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Why Israel won't survive

"the article is first class and not jingoistic at all."

Sure. 1300 dead, easily half combattants is "genocide". Uh-huh...

1300 dead...cWe are talking about the same Hamas that capped Fatah guys in the knees before throwing them off building roofs.

"carpet-bombing"...:lol:

When you live in a city-state next to a powerful neighbor, it's best not to elect a party who's declared purpose and raison d'etre is the destruction of that neighbor. If you do so and that party refuses to acknowledge your neighbor's right to exist and proceeds to carry out it's charter by firing rockets from densely populated areas yet simultaneously seeking protection by holding said citizens hostage to Israeli retaliation (and even INVITING such), you get ABSOLUTELY ALL THAT YOU DESERVE.

Welcome to the obligation of a responsible voter. You assume responsibility for your choice of leaders. There's no surprise here. Hamas has been clear in it's behavior. It's leaders in Damascus mince no words of their intent.

Remove Hamas. Stop firing rockets and recognize Israel's right to exist. Simple. Then do the really hard work of building a nation that does more than prepare it's children for the next intifada.

Genocide, holocaust, carpet-bombing...:disagree:

Foolish nonsense.

So be it. The Gazans have reaped and will continue to reap the whirlwind of their own seeds of destruction.


S-2 I disagree and am actually pretty surprised by your non-objective analysis given that usually your posts have fairly well researched points.

In any case, Israelis are only undermining their own security by such aggressive tactics. Do not expect the Palestinians to pack up and leave in the face of overwhelming military force. They won't! The longer the Israelis use force, the more cracks will appear in the moderate Arab countries which are being used to force this one-sided solution over the Palestinians. Lets see what happens when Mubarak and ilk are dragged around the streets of Cairo because aggressive and dehumanizing tactics are continuously used to choke up the Palestinians stuck in the ghetto of Gaza.

The usual claim of "destruction of Israel at the hands of Hamas" is a theme that the entire US media and Israelis constantly harp about. Nobody has bothered to look at what Hamas' issue is. If they were so hellbent on the destruction of Israel, then why are they open to a pre-67 solution that recognizes Israel's right to exist? Secondly, how can one expect the Palestinians to accept an Israeli solution when its a big, messy, moving target? What the Palestinians have been offered is a shameless mess of a solution. They do not know what the final boundaries of their territory will be because the Israelis have proposed a solution that allows the settlers to reside right in the middle of the Palestinian land and expand here and there as they wish to. The entire territory that has been offered to them is pockmarked with Israeli settlements. Try running a country which is split apart by hostile settlers amidst the territory. It does not work and as such Palestinians have serious and understandable reservations about what they are being offered.

Take a look at the Israelis largess toward the Palestinians since 1948. Can anyone realistically accept this joke? I asked a Texan friend of mine once what he'd do if someone crept over his land like this, he pointed to his rifle and said, "This'll do the talking" :

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/6...andloss8tz.gif

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...ements_416.gif

FT.com / Registration / Sign-up

The proposed Israeli solution, which the US administration backs to the hilt is so full of nonsense, that no less than Zbigniew Brzezinski had to put a check on the usual clueless US media over this point:

msnbc.com Video Player

Also your points about Hamas holding people hostage to said Israeli retaliation is so far removed from reality that it I am baffled by it. Israelis and Egyptians have maintained a choke-hold on the people of Gaza from leaving or entering this ghetto of a strip. The whole point over which Hamas has been lobbing rockets over to Israeli towns is the economic blockade of the strip. Where are these people suppose to go? Israelis have kept them in the area instead of letting them leave and also if they leave, where do they go?

The problem with your argument is that you want the Palestinians, already contracted to the maximum and suffocating in that Gaza ghetto to take whatever Israel offers them (which in reality is not very much and most neutral observers have said the same). I do not see how and why they should accept that. They will die, maybe in the hundreds and then in the thousands, but while doing so they will also ensure that there is no peace in Israel. A solution for peace cannot be forced upon an entire people at the barrel of a gun. Pre-67 is the way forward. That is what will work. Israelis have to deal with their internal politics to work that out, however short of that, I don't foresee peace for either the Palestinians or the Israelis.
 
