Why is China interfering in Pakistan's domestic affairs ?

[Indus Pakistan]

The important thing to note here is the reason why people of Pakistan/India region came under British conquest was desi culture. Before British arrived we were 100% pure desi. What did that get us? Few traders of East India Company defeated entire South Asia. What happened to dozen ethnic groups, religions of South Asia? They all could not hold out the British. If desi is such a success why did it fail the Bengalis, Punjabis, Sindhi's, Marattas, Sikhs, Paktuns, Kashmiri's, Baloch etc

Today South Asia is NOT pure desi. It has taken in lot of western influence. It is a hybrid of influences. Could the British even take over Bangla today?

You just said non-White country but majority of Turks are white so it doesn't make any sense.

Lot of Iran, Afghanistan, Western Pakistan is as 'white' as Turkey. This is not about pigment of skin. This is about socio-political formula that places societies on road to success in the modern world. And that is the path followed by Europe. That path is not intrinsic to Europe but merely result of them walking through it first.

This is akin to a group of people walking through a minefield. After they have navigated what should others do? Follow the same path or insist on finding another path because they label the other path as westoxified or they don't like the first group?

In our countries we are that group that refuses to use that path because we are sore about having been fcuked by the group that first was succesful. The Japs, Chinese, Turks, south Koreans, Singaporans, Malays have shown no such hang up.

They went running for the path marked 'westoxified'.

In South Asia which is the most 'westoxified' demograhic group?

@Juggernaut_is_here

 

[Uguduwa]

The important thing to note here is the reason why people of Pakistan/India region came under British conquest was desi culture. Before British arrived we were 100% pure desi. What did that get us? Few traders of East India Company defeated entire South Asia. What happened to dozen ethnic groups, religions of South Asia? They all could not hold out the British. If desi is such a success why did it fail the Bengalis, Punjabis, Sindhi's, Marattas, Sikhs, Paktuns, Kashmiri's, Baloch etc

Today South Asia is NOT pure desi. It has taken in lot of western influence. It is a hybrid of influences. Could the British even take over Bangla

Yeah South Asia has historically been a failure compared to other major civilisations like Rome, China etc. IMO, the reason is too much obsession into religion, superstition. Other reason is, South Asia had no tradition to keep written records of scientific knowledge so each successive generation had to reinvent the wheel. Also, the biggest universities that ancient India boasts were religious which in my opinion served no purpose. South Asia could have benefited from open-minded thinking, separation of science from religion and absorbing ideas from other places.

However, I can't speak for other places but Sri Lanka is changing for the better. Younger generation is less religious and less resistant to change.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

The important thing to note here is the reason why people of Pakistan/India region came under British conquest was desi culture. Before British arrived we were 100% pure desi. What did that get us? Few traders of East India Company defeated entire South Asia. What happened to dozen ethnic groups, religions of South Asia? They all could not hold out the British. If desi is such a success why did it fail the Bengalis, Punjabis, Sindhi's, Marattas, Sikhs, Paktuns, Kashmiri's, Baloch etc

Today South Asia is NOT pure desi. It has taken in lot of western influence. It is a hybrid of influences. Could the British even take over Bangla today?

Lot of Iran, Afghanistan, Western Pakistan is as 'white' as Turkey. This is not about pigment of skin. This is about socio-political formula that places societies on road to success in the modern world. And that is the path followed by Europe. That path is not intrinsic to Europe but merely result of them walking through it first.

This is akin to a group of people walking through a minefield. After they have navigated what should others do? Follow the same path or insist on finding another path because they label the other path as westoxified or they don't like the first group?

In our countries we are that group that refuses to use that path because we are sore about having been fcuked by the group that first was succesful. The Japs, Chinese, Turks, south Koreans, Singaporans, Malays have shown no such hang up.

They went running for the path marked 'westoxified'.

In South Asia which is the most 'westoxified' demograhic group?

