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Why is IMF blaming previous Govts for current economic situation in Pakistan.

Now look at India they have a huge debt and they tell their population that no debt is good because of their high GDP but in actual IMF it's self said Indian GDP is not that big as told and all Indian forex are made from FDI and loans. If tomorrow India economic bubble burst the country will intiate the worst ever recession.

Just utterly clueless you are....and lying on top. Keep at it.

Tell me is indian market cap lying too? (The one you post constantly when it takes a little blip).

You are one I will enjoy watch moaning as this reality hits you now....and deflecting to all kinds of theories and conspiracy nonsense. This unfolding reality is tailor made for you to at least learn some stuff hopefully.

@Nilgiri Any thoughts on the Argentinian "solution" please.

For Pakistan? Default is not good idea, because the GDP, wealth and export levels per capita are way lower. Also it doesnt mean you dont have to pay back....you just are on a longer time fuse for it...dependent on when you want to return to the system and improve your credit rating etc again (unless you want to segregate forever from international financial system like say North Korea mostly has...and that comes with its own consequences too).

Argentina was terribly mismanaged to get to where it did....so in a way they could default (and did completely once in 2001, and partially again after kirchner lady I believe) just to see if its any worse than the IMF cyclical stuff and continuing govt nonsense. Their bailout (last year under the new admin) recently for example come to tune of 50 billion USD from IMF for a reason.....they do have fundamentals backing it (past the terrible govt policy over decades that led to it)....and obviously the massive controls the previous admin put in were wreaking havoc on what the argentine populace wanted. Their ease of doing business rank was lot worse than many low income countries at one point I remember.

Pakistan is currently in far better shape and can pull out of it.

Yeah having the same forex level as Nepal (25 million people, far lower income than you) definitely is great shape. Much success.
 
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I still not quite sure what you mean, but I can say that Pakistan doesn't really tax the energy sector at all. In fact, the energy sector is quite subsidized, and unjustifiable so, as the reason why those subsidizes existed was to encourage economic growth, through increased industrial output, but that has not materialized at all.

I think he's talking about petrol, diesel, furnace oil and kerosene. These are taxed and the government gets a lot of money from that. However, overall prices are lower than neighbouring countries because PTI hasn't passed on the full impact of price rises.

If you mean electricity and gas sector then, yes, that's still subsidized.
 
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Just utterly clueless you are....and lying on top. Keep at it.

Tell me is indian market cap lying too? (The one you post constantly when it takes a little blip).

You are one I will enjoy watch moaning as this reality hits you now....and deflecting to all kinds of theories and conspiracy nonsense. This unfolding reality is tailor made for you to at least learn some stuff hopefully.



For Pakistan? Default is not good idea, because the GDP, wealth and export levels per capita are way lower. Also it doesnt mean you dont have to pay back....you just are on a longer time fuse for it...dependent on when you want to return to the system and improve your credit rating etc again (unless you want to segregate forever from international financial system like say North Korea mostly has...and that comes with its own consequences too).

Argentina was terribly mismanaged to get to where it did....so in a way they could default (and did completely once in 2001, and partially again after kirchner lady I believe) just to see if its any worse than the IMF cyclical stuff and continuing govt nonsense. Their bailout (last year under the new admin) recently for example come to tune of 50 billion USD from IMF for a reason.....they do have fundamentals backing it (past the terrible govt policy over decades that led to it)....and obviously the massive controls the previous admin put in were wreaking havoc on what the argentine populace wanted. Their ease of doing business rank was lot worse than many low income countries at one point I remember.



Yeah having the same forex level as Nepal (25 million people, far lower development than you) definitely is great shape. Much success.