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Here's what you said-

"You support israel because you are a Jew skunk living in the US??"

Here's what I said in reply-

"You are way out of bounds with your anti-semitism. Rope yourself in or drop out of this discussion. I'm catholic but that doesn't matter if I'm a voodoo doll worshipper."

Here's your response-

"Apology sought."

Here's mine-

:bunny:

A cold day in hell when I'll apologize to you for your poisonous remarks. I'd last about ten seconds here making a comment about a muslim in that tone.
 
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I came across an article about Arab/Israel conflict. Which I am posting for member's perusal. My reasons for this are two:
Firstly it shows how some of the Arab intellectuals feel about the role of Arab Monarchies in the Arab Israel war. Secondly, to point out that there are at least two historical inaccuracies in the article.
King Hussein of Jordan actually returned to Amman just before he died. Only act he performed was to replace his brother Price Hassan bin Talal with his own son. This was seen on TV by many including myself. Therefore incident relating to removal of the Crown Prince Hassan by Madeline Albright is a fabrication mentioned therein is a total lie.

Second lie in the statement that Abdul Aziz Ibne Saud was put in power by the British is incorrect. British had installed Sharif Hussein, a decedent of Imam Hassan (RA) who founded the Hashmite Kingdom and was great grand father of King Hussein of Jordan. House of Saud actually kicked the Hashmite out of Hijaz with the support of the Wahabis.
The article also chooses to ignore to fact that Muslim Brotherhood (Ikhwaan – al Muslimeen) gunned down President Anwar Sadaat during a military parade in front f the whole world, again something I witnessed myself.

I, therefore, have serious doubts about the accuracy of the data quoted by Dr Bakhtiar. I would also like to remind the honorable members that one must search for the truth, no matter how bitter. For example, my insistence that Hitler was an evil person doesn’t mean that I support Israel. Similarly, when I point out inaccuracy in the following article I am in no way supporting Zionists. I simply believe that two wrongs don’t make a right and one must be swayed by the fabricated stories.