@Juggernaut_is_here

Parsis


also the group which Aga Khan leads. Either Aga Khan or his Ismaili Shia group has powerful business interests in the West and therefore has kept religious radicalism down to zero. The Aga Khans have progressively made themselves white too over the generations.

But no group in the subcontinent comes close to the Parsis in terms of complete embracement of Westoxification. and the results......well they are there for all to see

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Yeah South Asia has historically been a failure

Not so coterminous Pakistan. Our lands are littered with glories of the past. Wherever you drive you drive through marvels of ancient history and cradles of human civilization. The subject in hand is the last 500 years.

 

[Uguduwa]

Not so coterminous Pakistan. Our lands are littered with glories of the past. Wherever you drive you drive through marvels of ancient history and cradles of human civilization. The subject in hand is the last 500 years.

meh... whatever it contributed to modern civilisation is nothing compared to Romans, Greek, Chinese etc.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Parsis

Fantastic. Your on the same wavelength as me. Parsis. And what do you know about this group? They are the most westoxified group in South Asia. But have a record of success that even possibly exceeds Jews.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Fantastic. Your on the same wavelength as me. Parsis. And what do you know about this group? They are the most westoxified group in South Asia. But have a record of success that even possibly exceeds Jews.

They understood the need for research in the fundamental sciences well before others in the British Raj. First ones to open steel plants in Asia I reckon. JRD Tata may almost be called the Howard Hughes of the subcontinent. There was a Hindu monk, Vivekananda, who correctly anticipated the need for fundamental science when he became impressed by a Japanese demonstration of their latest indigenous machine gun. This monk then went to Parsi Tatas regarding the need for science rather than to any rich Hindu businessman. Tatas and its institutions were islands of dignity for the modern Indian state for the first 50 years when all it knew was poverty and squalor. Reliance and the IT Giants came online only in the 2000s in terms of footprint. Tata steel townships have a level of cleanliness comparable to small European towns even if the aesthetics might be lacking. This is from the 90s when private gated communities were non-existent in India.

From the mercantile class Aga Khan and the group he leads among the Muslims are very westoxified ...They have powerful business interests in the West and therefore has kept religious radicalism down to zero. The Aga Khans have progressively made themselves white too over the generations.

From the larger Hindu society, Jain diamond traders in Antwerp


But no group ever had the ambition of matching the Europeans in industry as the Parsis .For that they gave up whatever cultural footprint they had and went full European

Yeah South Asia has historically been a failure compared to other major civilisations like Rome, China etc. IMO, the reason is too much obsession into religion, superstition. Other reason is, South Asia had no tradition to keep written records of scientific knowledge so each successive generation had to reinvent the wheel. Also, the biggest universities that ancient India boasts were religious which in my opinion served no purpose. South Asia could have benefited from open-minded thinking, separation of science from religion and absorbing ideas from other places.

However, I can't speak for other places but Sri Lanka is changing for the better. Younger generation is less religious and less resistant to change.

Coming from Sri Lanka, it would be better if you knew that Sri Lankan Buddhist architecture were regularly among world's top five tallest buildings for thousands of years...but you have a point

 

[Uguduwa]

Coming from Sri Lanka, it would be better if you knew that Sri Lankan Buddhist architecture were regularly among world's top five tallest buildings for thousands of years

But the key point is these structures are also religious. I find it a massive waste of effort. If the same effort was spent on conventional science and tech, I think Sri Lanka could have produced some revolutionary ideas. Except for irrigation, ancient Sri Lanka lacks any game-changing technology.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

But the key point is these structures are also religious. I find it a massive waste of effort. If the same effort was spent on conventional science and tech, I think Sri Lanka could have produced some revolutionary ideas. Except for irrigation, ancient Sri Lanka lacks any game-changing technology.

