man left in the institution, so I am not afraid that they will have any mutiny, is hamaam mai sab nange hai.

 

[Signalian]

Would you consider the 1999 event as mutiny or military coup?

Neither

you may be one of the good guys.

Yar, don't give absolute values of 0 and 1. Good or bad.

90% of the PDF now only highlights negativity about Army, arent they biased too ? Ofcourse they are. They will go to all depths to pick up some sort of negative point even if it isn't there in reality.

But is it a crime if Im portrayed as biased ?
If I tell positive stuff about PA, then why is that wrong. Why isn't it also wrong to talk only negativity about PA. That should be wrong too.

Keep it variable. I have talked about shortcomings of PA, just not the way as PDF members wanted it, well that is not my problem.

As humans we tend to make an image in our mind (good/bad) and then we move ahead, try to go ahead of this factor in your thinking so you can adapt and progress.

 

[El Sidd]

Neither

You disappoint me

 

[Riz]

Somali generals have more courage and guts to say no to the illegal orders of somali military Chief.
Here we have half of dozen morons watching and following the orders of a bastard and helping the 1971 like situation

 

[xyx007]

In the event that Russia were successful in its deployment of a naval base in Sudan, it would disturb the US and western interests. The war between these two generals was necessary for the interests of the Americans in the region to be protected.

Rather than looking at the news from a western media perspective, we all need to understand what type of propaganda is spreading from the western media and where their interests are centered.

 

[Signalian]

You disappoint me

You have joined a long list of people.

Musharraf was a man of flair, style, held grudges, had a big heart but like moj masti a lot and made emotional decisions. NS failed to recognise him. Musharraf was the type of officer who commanded respect and devotion from his officers and troops. He made his presence felt. It was famous about him that he kept grudges in heart and never forgot how others treated him. NS thought Musharraf could be easily sidelined since some officers spoke about kargil as a wrong move, but NS forgot that Musharraf was seen with devotion from his juniors which included corps commanders who stood up for him eventually. Not just that, Army doesn’t allow itself to be played and its decisions made by civilian PM without feedback from COAS on that decision.

In comparison, Kayani was weak if NS would have done the same to him. Background matters, Kiyani was son of JCO, while Musharraf was son of an officer. That confidence from childhood led Musharraf throughout his life.

If NS would have done the same to Bajwa, he would have struck back in similar fashion but wouldn’t have spared NS unlike Musharraf. Bajwa would have damaged NS and his family. But I’m skeptical if Corps Comd would have stood up for him, it’ would have become a debate between DG ISI and Corps Comds.

NS wouldn’t have dared do this to RS coz RS had a dashing personality which outshines Musharraf in terms of decency of way of doing things but with bigger confidence nonetheless. RS didn’t put energies where it wasn’t required but he would get things done with his commanding demeanour. RS wasn’t emotional unlike Musharraf but he dictated his own terms and commanded respect of his Corps Comds.

Asim Munir doesn’t have flair of Musharraf, he isn’t the daring type who can bring flashy changes to Army. He is like a maintenance tech who will keep things moving forward without big risks or going out of line. Unless he is provoked to an extreme, he will kept things going the way they are.

What PA needs is a hard hitting type personality of COAS, who is emotional like Musharraf but commands respect like RS to get things done which benefit Pakistan and Army.
A COAS who burns the Indian side of LOC from Siachen to Sialkot, makes alliances with friendly countries to join Pakistan’s WOT while taking out targets of interest in Afghanistan continually, then puts together a CIA type drone operation across LOC and Duran line in response to unprovoked fire from either side instead of using artillery and snipers, signs defence pacts with China and Turkey to send and receive forces in case war occurs with them or Pakistan and goes on offensive on all fronts (COIN, LOC, Intelligence/proxy wars against India and stops expansion of PA instead expands/promotes PAF and PN expansion and upgradation).

Asim Munir is not going on the offensive, which is disappointing

The reason of PAF and PN expansion is because all the above points I mentioned that COAS should do, can be done by PAF and PN on their own also.

Consider WOT against TTP or BLA. Give Ops green light to PAF in KPK and PN in Baluchistan with increased budget to expand men and material.

PAF starts its sorties of UAVs/UCAVs in KPK with ground forces consisting of (un used and barracked ) SSW. Leave PA completely out while second tier forces are paramilitary for sweep Ops. PAF’s C-130 were converted for ISR and Command/control roles in past too and can be deployed again.

PN uses its transport aircraft to drop SSG(N) and Marines along with its UAVs/UCAVs to take out BLA targets while Baluchistan FC conducts sweeping missions. PN has all advanced sensor and tech on its MPA aircraft’s to locate and target BLA. Completely sideline PA in Baluchistan, let PN carry all Ops.

Similarly, use PAF’s UCAVs to fire at every Indian Army position on LOC in retaliation to fire from Indian side. Discontinue using PA TOW/BS instead use UCAV ATGMs for attacking, EW pods for Jamming and anti jamming on EW aircraft’s and make temporary small air strips behind LOC for drone ops instead of flying drones from Skardu or ABs in KPK.

For all intel ops - enhance operational capability of AI for PAF and NI for PN. Put both these intelligence on par with ISI. Later expand role of PN against India and Iran in the seas and maritime monitoring.

 

[Mentee]

while Musharraf was son of an officer.