Quote
By Dr. ABBAS BAKHTIAR
(Dr. Abbas Bakhtiar lives in Norway. He is a management consultant and a contributing writer for many online journals. He's a former associate
professor of Nordland University, Norway and can be contacted at: Bakhtiarspace-articles@yahoo.no.)
Betrayal is the only truth that sticks- Arthur Miller
The Arab Collaborators
The often asked question, when it comes to the Palestinians, is about the role
of Arab countries in the Palestinian struggle for freedom. The people not
familiar with the political landscape of the area often see the Middle East as
two camps, Arab countries on one side and Israel on the other. The reality is
totally different. Israel has seldom been alone. Beside its usual American,
French, British and other staunch allies, she has had the hidden backing of
several Arab countries.
For close to 30 years now, many Arab countries have been collaborating with
Israel; some like Egypt (gained independence: 1922) and Jordan (gained
independence: 1946) openly, while others like Saudi Arabia (founded: 1932), UAE
(founded: 1972) and Kuwait (founded: 1961) from behind the scenes. The reasons
for this collaboration vary from country to country but
they all have one thing
in common: the rulers of these countries are all dictators and need foreign
protection from their own people. Some such as Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait and
UAE were put in power by the British. The founder of Saudi Arabia, Abdul-Aziz
bin Saud (the kingdom is name after him) was put in power by the British. The
same goes for the others, except Egypt which experienced a coup by the army
officers in 1952, resulting in the ousting of the monarchy and the accompanying
British influence. But the Western influence returned with Anwar Sadat.
All
these countries are dictatorships and
all are under pressure from their people. What they cannot accept is any
democratically elected form of government in their mist. They fear that if an
Arab government becomes democratic they may have to become one themselves, hence
losing power. One of the things that they love about Mahmoud Abbas, the
Palestinian president, is that he won the election not by popular vote but by
popular method of rigging the election; something that these Arab leaders
understand and respect.
In contrast, Hamas really represented the aspiration of the people. As soon as
Mahmood Abbas’ term as president is over and he had to stand for re-election,
he would surely lose. In contrast, Hamas really won the
municipal elections in
2005 and the Parliamentary election in 2006. The elections were supervised by
international observers, many from Europe, and US.
Palestinians were fed-up with the corrupt regime of Mahmoud Abbas and Fatah.
They wanted to clean house. But as soon as Hamas took over, the US and the
Europeans put an embargo on Hamas, calling it a terrorist organisation and not a
peace partner. Israel closed the borders and refused to let anything into Gaza.
Egypt also did the same.
What is not mentioned much in the media is that this was done with the complete
approval of the Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan. After all, Egypt could have
opened its border for transfer of food and fuel. The reasons behind this
hostility were and are that Hamas is a truly elected government and worst of
all, Hamas is a branch or an off-shoot of Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt.
Muslim Brotherhood has a branch or related organisation in Jordan as well.
Egypt and Jordan are worried that should Hamas survive and show its resistance,
their people may get the idea that they can also resist the tyrannical rule of
these despots. One must not forget that Muslim Brotherhood represents the only
serious challenge to the Mubarak’s rule in Egypt.
Egypt
The 81 year old Hosni Mubarak of Egypt has been “president” since 1981 (28
years). He has won every election with a comfortable majority. He is much loved
by his secret services. Prior
to every election he arrests and imprisons all the
opposition, ensuring a “clean” election. Torture is so widely used and
accepted in Egypt that US outsources torturing of some its prisoners to Egypt.
This alone should tell you volumes about the nature of Mubarak’s rule. He is
now trying hard to crown his playboy son as his successor. But the Americans are not so sure if the son is capable of keeping the 80 million Egyptians in line
and are therefore looking for alternative candidates. The head of the feared
main secret service is one of the prime candidates
along with some of the top
generals. Challenging him is the Muslim Brotherhood organisation, enjoying grass
root support from all sections of the Egyptian society including Lawyers,
doctors, judges and
student associations. Not surprisingly, US and Israel call Muslim Brotherhood
a terrorist organisation.
By all accounts, the Muslim Brotherhood be it in Jordan, Egypt or the occupied
territories such as Gaza runs a clean operation, running many charity
organisations and providing services to the poor and the needy. As such wherever
they are, they pose a threat to the corrupt regimes, since they provide an
alternative to the people of that area.
Jordan
King Abdullah II of Jordan, born of a British mother, educated in the West,
including the Jesuit Center of Georgetown University, was brought to power by
the CIA. His Uncle was a long time crown price, yet after his father died in a
US hospital, Madeline Albright, Clinton’s Secretary of Estate flew to Jordan
to inform the Jordanians that the King on his death bed had changed his will and
named his son Abdullah as his successor. The new king Abdullah II is married to
the Queen
Rania, a Palestinian.
The majority of this Kingdom of 5 million people are Palestinians who are not
very friendly to this King. In 1967 there was a Palestinian uprising (led by the
PLO) against King Hussein (ruled: 1952-1999, the father of the current king),
which resulted in heavy casualties among Palestinians. In addition, the Kingdom
is currently full of Iraqi refugees who resent the King’s help to the
Americans in invasion of their country. On top of all this, we have the Muslim
Brotherhood which tries hard to abolish the monarchy. King Abdullah
relies
heavily on the US support and backing for staying in power. King Abdullah also
sees a natural ally in Israel, a country that can come to its aid in case of
another uprising.
Saudi Arabia (House of Saud)
I don’t have to tell you much about Saudi Arabia. The Kingdom is run by the
84 year old, ailing Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz Al Saud. His personal wealth is
estimated at $21 billion
USD. He rules a clan of 8000 princes who in turn rule
the country. Saudi Arabia is the centre of corruption in the Arab world. The
Saudi rulers corrupt everything with their money. Lacking the necessary mental
power or physical courage, they try to stay in power by subterfuge, lies, and
