Why is great philosopher Kautilya not part of Pakistan’s historical consciousness?

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Ah Pak Friends,

How can one claim what one already possesses?

Regardless, before all the claiming and reclaiming business can commence, first and far most question is what does Land of Indus mean? What does this cradle of Civlisation stand for?

When there is an answer to it... all else will find its harmonious place under the Pak Sun!

Whatever the answer you agree upon,... it will shape your destiny. All these decades of one step forward and ten backwards have to do with not accepting what you are, People of Indus.

Recognise your own genius... cultivate humble pride. All follows from thence... you don't need to invent any myths or steal others heritage to find meaning in Life. You are what you are! Accept.

Your friends wish you well!

Regards,

Mangus

 

[Narcissist]

The Indo-Greeks = Pashtuns? lol

Kushans originated in the Bactria-Sogdiana region, East Iranics of the vicinity like Pamiris, Yaghnobis etc. would have the most derived ancestry from them however other people from the former regions of their kingdom, with high steppe ancestry may have Kushan blood as well.

Yes, and they moved into Gandhara (Peshawar), and they intermixed and made it a glorious empire. Pashtun are also East Iranics, lest you forget.

I believe a distinct identity of Awghan or Afghan (Pashtun) already existed in the Kushan period, and they were contemporaries of Kushans.......we come across a mention about Abgans (or Awgans as 'b' and 'w' are often interchangeable in iranic languages) in 3rd century CE......Who knows, may be Afghans were resisting the 'foreign' Kushans

Depending on source, Afghan or Pakhtun etc were referred to in the area of Gandhara. Sources go way back in that as far as regionality is concerned.

Kushans are not Pashtuns PERIOD! Sure Kushans ruled Afghanistan and what is now Pakistan however their is nothing to indicate they are Pashtuns, do study some history young fellow!

Blah blah blah... your words don't mean much. You have no argument, just blind assertions. Can you tell me WHY? Please do that, and then we'll have a productive discussion.

@Narcissist will probably say Mahmud was a Pashtun lol, no point with arguing with dogmatic folks like him, I would say a Gujjar from Punjab has more of a case to claim Kushan heritage than say a Yousafzia.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....

You were claiming Kushans are ancestors of Punjabis. You provided no argument, no evidence... at least I provided an argument (not to mention there is evidence i.e. the people in the region weren't displaced much).

There's further argument that Hepthalite were a tribe belonging to/similar tribe to Kushans. So even the Hepthalites weren't much different in genetic admixture per this argument.

Your turn to do research.

Do keep in mind that it was you trying to claim Kushans as Punjabi.

A more likely explanation.

LOOOOLLLLL... yeah bro. Just clap for anyone that says anything remotely in favor of your fairy tale. Fine tactic, I do say! Tally ho, good sir...

Modern day Pashtuns themselves are a mosaic of different ancient tribes who had settled in South and East Afghanistan as well as KPK, so who knows, but one thing I can say with a fair degree of confidence is that the ancient Kushans were not Pashtuns yet their may be a some Pashtun or Pashtunised tribes who have Kushan genes flowing through their their blood.Kudos sir

The first part is right, and applies to nearly every race. Realistically we're a mix of Kushan, Hepthalite, Greek and maybe some other ancestry...

Now the second part: How do you know "for sure"? Do elaborate. Provide an argument maybe? Also tell me why you think Punjabi tribes are Kushan? That's really what the topic of discussion SHOULD be... we've sidetracked.

 

[Mian Babban]

Depending on source, Afghan or Pakhtun etc were referred to in the area of Gandhara. Sources go way back in that as far as regionality is concerned.



Blah blah blah... your words don't mean much. You have no argument, just blind assertions. Can you tell me WHY? Please do that, and then we'll have a productive discussion.

Its not blind assertion by me, Afghan/Pashtun identity already existed in the Kushan period and before, and i believe our ancestors must have viewed them in the way they viewed Mughal rulers of Kabul, Ghazni and Peshawar and Arghun rulers of Qandahar and Sibi. I also dismiss the claim that Hepthalites are major contributor to the ethnogenesis of Pashtuns. The Hepthalites in Pashtun belt were none other Khaljis and Pashtuns never owned them, even though the latter had adopted Afghan manners and customs (Ghilzais have nothing to do with Khalj). Pashtuns and Afghans are very ancient people evident from the fact that Pashto is a very ancient language according to linguists. They have not arrived from remote Central Asia or Caucasus or China but are the ancient inhabitants of Suleiman mountains and surroundings or the region between river Helmand and river Indus

 

[kadamba-warrior]

What does it have for non Muslims?
Or other living beings? Animals? Plants?

