Why India's response to Pathankot attack was 'a debacle'

[Dungeness]

Our Indian friends seem to have an excuse for anything and everything。

No amount of state of art weapon systems could make up for this trait. It is deep-rooted.

 

[axisofevil]

Be ready for a surge in attacks, and huge casualties in coming months. NDA is showing the same spinelessness as UPA.

Plz....Congress ran this country's pathetic security for 60 odd yrs. If you want to place blame, then place it on those fools only. Give NDA a chance......its going to require a lot of effort to reverse the stupidity, inaction and deeply rooted corruption in defense related matters.

 

[MilSpec]

Plz....Congress ran this country's pathetic security for 60 odd yrs. If you want to place blame, then place it on those fools only. Give NDA a chance......its going to require a lot of effort to reverse the stupidity, inaction and deeply rooted corruption in defense related matters.

By repeating the same exact steps that congress took. I thought NDA under P.M. Modi would be different. Different tree same wood.

 

[Signalian]

Its an intelligence failure to start with. Even if intel was given, and no productive counter measures to stop or avoid this incident, were taken, means its the failure of the system to combat terrorism.

If India says, its PA and ISI ops, then where was BSF?
was BSF bribed?
why werent these fellows detected while crossing the border with all the fencing and Night vision devices and surveillance equipment that India is putting on the borders?
India is so called an IT hub but cannot design,install, commission and integrate equipment on the border.

These 4 terrorists carried a 51mm mortar and RL across the border. Any of you guys fired a 61mm or 81mm mortar? i think not, the bloody balancing bubble is pain before fixating for firing to ensure a proper angle of fire and on top of that carrying rounds of mortar ammo is an ordeal.
Carrying RL's rounds is another burden.
If one carried mortar, another carried RL, one carried mortar rounds, another carried RL rounds. all had AK's and other exploding equipment like IED,bombs or grenades.
I think these terrorists were super humans to walk across the border and make it 25 to 30km inside India.

Suppose, hypothetically, if PA sends SSG like this to take a walk unchecked by Indians through the border, make way in an IAF airbase, the IAF base will be owned.
Lucky for Indians, PA, ISI and Pakistan doesnt carry out such stunts even when its proved now that BSF is sleeping at the borders and Pakistanis can walk in any time!

BSF Failed !

So Indians lets them cross border, advance 25-30km inside its territory and finally make their way to an IAF airbase.

Lets talk about Indian Internal security.

Local Police was sleeping? Yes.
If they werent sleeping means they were bribed.
Are there any check posts in the area along the roads?No.. why not, its an important border town. Because India is not serious about combating terrorism, its serious only about blaming Pakistan under all circumstances.
The information given by a Police officer was disregarded who was allegedly abducted by these terrorists.
Did the police officer took the bribe? yes
If he didnt take the bribe, then he doesnt take his duty seriously? yes
If he informed his superiors in police and they didnt take any action is a failure again.
Indian police is refusing to believe the report of its own police officer.

Indian Police Failed !


Was the RAW internal security wing sleeping ? Yes.
Intelligence agencies are most active in border towns because thats where the any foreign operative is first detected or mingles up with local population. RAW operatives should have been on look out for any mysterious characters since an intel report of threat was given.

15 hours these terrorists were roaming about unchecked in army fatigues, calling handlers.

If RAW wasnt sleeping, then its the most useless agency which cant provide internal security.

RAW Failed !


The four attackers entered the airbase, jumped over walls and hid in elephant grass.

where were armed patrols? Sleeping
where are the security dogs that india is so proud of ? busy in giving stud services to civilian dog owners.
where were the watch towers? unmanned most probably.
Where were the personnel of DSC? Resting.
It is said that maybe 2 more terrorists made their way in the base before the attack, totalling 5 or 6.
Is IAF Airbase, a meeting place for anyone to come and have gathering, maybe chai with local biscuits too? Yes.

DSC Failed !

Base Security Failed I



NSG is an elite counter-terrorism unit which was sent to take out terrorists. NSG has taken parts in ops since 1986 and has many ops under its belt.

It took 36 hours or more for NSG to kill 5-6 terrorists.