Lol Indian market cap. Your whole Indian financial data is a scam. From IMF to world Bank to your own politicians have said it. If I am a liar then why a country with $400 billion reserves is having agrigrain crisis and why are all those Farmers in turmoil? My friend the reality is that agriculture is the business done by most population in your country and that population is suffering. You can show me the boom and gloom of ambanis and Tata but you the common India is not them and you the common Indian is hungry and suffering. The production cost for crops have gone so much high in India that you cannot export anything without govt subsidy and common man is not earning any thing in India.

If I am wrong there is a website Modilies.in which has collection of all the lies in India go read them.


India is a debt trapped country look at Indian loans it is a mountain and your fake GDP data bluff has been called out. India has to act as a US vessel state or doom awaits you.

Thank God Pakistan has a leader who is sacrificing our growth to reduce deficit. IK has opted for political sucide but he is addressing the core problem of our economy. We will suffer a year or 2 but in the end we will get out on top.

Modi sold India to foreigners. Gandhi took India out of slavery of West. Modi pushed it back into slavery of west. That is why BJP is against Gandhi because BJP hates freedom in India.

BJP is openly calling the killer of Gandhi deshbakth lol and you are teaching me economic here lol. Look at it my friend they are drowning your whole nation and it's ideology. BJP was and is a western puppet and will remain so for ever. They hate what you did to British in 1947.

 
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Your whole Indian financial data is a scam.

Wow so woke! The 155 billion FDI stock invested outside of India (reported by others) is a scam too? The 500 billion dollar trade (again reported by 3rd party countries) is a scam too? How far does this go? What are these levels for Pakistan so we can try correlate a bit?...according to your "far better shape"?

From IMF to world Bank to your own politicians have said it.

Lets see where IMF and World Bank said stuff like that about any SDDS country....much less India.

Selectively picking politicians are a gold standard on truth now? LOL. I guess the US is doomed then too....coz some politicians inside it said so and that the US is lying about "figures". We should listen to only what PMLN and PPP politicians are saying now about pakistan too?

If I am a liar

There is no if in that statement.

then why a country with $400 billion reserves

Why would need you to understand what foreign reserves even are, how they form and what their purpose is. Heres a basic idea: no they cannot be spent internally to address some shortfall of whatever....without major consequence. There is a reason they are called foreign reserves and not internal reserves.

But then again you seem to be one of that doesnt know basic economics 101...but loudly just thinks he does. Its quite amusing in the end.
 
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Wow so woke! The 155 billion FDI stock invested outside of India (reported by others) is a scam too? The 500 billion dollar trade (again reported by 3rd party countries) is a scam too? How far does this go? What are these levels for Pakistan so we can try correlate a bit?...according to your "far better shape"?



Lets see where IMF and World Bank said stuff like that about any SDDS country....much less India.

Selectively picking politicians are a gold standard on truth now? LOL. I guess the US is doomed then too....coz some politicians inside it said so and that the US is lying about "figures". We should listen to only what PMLN and PPP politicians are saying now about pakistan too?



There is no if in that statement.



Why would need you to understand what foreign reserves even are, how they form and what their purpose is. Heres a basic idea: no they cannot be spent internally to address some shortfall of whatever....without major consequence. There is a reason they are called foreign reserves and not internal reserves.

But then again you seem to be one of that doesnt know basic economics 101...but loudly just thinks he does. Its quite amusing in the end.

So from the whole passage I wrote. You read it and you chose the few words of you liking and ignore the rest because you had no answer for it. Thanks for accepting those problem by not replying to them. This shows you are not blind in heart but you are here to show positive image of your country. I respect your belief in marketing good Indian image. Rise and shine fake India. I have nothing more to say to you. You have chose to go blind and deaf. There is no hope for India the nation is doomed back into slavery. Keep living in the fake data of GDP world. Which even IMF told you is fake. Lol
 
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So from the whole passage I wrote. You read it and you chose the few words of you liking and ignore the rest because you had no answer for it. Thanks for accepting those problem by not replying to them. This shows you are not blind in heart but you are here to show positive image of your country. I respect your belief in marketing good Indian image. Rise and shine fake India. I have nothing more to say to you. You have chose to go blind and deaf. There is no hope for India the nation is doomed back into slavery. Keep living in the fake data of GDP world. Which even IMF told you is fake. Lol

Its getting off topic and I already asked for evidence of what you claim from IMF and WB. But you cannot provide.