What does it offer non-Muslims? A choice to peacefully convert and to believe what has been written down that long ago. Then you, your wife and kids are safe from the marauding herds of believers who insist that others also believe in whatever they believe. What makes it particularly appealing is that, no Muslim would ever be allowed hold your wife and kids (including boys) as bounties of war in a harem! What makes the offer even harder to resist is that, 6 dozens of virgins will be delivered to you directly. At your doorsteps!

If you don't convert peacefully, well then you, of all people, should know the drill!

 

[django]

Yes, and they moved into Gandhara (Peshawar), and they intermixed and made it a glorious empire. Pashtun are also East Iranics, lest you forget.



Depending on source, Afghan or Pakhtun etc were referred to in the area of Gandhara. Sources go way back in that as far as regionality is concerned.



Blah blah blah... your words don't mean much. You have no argument, just blind assertions. Can you tell me WHY? Please do that, and then we'll have a productive discussion.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....

You were claiming Kushans are ancestors of Punjabis. You provided no argument, no evidence... at least I provided an argument (not to mention there is evidence i.e. the people in the region weren't displaced much).

There's further argument that Hepthalite were a tribe belonging to/similar tribe to Kushans. So even the Hepthalites weren't much different in genetic admixture per this argument.

Your turn to do research.

Do keep in mind that it was you trying to claim Kushans as Punjabi.



LOOOOLLLLL... yeah bro. Just clap for anyone that says anything remotely in favor of your fairy tale. Fine tactic, I do say! Tally ho, good sir...



The first part is right, and applies to nearly every race. Realistically we're a mix of Kushan, Hepthalite, Greek and maybe some other ancestry...

Now the second part: How do you know "for sure"? Do elaborate. Provide an argument maybe? Also tell me why you think Punjabi tribes are Kushan? That's really what the topic of discussion SHOULD be... we've sidetracked.

Mr Babban summed it up perfectly.... as for the influential tribes of Punjab/Potahar/Hazara they are highly likely to have Kushan descent as the Kushans ruled and settled in these parts long ago at a time whilst the Pashtun were residing in the Suleiman Khel region, Pashtuns entered these areas way, way later thus your theory of Kanishka being a Pashtun King is highly implausible to say the least, whereas a Gujjar from Potohar ( BTW I am not Gujjar) may well have a much better case of having a connection with Kanishka.

You were claiming Kushans are ancestors of Punjabis. You provided no argument, no evidence.

I guess the Kushans disappeared in to thin air, they settled down in these land and did not leave, unless you can provide an argument to state that Kushans suddenly just went away, i stand by my claim, heck even some Pashtunised tribes may well have Kushan origins ( from conquered areas of Afghanistan) and many more Tajik tribes yet I stand by my claim that the original Pashtuns and original Kushans were separate people.

 

[Mrc]

Caz he looks like a serial rapist... may be that's why

 

[PakBlood]

Mr Babban summed it up perfectly.... as for the influential tribes of Punjab/Potahar/Hazara they are highly likely to have Kushan descent as the Kushans ruled and settled in these parts long ago at a time whilst the Pashtun were residing in the Suleiman Khel region, Pashtuns entered these areas way, way later thus your theory of Kanishka being a Pashtun King is highly implausible to say the least, whereas a Gujjar from Potohar ( BTW I am not Gujjar) may well have a much better case of having a connection with Kanishka.

I guess the Kushans disappeared in to thin air, they settled down in these land and did not leave, unless you can provide an argument to state that Kushans suddenly just went away, i stand by my claim, heck even some Pashtunised tribes may well have Kushan origins ( from conquered areas of Afghanistan) and many more Tajik tribes yet I stand by my claim that the original Pashtuns and original Kushans were separate people.

Kautilya was indeed a brilliant statesman and a political thinker, the sciences of political power, according to that time, were very nicely written down by him centuries ago.

Aside from his cultural and political heritage, he seems to have had quite a bit of influence on modern Indian political strategists and foreign policy masterminds. For example, he stated that empires face threats from others empires that surround them, therefore, it is best for the ruler of a given empire to build an alliance with other kingdoms that surround it's enemies, and hence , India faces a military threat from Pakistan and so they have sought to surround us with hostile states by attempting to ally woth afghanistan and Iran while aiming to isolate us globally albeit without complete success,

So, I believe that, to understand Kautilya's political strategies, is to understand the way that the Indian State thinks and behaves, no?