deception. They fund the real extremists on the one hand while portraying
themselves as the protectors of the Western interest on the other. They preach
intolerance and xenophobia to their people decrying the Western decadence, while
spending a lot of time enjoying the life in
the West. They pay the West for
protection against their own people and they pay the extremists to do their
fighting elsewhere. Saudi rulers are indeed the worst of them all.
House of Saud is also the financier of the so called Arab Moderates and the
extremism that they cause. House of Saud financed the Mujahedeen in Afghanistan
to fight the Soviets. They later financed the Taliban. They also paid Saddam
Hussein to fight Iran. Then they paid the Americans and Egyptians to fight
Saddam Hussein. They are the financiers of death and misery. They
finance
anything, anywhere, as long as this reduces the threat to their illegitimate
rule. They are currently financing the civil war in Somalia, bandits in
Baluchistan (Pakistan and Iran) and god knows what else. They are detested by
their own people and neighbours yet loved by Bush, Cheney and the oil companies.
As long as they provide the money and oil the US is willing to tolerate them.
And guess what? The Muslim Brotherhood hates the House of Saud too. This makes
them a threat and hence they have to be dealt with.
The Collaboration
As can be seen, each country has a selfish reason to eliminate Hamas, but each
is restrained by its population. Israel has no such a restraint imposed on it.
She not only can wage a
terrible war, but she also gets assistance from Arab
countries. Indeed it is the second time (the first was the invasion of Lebanon
in 2006) that Israel is getting open and solid support from these Arab
countries. The invasion of Gaza was discussed in Egypt before its
implementation. Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia are Israel’s active partners.
Egypt is actively involved in stopping all aids from getting to Palestinians in
Gaza save a token few trucks. These few trucks are allowed to go through so
they
can be filmed and shown to Egyptian people. All demonstrations are banned, and
all Egyptian volunteers for Gaza are either arrested or sent back.
There are hundreds of thousands of volunteers across the Muslim world that are
willing to go to the aid of the Palestinians, but the Egyptian authorities
don’t allow them passage. Egyptians even stop medical aid from passing through
their territory. This is part of a report from Associated Press:
RAFAH, Egypt: Frustration is mounting at Egypt’s border with the Gaza
Strip, where many local and foreign doctors are stuck after Egyptian authorities
denied them entry into the coastal area now under an Israeli ground invasion.
Anesthesiologist Dimitrios Mognie from Greece idles his time at a cafe near
the border, drinking tea and chatting with other doctors, aid workers and
curious Egyptians.
“This is a shame,” said Mognie, who decided to use his vacation time to
try help Gazans. He thought entering through Egypt, which has a narrow border
with the Hamas-ruled strip, was his best bet.
“That in 2009 they have people in need of help from a doctor and we can
go to help and they won’t let us. This is crazy,” he added.5
In addition there are many Iranian
cargo planes full of food and medicine which
have been sitting on the tarmacs in Egypt for days waiting for permission to
deliver their cargo. Egyptians even denied the medical aid sent by the son of
the Libyan President Qaddafi to land in Egypt.6
One thing is clear: these three countries do not want the Israelis to fail in
their mission of totally destroying Gaza. Hosni Mubarak said so himself. The
daily Haaretz reported that Hosni Mubarak had told European ministers on a peace
mission that Hamas must not be allowed to win the ongoing war in Gaza.
As Egypt physically aids the Israeli military by denying food, fuel and
medicine to the civilians, the House of Saud helps Israel by giving her time and
diplomatic cover. When Israel started its invasion there was an immediate call
for an Arab summit. Saudi Arabia and Jordan (along with Egypt of course) delayed
the summit. The Saudis along with the UAE said that they had another meeting to
attend to and therefore Palestinian issue had to wait. After a few days when the
summit was eventually held, they issued the same old statements. Yet this time
same as the Israel’s invasion of Lebanon in 2006, they blamed the victims. In
a statement, Saudi Arabia blamed Hamas for Israel’s continuing offensive in
the Gaza Strip. Saudi Arabia, after blaming Hamas, declared that it will not
even consider an oil embargo on Israel’s supporters. She then again blamed
Hamas.
By this time, the three Arab countries along with Kuwait and UAE began singing
the old song: international community is not doing anything about the
catastrophe that is taking place in Gaza. It seems that these Arab tyrants have
no shame at all. This reminds me of a quote from Marquis De Sade (1740-1814):
“One is never so dangerous when one has no shame, than when one has grown too
old to blush.”
These Arab leaders (many are indeed too old to blush) are complicit in the
murder of so many civilians, especially young children. According to Agence
France-Presse, quoting the medics on the ground, fully one third of all people
killed have
been children.7 How can these Arab leaders justify this to their
people?
The answer is that they cannot. Israel knows this and for the second time can
show the Arab street that their leaders are nothing but a bunch of old
hypocrites. These Arab leaders are now exposed and can do nothing but to
cooperate fully with Israel and US. What stand between them and their people’s
rage is their army and secret services; which in turn are supported by US.
Israel has cleverly exposed these leaders for what they are: collaborators of
the worst kind. These Arab leaders have brought an unimaginable shame to their
people.
To quote Lucien Bouchard: I have never known a more vulgar expression of
betrayal and deceit. Our hope is now with the people of these countries to clean
this stain from their honour.
1. ABC News Norway. “Røde Kors sjokkert over Israel,” (Red Cross Shocked by Israel), 8 January 2009.
2. Aljazeera.net. “UN: No fighters in targeted school,” 8 January
2009.
3. Aljazeera.net. “Israel fires on UN Gaza convoy,” 8 January 2009.
4. nytimes.com. “For Israel, 2006 Lessons but Old Pitfalls,” 7 January 2009.
5. The Associated Press. “Doctors stuck at bottleneck on Egypt-Gaza border,” 6 January 2009.
6. google.com: hosted news. “Egypt denies Kadhafi’s son permission to land at airport,” 6 January 2009.
7. Agence France-Presse. “Children make up third of Gaza dead,” 7 January 2009.
Dr. Abbas Bakhtiar lives in Norway. He is a management consultant and a contributing writer for many online journals. He's a former associate
professor of Nordland University, Norway and can be contacted at: Bakhtiarspace-articles@yahoo.no.