His mother was a teacher and father some mid level employee in the civil service, that's what I read and heard . Leadership is innate not genetic however, the environment do play its role. The junta which surrendered enmass in 1971 , almost all of them belonged to the gentry of their time .

 

[IceCold]

The constant pressure formed by a particular political party with insistent calls for mutiny have not been effectively addressed.

Agar apna baap ka ha na to peecha na huttin and show where IK or PTI ever supported Mutiny within the army?

 

[Imran Khan]

Agar apna baap ka ha na to peecha na huttin and show where IK or PTI ever supported Mutiny within the army?

@El Sidd se ap ne ghalat umeed laga di

 

[Trango Towers]

Pakistan and its institutions need to be shaken to the core.
The elder generation are pakistans enemies.

Young clean blood is required. Sooner the old guard dies the better

 

[El Sidd]

You have joined a long list of people.

Musharraf was a man of flair, style, held grudges, had a big heart but like moj masti a lot and made emotional decisions. NS failed to recognise him. Musharraf was the type of officer who commanded respect and devotion from his officers and troops. He made his presence felt. It was famous about him that he kept grudges in heart and never forgot how others treated him. NS thought Musharraf could be easily sidelined since some officers spoke about kargil as a wrong move, but NS forgot that Musharraf was seen with devotion from his juniors which included corps commanders who stood up for him eventually. Not just that, Army doesn’t allow itself to be played and its decisions made by civilian PM without feedback from COAS on that decision.

In comparison, Kayani was weak if NS would have done the same to him. Background matters, Kiyani was son of JCO, while Musharraf was son of an officer. That confidence from childhood led Musharraf throughout his life.

If NS would have done the same to Bajwa, he would have struck back in similar fashion but wouldn’t have spared NS unlike Musharraf. Bajwa would have damaged NS and his family. But I’m skeptical if Corps Comd would have stood up for him, it’ would have become a debate between DG ISI and Corps Comds.

NS wouldn’t have dared do this to RS coz RS had a dashing personality which outshines Musharraf in terms of decency of way of doing things but with bigger confidence nonetheless. RS didn’t put energies where it wasn’t required but he would get things done with his commanding demeanour. RS wasn’t emotional unlike Musharraf but he dictated his own terms and commanded respect of his Corps Comds.

Asim Munir doesn’t have flair of Musharraf, he isn’t the daring type who can bring flashy changes to Army. He is like a maintenance tech who will keep things moving forward without big risks or going out of line. Unless he is provoked to an extreme, he will kept things going the way they are.

What PA needs is a hard hitting type personality of COAS, who is emotional like Musharraf but commands respect like RS to get things done which benefit Pakistan and Army.
A COAS who burns the Indian side of LOC from Siachen to Sialkot, makes alliances with friendly countries to join Pakistan’s WOT while taking out targets of interest in Afghanistan continually, then puts together a CIA type drone operation across LOC and Duran line in response to unprovoked fire from either side instead of using artillery and snipers, signs defence pacts with China and Turkey to send and receive forces in case war occurs with them or Pakistan and goes on offensive on all fronts (COIN, LOC, Intelligence/proxy wars against India and stops expansion of PA instead expands/promotes PAF and PN expansion and upgradation).

Asim Munir is not going on the offensive, which is disappointing

The reason of PAF and PN expansion is because all the above points I mentioned that COAS should do, can be done by PAF and PN on their own also.

Consider WOT against TTP or BLA. Give Ops green light to PAF in KPK and PN in Baluchistan with increased budget to expand men and material.

PAF starts its sorties of UAVs/UCAVs in KPK with ground forces consisting of (un used and barracked ) SSW. Leave PA completely out while second tier forces are paramilitary for sweep Ops. PAF’s C-130 were converted for ISR and Command/control roles in past too and can be deployed again.

PN uses its transport aircraft to drop SSG(N) and Marines along with its UAVs/UCAVs to take out BLA targets while Baluchistan FC conducts sweeping missions. PN has all advanced sensor and tech on its MPA aircraft’s to locate and target BLA. Completely sideline PA in Baluchistan, let PN carry all Ops.

Similarly, use PAF’s UCAVs to fire at every Indian Army position on LOC in retaliation to fire from Indian side. Discontinue using PA TOW/BS instead use UCAV ATGMs for attacking, EW pods for Jamming and anti jamming on EW aircraft’s and make temporary small air strips behind LOC for drone ops instead of flying drones from Skardu or ABs in KPK.

For all intel ops - enhance operational capability of AI for PAF and NI for PN. Put both these intelligence on par with ISI. Later expand role of PN against India and Iran in the seas and maritime monitoring.

1999 was mutiny or coup. It's a simple question.

Agar apna baap ka ha na to peecha na huttin and show where IK or PTI ever supported Mutiny within the army?

Imran’s petition in ‘mutiny case’: IHC removes objections raised by Registrar Office

ISLAMABAD: The Islamabad High Court (IHC) on Tuesday removed the objections raised by the Registrar Office over...

www.brecorder.com

There's a case pending on the very issue. The American university professor was quite clear along with many other PTI leaders on the matter.

It must be a great achievement for your mothers womb to raise a child who would use such language with me.

@El Sidd se ap ne ghalat umeed laga di

Go away drunkard.