The land we got after independence was house of many civilizations and different religions but later Islam dominates that areas with the passage of time since many thousand soldiers came from Arab with families due to different reasons and it is totally unfair to say that we are descendant of Hindus.

 

[utraash]

I repeat. The individual differences in the three come mainly from the people it was meant for. And came from.

There is a degree of hate Arabs have for Persians, and disdain Persians have for Arabs, which is difficult if not impossible for us in this part of the world to appreciate.

Persia is and always was Islam's main and only prize.

The rest of the world was simply imperialistic overrun.

Let me also put something out here, which I probably might have mentioned before. Might not.

The Parsis came to India not when all was lost, but when hope still burned about a fightback and reversal.

The original ships had no able bodied fighting men. Only women, children, the elderly and wise, and the priests. ALL armed for war.

India was a temporary move only to save the texts and the holy fire. While the men fought on.

Which they did. But the tide had turned. And eventually Persia fully converted only 300 years later by around 1000 AD.

And the Indian line of the Parsis now knew that there was no going back. They fled when Persia fell militarily. They stayed when Persia fell in a way there was no return from. Or to.

Forget back. They were to pick up arms once more 500 years later and fight the same ideology. Only this time their own half cousins, the by then Turkified Persian invaders who hit and occupied India.

Having to hide and save the holy Atash once more. For another 300 years. In the caves and forests of Gujarat.

So I repeat our favourite old line. This is an ancient enmity. Of blood and faith.

And I believe it is still to play out fully.

Cheers, Doc

What you debating for dear. For enlightenment of those who ardently love to lace up their ideology with supremacism of a cult, never ever seen a spiritual resurrection with inclusiveness & finally gone down morally. No wonder & mind what I say " things are not permanent to stay as it is today, sinosudial curve has its peak & trough.

Proclaiming the past of a land for its glory will give them no salvation but consolation as a loser. The imprints of blood strained sword are in abundance from Persia to Malaysia.
With reasonability they can lay a claim the glory of Kautilya as it falls in present pure land,rest in present form they are different entity like to be identified with & certainly not the one Kautilya ever thought of representing in future,Pure landers.

Note- This is same Kautilya whose another name is amply used in derogatory sense in this same forum by very same ppl who are suddenly outclassing the Indian connection.

 

[Narcissist]

Mr Babban summed it up perfectly.... as for the influential tribes of Punjab/Potahar/Hazara they are highly likely to have Kushan descent as the Kushans ruled and settled in these parts long ago at a time whilst the Pashtun were residing in the Suleiman Khel region, Pashtuns entered these areas way, way later thus your theory of Kanishka being a Pashtun King is highly implausible to say the least, whereas a Gujjar from Potohar ( BTW I am not Gujjar) may well have a much better case of having a connection with Kanishka.

He just gave his opinion, and made sure to say it's his opinion because he knows it's not a fact.

I don't know what you're talking about with the Koh i Sulaiman stuff... that's all legendary and the dates of when it happened is a work of fiction (and certainly before the AD which is when the Kushans were in Pekhawar). Alexander the great entered the region in 4 century BC, Herodotus makes mention of them (being in the Gandhara region), many scholars make mention of this... Kushans were there in the 1st - 5th century AD. You seem to be resting your entire hypothesis on this, but you haven't even gotten your dates right.

I guess the Kushans disappeared in to thin air, they settled down in these land and did not leave, unless you can provide an argument to state that Kushans suddenly just went away, i stand by my claim, heck even some Pashtunised tribes may well have Kushan origins ( from conquered areas of Afghanistan) and many more Tajik tribes yet I stand by my claim that the original Pashtuns and original Kushans were separate people.

No they were a part of the local populace. They were Pakhtun ethnically. Perhaps religion, maybe even language, was different... but the ethnic group has Kushan admixture. Specifically in the northern KPK area...

 

[padamchen]

What you debating for dear. For enlightenment of those who ardently love to lace up their ideology with supremacism of a cult, never ever seen a spiritual resurrection with inclusiveness & finally gone down morally. No wonder & mind what I say " things are not permanent to stay as it is today, sinosudial curve has its peak & trough.

Proclaiming the past of a land for its glory will give them no salvation but consolation as a loser. The imprints of blood strained sword are in abundance from Persia to Malaysia.
With reasonability they can lay a claim the glory of Kautilya as it falls in present pure land,rest in present form they are different entity like to be identified with & certainly not the one Kautilya ever thought of representing in future,Pure landers.