If you want to progress purely to economic indicators that are measured fully/confirmed by those outside the countries (since assertion is internally we can claim counter claim and not convince)...regarding trade, investment, liquidity flow etc (to gauge relative size of the two economies by that)....be my guest. But start another topic.

Or will you say everyone else outside India and Pakistan is in on the conspiracy too?
 
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Its getting off topic and I already asked for evidence of what you claim from IMF and WB. But you cannot provide.

If you want to progress purely to economic indicators that are measured fully/confirmed by those outside the countries (since assertion is internally we can claim counter claim and not convince)...regarding trade, investment, liquidity flow etc (to gauge relative size of the two economies by that)....be my guest. But start another topic.

Or will you say everyone else outside India and Pakistan is in on the conspiracy too?

So speaking against IMF and Indian GDP is a conspiracy? Any argument that don't favors you is conspiracy?

Okay let me make it simple for you. You have said multiple times that Pakistan is in Chinese debt trap. Now Chinese debt over Pakistan is 10% of total debt and rest of the debt belongs to IMF and western institution so if Pakistan is in some kind of debt trap then is 10% a debt trap or 90% a debt trap?

Now Pakistan has a debt of $73 billion but where as India has a debt of $650 billion so which country is in debt trap?

Try solving this riddle with your sense less logic.

And when it come to pay debt please remember that your currency is not world's reserve currency you will have to pay them what the consider as currency. India is not a super power so you do what ever don't matter to your master.
 
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So speaking against IMF and Indian GDP is a conspiracy?

Your basic lack of understanding leading to making silly assertions emotionally (or wherever you get this nonsense from) is the hallmark of every conspiracy process.

If I offer you full 3rd party analysis purely (i.e recorded by outside entities only) to start a base comparison....what does it tell anyone when you shy away as usual? Tell me what is the FDI stock of Pakistan outside its borders? Did Pakistan fake its own sordid GFCF numbers too that got it into this mess? Any of this even mean anything to you?

You have said multiple times that Pakistan is in Chinese debt trap.

Really? Quote me one time where I said debt trap (of Chinese doing). I have always said let it play out regarding CPEC. Pakistan debt pressure now is from more general global debt it took. Even then I don't like to use "trap" since lets see if anything different this time. It will likely be in a trap (of own doing yet again) if Pakistan cannot increase its GFCF sustainably in this period of years under I.K admin.

Now Chinese debt over Pakistan is 10% of total debt and rest of the debt belongs to IMF and western institution so if Pakistan is in some kind of debt trap then is 10% a debt trap or 90% a debt trap?

These people force you to take their money in a loan? You realise how ridiculous you sound?

Chinese add more stringent conditions to make more guaranteed return...so there is more likelihood of a debt trap long term coming from their end for you.

Did IMF or anyone else tell you you HAVE to use the loans you took to prop up the PKR artificially (as a consumption subsidy essentially) rather than use it to put into GFCF to even try invest yourself out of such an inevitable oligarch bubble?

Now Pakistan has a debt of $73 billion but where as India has a debt of $650 billion so which country is in debt trap?

Where you even getting your numbers is beyond me...

http://datatopics.worldbank.org/debt/ids/country/IND

http://datatopics.worldbank.org/debt/ids/country/PAK

513 billion USD for India, 84.5 billion USD for Pakistan. (2017)

GNI debt ratio is 20% and 26% respectively. Problem is this can be susceptible to GDP tabulation of inflation etc.

If we look at exports wise...India ratio is 101% but Pakistan ratio was around 286% in 2017.