Unquote.
 
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Hamas hasn't renounced it's charter and views a return to pre-1967 borders as conditional as it doesn't renounce it's claims to ALL of Palestine. That, of course, includes Israel.

A ten year truce, I believe.

Ain't happening with them under those terms. Doesn't affirm Israel's right to exist. As such, Hamas makes the worst possible bed-partners.

That's Hamas.

Blain2, I watched my first war in June 1967. I've been watching this for awhile now. As such, I've a bit of perspective.

That said, thanks for the Ziggy comments. I note that he sees the possibility of these sides reaching accomodation on their own as impossible. To paraphrase Z.B.- "...if we've learned anything at all over the last thirty years...".

As you can see from above, I'd concur with his view.

I also note the WAPO paper used as a prop. Side by side in separate photos, an Israeli and Palestinian women are grieving their losses. It is not without intent that 7,000 rockets have been fired into Israel since 2005 by Hamas alone. That doesn't include POG's considerable contribution. It is only Hamas and POG's inability to accurately target even the most broadly defined targets with any predictability that's saved countless hundreds to thousands more.

I note that Z.B. feels this war has been the result of Hamas provocation. Again, I'd concur.

"The usual claim of "destruction of Israel at the hands of Hamas" is a theme that the entire US media and Israelis constantly harp about."

It's a concern. Fair to say, they destroyed Fatah in Gaza and they're muslim. "Destroyed", btw, might itself be gentle.

"It does not work and as such Palestinians have serious and understandable reservations about what they are being offered."

Do we have a single palestinian representative body any longer? I don't think so. There seems, if you'll pardon me, a West Palestine and an East Palestine nominally-bad enough but true to your notion of a divisive unity or, worse, a Hamastan and Fatahstan-divided geographically and politically.