Note- This is same Kautilya whose another name is amply used in derogatory sense in this same forum by very same ppl who are suddenly outclassing the Indian connection.

Mea culpa !

I actually did not know till now that the two were the same guy.

This is actually a good thread Utraash ji , with most guys being really knowledgeable and civil.

Moving forward I have decided that this is going to be the tone of my engagement on PDF. Constructive. Intellectual.

I will stay far away from low IQ gutter class hate mongers of all hues.

I just came back from a cycle ride with two of my Hindu friends to the most gorgeous Ram mandir. Shady trees, rolling hilly road, the mandir is built in the middle of a lake. Tons if little kittens playing allaround. Dogs lazing peacefully nearby. Serene. Beautiful.

There is way too much negativity online and in social media, and it definitely begins to affect you.

Just some thoughts ....

Cheers, Doc

 

[utraash]

Mea culpa !

I actually did not know till now that the two were the same guy.

This is actually a good thread Utraash ji , with most guys being really knowledgeable and civil.

Moving forward I have decided that this is going to be the tone of my engagement on PDF. Constructive. Intellectual.

I will stay far away from low IQ gutter class hate mongers of all hues.

I just came back from a cycle ride with two of my Hindu friends to the most gorgeous Ram mandir. Shady trees, rolling hilly road, the mandir is built in the middle of a lake. Tons if little kittens playing allaround. Dogs lazing peacefully nearby. Serene. Beautiful.

There is way too much negativity online and in social media, and it definitely begins to affect you.

Just some thoughts ....

Cheers, Doc

Agreed sir ji but the more I dig into history, the more is infusion of what you just reflected upon.
But my quest will go on.
Let it be sir whatever it is.

Where are you doing cycle ride ?

 

[padamchen]

Agreed sir ji but the more I dig into history, the more is infusion of what you just reflected upon.
But my quest will go on.
Let it be sir whatever it is.

Where are you doing cycle ride ?

Will post photo.

Ati sundar.

Place called Ramdara. About 25 km from Poona towards Solapur.

Medieval temple.

Cheers, Doc

 

[django]

He just gave his opinion, and made sure to say it's his opinion because he knows it's not a fact.

I don't know what you're talking about with the Koh i Sulaiman stuff... that's all legendary and the dates of when it happened is a work of fiction (and certainly before the AD which is when the Kushans were in Pekhawar). Alexander the great entered the region in 4 century BC, Herodotus makes mention of them (being in the Gandhara region), many scholars make mention of this... Kushans were there in the 1st - 5th century AD. You seem to be resting your entire hypothesis on this, but you haven't even gotten your dates right.



No they were a part of the local populace. They were Pakhtun ethnically. Perhaps religion, maybe even language, was different... but the ethnic group has Kushan admixture. Specifically in the northern KPK area...

Did the Kushans ever refer to themselves as Packtyans, speak a version of pashto or did others refer to them as Packtyans, we know the Chinese called them "yuehzi" but I cannot find any source calling them Packtyan ,,,,,, from all I have read of the Pashtuns they are thought to have resided in the Suleimankheil mountains and adjacent areas, whereas the Kushans from all the sources I have come across came from a semi-sedentary civilization (Tarim basin) who moved from fringes of the eastern Tarim basin, all the way into Bactria. They stayed in Bactria, solidified their control, then made their way into what is now KPK/Potahar/Punjab and eventually embraced local customs
@Mian Babban @Kaptaan When it comes to Pashtun history you folks seem to be the authority on PDF, from what i know it was Dilzaks who first entered KPK in the 11th century followed by subsequent invasion by Yousafzias and the rest, is this correct or where pashtuns already in KPK region at the time of the Kushan invasions.

 

[Mian Babban]

Did the Kushans ever refer to themselves as Packtyans, speak a version of pashto or did others refer to them as Packtyans, we know the Chinese called them "yuehzi" but I cannot find any source calling them Packtyan ,,,,,, from all I have read of the Pashtuns they are thought to have resided in the Suleimankheil mountains and adjacent areas, whereas the Kushans from all the sources I have come across came from a semi-sedentary civilization (Tarim basin) who moved from fringes of the eastern Tarim basin, all the way into Bactria. They stayed in Bactria, solidified their control, then made their way into what is now KPK/Potahar/Punjab and eventually embraced local customs
@Mian Babban @Kaptaan When it comes to Pashtun history you folks seem to be the authority on PDF, from what i know it was Dilzaks who first entered KPK in the 11th century followed by subsequent invasion by Yousafzias and the rest, is this correct or where pashtuns already in KPK region at the time of the Kushan invasions.