When we look at more recent timeframe (which IDS has not updated yet):

https://tradingeconomics.com/india/external-debt

https://tradingeconomics.com/pakistan/external-debt

520 billion USD for India, 100 billion for Pakistan as of january 2019.

Using 2019 IMF estimate for GDP base:

https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/f...=country&ds=.&br=1&c=564,534&s=NGDPD&grp=0&a=

thats ratio of:

520/2970 = 18% for India (from 20% cpl years back)

99/278 = 36% for Pakistan (from 26% cpl years back)

Noticing a problem here yet?

How about for exports?

Most recent 12 month period for both:

https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/india/total-exports

https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/pakistan/total-exports

https://www.ceicdata.com/en/india/international-trade-in-services

http://www.sbp.org.pk/publications/export/index.htm

India comes to total exports of 330 + 205 = 535 billion USD

Pakistan total exports around 30 billion.

This is debt - export ratios of:

520/535 = 97% for India (from 101% 2 years ago)

99/30 = 330% for Pakistan (from 286% 2 years ago)

Then factor in the credit rating of the two countries (BBB vs B) and anyone can judge the relative external debt trap here.

Internal debt (owed in local currency) is highly correlated to market cap of the country (ability to borrow from local sources). You want that analysis next?
 
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Pakistan has all the problems which you have mentioned I agree and due to all these problems we went to imf in the first place. Now the question still remains we went to imf for these problem and now we have one additional problem of debt because of IMF. So have our problems reduced or grown because of IMF?

I am not talking in context to current loan I know we need it but I am talking in general context.

IMF-LOANS-SDR-2.jpg
If the recommended reforms were inplemented by Pakistan, you and I wouldn't be talking about Pakistan's debt to the IMF right now. The previous governments have all failed to implement recommended reforms, which is why Pakistan's economy is terrible right now.

You'll notice, whenever imf policies were starting to be implemented, the economy stabilized, but the government in charge backed out in the middle of implementation, due to political games, rather than a genuine concern for Pakistan's economy health.

@Nilgiri @BHarwana guys, calm down. We're having a civil discussion. Nothing we say on here really matters, and won't have an impact on the government of our respective nations (Canada, Pakistan, or India).

Take it easy. If you disagree with each other, that's fine, but let's all get along, because at the end of the day, we're all little guys getting screwed by our elitist governments.
 
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If the recommended reforms were inplemented by Pakistan, you and I wouldn't be talking about Pakistan's debt to the IMF right now. The previous governments have all failed to implement recommended reforms, which is why Pakistan's economy is terrible right now.

You'll notice, whenever imf policies were starting to be implemented, the economy stabilized, but the government in charge backed out in the middle of implementation, due to political games, rather than a genuine concern for Pakistan's economy health.

In start IMF programs in Pakistan were of a year and then they started to go long term. Now about reforms. Reforms have been implented or not is a different issue that we will discuss later first tell me what the core problem with Pakistan's evonomy?
 
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For Pakistan? Default is not good idea, because the GDP, wealth and export levels per capita are way lower. Also it doesnt mean you dont have to pay back....you just are on a longer time fuse for it...dependent on when you want to return to the system and improve your credit rating etc again (unless you want to segregate forever from international financial system like say North Korea mostly has...and that comes with its own consequences too).

People were offended on PDF when I drew parallels between Pakistan and North Korea previously, so I will do not again. That may be where we are headed anyway in a few years.
 
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If the recommended reforms were inplemented by Pakistan, you and I wouldn't be talking about Pakistan's debt to the IMF right now. The previous governments have all failed to implement recommended reforms, which is why Pakistan's economy is terrible right now.

You'll notice, whenever imf policies were starting to be implemented, the economy stabilized, but the government in charge backed out in the middle of implementation, due to political games, rather than a genuine concern for Pakistan's economy health.