How has been historical record keeping in Sri Lanka? The level of record keeping and historicity in Indian culture is atrocious.There is Kalhana of the 12th century,Banabhatta of the 7th century and that's about it...There is continuous record keeping in Nepal going back to 982 AD or 983 AD. Okay a part of the problem might be destruction of old records by the Turkic invasions but a significant part of the problem has to be Indians themselves. Every historical genealogy devolves into myths and the supernatural at one point,rendering the whole thing worthless. A big part of the problem is the Puranas. Legitimate records till the 4th century were in all probability completely fudged by the Guptas and tinged with supernatural,mythical elements.They did it probably to legitimize their claim and at least on the plus side gave rise to a sense of proto-statehood. Well they were successful because even 1700 years later the Hindu parts of the subcontinent always want coalesce into a single nationhood.

But historians are always a t a loss to deduce actual history from them. No Indian ever even tried to deduce actual history from the Puranas till the European Pargiter came along. If you hear history of India from completely traditional sources it is like one Arthurian Legend after the another..With Merlin like magicians in full regalia. About half of Indian history is known from Greek,Roman and Chinese sources..and the rest from Inscriptions...and may be 10-20 percent(upper bound being highly generous) from the Puranas and the epics.

At least the British Isles had two very well documented historical periods on either side of its completely magical period.

Roman Britain (logical,rational,meticulous record keeper) and Norman Britain straddle the middle completely magical,fantastical Britain

 

[Indus Pakistan]

But the key point is these structures are also religious.

Most structures before 1500 were religious. In Europe, in Asia or Americas. The Romans made little scientific advances. The built militaristic structures or amphithetres for killing.

This is Bakhshali Toll Plaza in Khyber Pakhtunkwa, Pakistan on the Swat Motorway. It may look insignificant but this is where the first recorded zero in mathematical text was found.

 

[W.11]

But the key point is these structures are also religious. I find it a massive waste of effort. If the same effort was spent on conventional science and tech, I think Sri Lanka could have produced some revolutionary ideas. Except for irrigation, ancient Sri Lanka lacks any game-changing technology.

gardens of sigiriya contain the earliest evidences of char bagh and earliest working fountains in south asia. Srilanka also contains hospital ruins, the forest reserve/national parks is also evidenced from srilankan texts, it also has some very ancient artificial lakes dating before christian era, the secular architecture probably didn't survive the passage of time. im not sure what you are referring as ''game changing technology though.

regards

Coming from Sri Lanka, it would be better if you knew that Sri Lankan Buddhist architecture were regularly among world's top five tallest buildings for thousands of years...but you have a point

dubious video, where is qutub minar? and other minars?

regards

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

gardens of sigiriya contain the earliest evidences of char bagh and earliest working fountains in south asia. Srilanka also contains hospital ruins, the forest reserve/national parks is also evidenced from srilankan texts, it also has some very ancient artificial lakes dating before christian era, the secular architecture probably didn't survive the passage of time. im not sure what you are referring as ''game changing technology though.

regards



dubious video, where is qutub minar? and other minars?

regards

Ummayad Minar has been included...Qutb Minar was built in the 13th century and merely 73 metres high...not enough to make the grade of top 5 in its era

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Can we leave the period pre 1500 please. The present is primarly informed by last 500 years. European ascendency and our slavery during the colonial period dates within this 500 years.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Can we leave the period pre 1500 please. The present is primarly informed by last 500 years. European ascendency and our slavery during the colonial period dates within this 500 years.

Caravel Ships that could travel against the wind...was the first big European technology that put them head and shoulders above others.

This was EXACTLY the point where rest of the world started their long descent..It happened around 50 years to 80 years before 1500 AD though

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_ship_development,_1400–1600


This made Oceans basically highways for Europeans rather than vast foreboding expanses that cut off different parts of the world from eachother

 

[Indus Pakistan]

This made Oceans basically highways for Europeans rather than vast foreboding expanses that cut off different parts of the world from eachother

I would move away from crediting this to white and even Europeans. Actually it's only few countries on the western rim that led the charge into modern world. I mean Polish, Bulgars, Romanians, Ukranians, Moldavians etc achieved about as much as Negros. Even the Germans for most of history were cold weather variants of banana chompers. Even in the last 200 years they have done more danage then good to humanity.