Suleiman mountain range is very vast area and it also runs in Loy Paktiya region (Paktia, Paktika and Khost). Some people assume that Koh-i-Suliman is some range in Baluchistan province but to get an idea, it also runs in hilly portion of Dera Ismail Khan and Waziristan, and in DG Khan of Punjab. It also extends to Zabul and Kandahar. In the past, Pashtuns were called Suliamanis as Koh-i-Sulieman was their country. For example a famous saint of India, Qasim Sulimani, was a Pashtun and his disciple who wrote book on him by name of "Asrar-ul-Afghan", informs us that Pashtuns are also called Suliamanis in India. 14th century traveler Ibn-i-Batuta also say that Afghans are called Suliemanis because their abode is Sulieman range. Ibni-i-Batuta furnishes this information at the point when he come across Afghans in Kabul. Afsana-i-Shahan (written in 1607 AD) narrates the Pashtun legend that the three brothers , Baitan, Sarban and Ghurghusht (progenitors of Afghan people) lived on the banks of Gomal river in the Sulieman mountains. These few historical references and legends hints Koh-i-Suliaman to be an ancient abode of Pashtuns. Ancient Greeks have called this region "Arachosia"

Dilazaks appear to have migrated from Nangarhar to Peshawar , date is not known but they have an oral tradition that this migration took place during Mahmud Ghaznavid's times. But Tarikh-i-Ferishta (early 17th century source) talks about Afghan invasions of Kirman (Kurram) and Peshawar in 682 AD on the basis of some unknown authority, that they fought against Hindu Shahis. Later Afghans made peace with Hindu Shahis and entered into their services. This is confirmed by Fakhr-i-Mudabbir (late 12th century sources) which says that one of the general of Raja Jaipal was "Adhira Afghan" who betrayed him and assisted Mahmud Ghaznavi. Utbi , the Ghaznavid historian, says that nomad Afghans and Khalj of Peshawar submitted to Sebukatgin. So Afghans/Pashtuns element was introduced into Peshawar valley before the Ghazvanid rule.

 

[django]

Suleiman mountain range is very vast area and it also runs in Loy Paktiya region (Paktia, Paktika and Khost). Some people assume that Koh-i-Suliman is some range in Baluchistan province but to get an idea, it also runs in hilly portion of Dera Ismail Khan and Waziristan, and in DG Khan of Punjab. It also extends to Zabul and Kandahar. In the past, Pashtuns were called Suliamanis as Koh-i-Sulieman was their country. For example a famous saint of India, Qasim Sulimani, was a Pashtun and his disciple who wrote book on him by name of "Asrar-ul-Afghan", informs us that Pashtuns are also called Suliamanis in India. 14th century traveler Ibn-i-Batuta also say that Afghans are called Suliemanis because their abode is Sulieman range. Ibni-i-Batuta furnishes this information at the point when he come across Afghans in Kabul. Afsana-i-Shahan (written in 1607 AD) narrates the Pashtun legend that the three brothers , Baitan, Sarban and Ghurghusht (progenitors of Afghan people) lived on the banks of Gomal river in the Sulieman mountains. These few historical references and legends hints Koh-i-Suliaman to be an ancient abode of Pashtuns. Ancient Greeks have called this region "Arachosia"

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Dilazaks appear to have migrated from Nangarhar to Peshawar , date is not known but they have an oral tradition that this migration took place during Mahmud Ghaznavid's times. But Tarikh-i-Ferishta (early 17th century source) talks about Afghan invasions of Kirman (Kurram) and Peshawar in 682 AD on the basis of some unknown authority, that they fought against Hindu Shahis. Later Afghans made peace with Hindu Shahis and entered into their services. This is confirmed by Fakhr-i-Mudabbir (late 12th century sources) which says that one of the general of Raja Jaipal was "Adhira Afghan" who betrayed him and assisted Mahmud Ghaznavi. Utbi , the Ghaznavid historian, says that nomad Afghans and Khalj of Peshawar submitted to Sebukatgin. So Afghans/Pashtuns element was introduced into Peshawar valley before the Ghazvanid rule.

This appears to be the general consensus however according to Sir Olaf Caroe, a tribe by the name of Paktye existed in the KPK region at the time of Alexanders invasion, his source was Herodtus , if the Paktye are indeed Pashtuns then Pashtun history in the region needs to be rewritten.Kudos sir.