@Nilgiri @BHarwana guys, calm down. We're having a civil discussion. Nothing we say on here really matters, and won't have an impact on the government of our respective nations (Canada, Pakistan, or India).

Take it easy. If you disagree with each other, that's fine, but let's all get along, because at the end of the day, we're all little guys getting screwed by our elitist governments.

We (me and bharwana) get heated its true....because we clash more broadly in other threads when I question his assertions of A = B as being actually A = A when it comes to economics in general.

I just think there is enough threads on Indian economy and its own set of problems/credibility already...no need to drag into thread like this about Pakistan set of problems that have now metastasized into its broader foreign exchange/financial sector (which is on whole different level of intensity to do compared to purely internal debates/issues)...and will need a massive course change against the (low investment rate) inertia of status quo running it for decades now.

The belt must be tightened (a lot, as much needed to pay back the loans coming up and not go back to same ole same ole after it and start whole thing again....but persevere and actually get something out of it - i.e investment/savings culture).

Pakistan needs to stop just eating too much (for its frame) and get up from table and start producing things of note with the hammer and pen at the workspace...needs to be leaner and meaner even if it means you have withdrawal symptoms from the earlier easy street buffet....you get out what you put in. Put in excuses and conspiracies, thats what you get out too.

Rather it must balance at least 10 - 20% more (on top of the 15% it generally stuck at) of the time/effort/resources (which all manifest as the final GDP-liquidity denominators) it uses to just buy and consume stuff into investing/saving (long term stuff that gets you out of a rut)...and improving the institutions that are all related to it.

This investing must also be as much focused on production units as possible (within existing environment/buffer)....not grandiose infra logistics projects which seem to be where CPEC priority is. That stuff can happen more generally on its time and pace (esp after you get the buffers and stabilisation from the immediate production of your factories to reinvest into networking and branching more deeply into the country).....but focus has to be investment into hard production units using whatever labour/business acumen on offer inside Pakistan right now....not pie in the sky miracle projections of later.

The whole order of this build the large infra first and then everything comes later automatically....will benefit the ones (on all sides for whatever reason) providing that narrative. The way to check if that narrative is actually true, is see what the main infra-loan-provider did that same thing for himself in his case. You will find he didn't....it has always been production unit investment first (and the very basic infra needed to keep it just functional) and then the larger scale stuff with time when you earned enough for say a decade or two. The economy of scale factories (to generate foreign exchange by export) all hugged the coastline of China initially for a good chunk of years for a reason...china didnt have the infra back then to have such factories in its interior and have them competitive. That all came very much later after stage 1 (Deng xiao peng stage i call it) was in operation for good amount of time first.

Even with its human capital investment as low as it is and lousy framework and bureaucracy.....Pakistan can still do lot lot lot better if it focuses on investment related to direct basic (forex generating) production in short term (just learn from Bangladesh as much you can for that)....by taxing its consumption however it needs to and ensuring as much gets to investment as possible into basic industries that are opening up competitively now as China leaves them behind etc. Intent/goal of this current admin must be to at least to never again have a BoP crisis again like this at the very least (and all the long term damage that does to having the argument for a democratic system over an autocratic one and institutional preferences governing that).

It is approaching do or die kind of stage because of all the buses Pakistan missed or even refused to board have taken their relative toll (w.r.t world situation where many did board those buses.... compared to Pakistan) It must balance itself structurally and not miss any more.

People were offended on PDF when I drew parallels between Pakistan and North Korea previously, so I will do not again. That may be where we are headed anyway in a few years.

Pakistan has a vast amount of emigrant + Pak origin people in important Tier - 1 economies (Especially the two big english speaking ones). It is very different to North Korea case which is truly a hermit kingdom.....in the context of how any Pakistani leader/movement potential to just cut off completely.

Up till roughly the 90s, Pakistan was doing lot better than the developing world average so there is much inertia from that still...though it glaringly sacrificed lot of institutional development in those better years. But now there has been really crap drift for 30 years....