Do shias from the west bank that must move to Gaza have a right of return when this is all settled?:lol:

It's intractable as currently configured. Wrong leaders at the right time to assure nothing. Some thoughts...
 
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Do we have a single palestinian representative body any longer?

But we do have a single representative Israeli body, whose own contribution to the violence through a refusal to even in principle accept the pre-1967 conditions as mandated by the UN and accepted in principle by various Palestinian power centers -, is undeniable. Equally undeniable is the steady encroachment upon Palestinian land through settlements by this 'single representative body'.

If the argument is that Israel alone is a responsible and sincere party for peace, then it definitely is not reflected in the actions of this 'single, democratically elected representative body' - and this point, of Israel's deliberate contributions to ensuring a lack of peace, is deliberately obfuscated by supporters of Israel.
 
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Israelis speak out about the right to freedom:

Arrogance of the settlers filmed by British news media - This is what the Palestinian old, women and youth are faced with:

 
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Let me conclude this,
Your dream of making israel the Center of Gravity of this World will never come true!

On the other hand you can enjoy killing innocents, children and women and keep mongering about your human values.

BTW we already knew a dog 'inside' America is more precious then a human outside America.(the outside don't include, israel, EU and Japan)
 
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"But we do have a single representative Israeli body, whose own contribution to the violence through a refusal to even in principle accept the pre-1967 conditions as mandated by the UN and accepted in principle by various Palestinian power centers -, is undeniable."

We've seen agreements that presented Palestine with 97% to include E. Jerusalem and a contigious state rejected for the intifada. I've indicated Israel's ability to find and keep accord with it's neighboring states, Jordan and Egypt.

What Israel doesn't and hasn't had is a coherant and mature palestinian leadership as a partner. Both Fatah and Hamas have been exploitive for personal and political gain of foreign interlopers since Fatah's inception in 1964. It continues today though Fatah is now working desperately to reverse their reputation within the west bank (while purging all remnants of shia Hamas wherever found).

Pre-1967 borders would have to include an explicit recognition of right to exist and an assurance that Israel's jewish character will be maintained. That won't likely happen for a variety of reasons but those ambitions are critical to Israel's sense of security and remain irreconcilable with the Palestinians.
 
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Some interesting contrasts from the far edges of the debate.

Thanks.
 
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"But we do have a single representative Israeli body, whose own contribution to the violence through a refusal to even in principle accept the pre-1967 conditions as mandated by the UN and accepted in principle by various Palestinian power centers -, is undeniable."

We've seen agreements that presented Palestine with 97% to include E. Jerusalem and a contigious state rejected for the intifada. I've indicated Israel's ability to find and keep accord with it's neighboring states, Jordan and Egypt.

What Israel doesn't and hasn't had is a coherant and mature palestinian leadership as a partner. Both Fatah and Hamas have been exploitive for personal and political gain of foreign interlopers since Fatah's inception in 1964. It continues today though Fatah is now working desperately to reverse their reputation within the west bank (while purging all remnants of shia Hamas wherever found).

Pre-1967 borders would have to include an explicit recognition of right to exist and an assurance that Israel's jewish character will be maintained. That won't likely happen for a variety of reasons but those ambitions are critical to Israel's sense of security and remain irreconcilable with the Palestinians.

Shia Hamas?? What is that based on? Pre-67 is inclusive exactly of "recognition of right to exist and an assurance that Israel's jewish character will be maintained". As to how the Israeli Arab minority is handled inside of Israel is the problem that Israelis have to sort out. The right to return for the refugees will be rolled back on if the Israelis go back to the pre-67 border. This would mean that Jerusalem becomes an open city. However the problem is that the Christian right in the US may never allow the Israelis to take this step regardless of how pragmatic it is.
 
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"Shia Hamas?? What is that based on?"

Not the local demographics. The grand scale influence-peddling. Sorry. Reads poorly.

"The right to return for the refugees will be rolled back on if the Israelis go back to the pre-67 border."

Explain please? I don't understand the phrasing "...rolled back on...".
 
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