So I don't see it headed to north korea kind of thing. There is huge amount of remittance for example in Pakistan case that help it to finance its consumption mismatch in foreign sector. Just even accounting for that the CAD worsened to 5% and even more for good chunk of years....and this prompted over time (like a wind never dissipating) exposure of the rickety structure of kicking the can (i.e take a loan and use to prop up consumption strength of PKR artificially) to satisfy oligarchs status quo. The foliage they invested in covering this all up (at least the basic process) has almost entirely blown away...it simply cannot be denied anymore....what remains to be seen is how many of the people (at all levels) see this and do something....or just play emperor news clothes kind of charade still.
 
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Pakistan should not pay a single money back to IMF since all these corrupt politicians like Nawaz shareef and zardari have parked their ill gotten wealth the looted wealth from Pakistan in western countries who r major shareholders of IMF and if they want their money back they can just confiscate that wealth and auction it

Lol, we, Pakistanis, are so used to of disobeying, that your post didn't surprise me...no offense. Internationally things doesn't work this way. Pakistan does that and then get dragged in international courts, and instead paying most likely 3 times what it should pay now. Plus the reputation, nobody is going to lend you money after this.

Besides, who elected those leaders? I bet after a decade Pakistanis will be blaming "army" of installing IK govt. There is always a bogeyman.
 
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Pakistan has a vast amount of emigrant + Pak origin people in important Tier - 1 economies (Especially the two big english speaking ones). It is very different to North Korea case which is truly a hermit kingdom.....in the context of how any Pakistani leader/movement potential to just cut off completely.

Up till roughly the 90s, Pakistan was doing lot better than the developing world average so there is much inertia from that still...though it glaringly sacrificed lot of institutional development in those better years. But now there has been really crap drift for 30 years....

So I don't see it headed to north korea kind of thing. There is huge amount of remittance for example in Pakistan case that help it to finance its consumption mismatch in foreign sector. Just even accounting for that the CAD worsened to 5% and even more for good chunk of years....and this prompted over time (like a wind never dissipating) exposure of the rickety structure of kicking the can (i.e take a loan and use to prop up consumption strength of PKR artificially) to satisfy oligarchs status quo. The foliage they invested in covering this all up (at least the basic process) has almost entirely blown away...it simply cannot be denied anymore....what remains to be seen is how many of the people (at all levels) see this and do something....or just play emperor news clothes kind of charade still.

All of what you mention above will change slowly as Pakistan changes its orbit away from its traditional axes.
 
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All of what you mention above will change slowly as Pakistan changes its orbit away from its traditional axes.

I am just an observer and know little of the internal churn process for Pakistan.

But to me there is a limit threshold (for insulation/extreme autarky) if one has deployed large sensory network externally and is also quite reliant on it for lot of bread/butter stuff. It would need a huge amount of energy invested (over considerable period of time) to undo the current momentum framework....that I am sure the forces that be (inside Pakistan) would rather invest other places first (if their continued intent is more status quo) to begin with given economy of effort. Whereas you look at North Korea and they have neither a tier-1 country (forget multiple ones by virtue of shared colonial history and elite common language etc) to deploy their emigrants to for decades...nor do they have a close-by labour-pull source replete with oil money like GCC-Pakistan relationship. Thus they have a very different scale of autarky all together complete with monolith personal dynasty/godhead running it (unthinkable to Pakistani culture in broad terms given the broader faith structure in Pakistan that vests itself above all human imperfection). As to what scale of that Pakistan can achieve...I dunno, depends how you measure it I suppose...lets see. I think Pakistan can reform and get out of this mess if it put its mind to it....rather than face revolution or extreme regression.

BTW what would you say are the traditional axes anyway? I just did a long winded dimensional analysis with an associate of mine purely for debate exercise...and I was surprised by my own clarity of thought on the matter (what dimensions even are) more broadly.
 
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