If they were maybe 8 terrorists, it would have taken NSG 2 extra days to kill 2 extra terrorists? Yes, by the looks of it.

If the terrorists were contained for 2-3 days, then what was NSG doing at that time?
Playing cards with terrorists? most probably
starving them to death? genius
Making them run out of ammo? foolish tactic, they would still use suicide bombing or IED tactics.

SAG is a strike wing of NSG with personnel mostly drawn from IA. So its Indian Army trained soldiers taking part in the ops failing to neutralize terrorists within 24 hours.

The Deceased Lt Col fell to a common trap set up by terrorists.No proper safety protocol was followed and its a safety risk accident which is highlighted as a heroes death.

There is an Indian Army Infantry Divison, 29th Infantry i think, 2 of its brigades are deployed in forward area but 1 Brigade deployed in Pathankot along with GOC HQ, the civilian top brass didnt have sufficient confidence in engaging them to fight terrorists. They would have been quick to respond than NSG.

NSG Failed !

Indian Army Failed !

The only heroic incident was by the retired subedar whose widow will now get lesser pension than before and has not only lost a husband but lost a source of income too.

IAF aircraft and equipment may have been saved this time but the way this operation was planned and carried out is an epic failure. Terrorists are an unforgiving breed, Pakistan is a victim so we know. They may not be so generous next time.

All in all, it can be safely concluded.....

Indian Intelligence, Security and Military System Failed !

 

[Khafee]

'Confined space'? Does this idiot even know that the airbase has a 26 km circumference? Let's see if he can search the area even in one month! And there's elephant grass 8 ft high in the area as well as schools, shopping centres, residential accommodation and so on in the area which is a city in itself. And then there are terrorists to contend with. Collateral damage has to be kept in mind too.

Everyone suddenly becomes an expert in anti terror ops especially journalists who haven't even fired an air gun in their pathetic lives.

Do stop talking like Donald Trump and answer these questions:

1) If the Pak-India border can be fenced, why hasn't the Punjab border been mined, in places where it can't be fenced?

2) Why weren't K-9 units used ?

3) Why weren't Thermal Imaging cameras used?

4) Why weren't night vision googles / cameras used?

Had the above been used effectively, the operation would have been over in hours, not days.

 

[Khafee]

No multi million dollar assets lost like in case of mehran or kamra

No mass slaughter of our aircrew like in case of badaber

Attackers never made past periphery unlike at karachi airport.

Must be a debacle if you are on windjammers team.

Do feel free to add that a handful of people, shut down an airbase for 4 days.

 

[Inception-06]

We Pakistani should be calm here, we have lost many billion dollar air crafts in our Bases because of such attacks, so pointing on Patahnkoot makes no sense !

 

[Oracle 33]

There seems to have been a inside link with these attacks and I think more cells are in India waiting.

 

[Donald Trump]

Do stop talking like Donald Trump and answer these questions:

1) If the Pak-India border can be fenced, why hasn't the Punjab border been mined, in places where it can't be fenced?

2) Why weren't K-9 units used ?

3) Why weren't Thermal Imaging cameras used?

4) Why weren't night vision googles / cameras used?

Had the above been used effectively, the operation would have been over in hours, not days.

You're a 'military professional' and you come out with this?

1. The complete border cannot be fenced due to the riverine terrain. You cannot mine river beds as they become flooded during monsoons rendering the mines useless. You cannot keep laying thousands of mines every year. You haven't been to the area have you? If you had, you would have understood.

2. They were. Have you tried sniffing an area 26 km in circumference. Do some maths to find out the sq km to be searched/sniffed.

3. Are you aware that thermal imagers and NV goggles are useless in built-up areas like the air base within and outside, having schools, hospitals shopping centers and other buildings? If you didn't know, thermal imagers/NV devices can't see through walls. Further, your ignorance of the area makes you spew rubbish because TIs cant see through thick sarkanda grass 6 - 8 ft high covering thousands of meters in length and breath on both sides of the periphery.

 

[Khafee]

You're a 'military professional' and you come out with this?

1. The complete border cannot be fenced due to the riverine terrain. You cannot mine river beds as they become flooded during monsoons rendering the mines useless. You cannot keep laying thousands of mines every year. You haven't been to the area have you? If you had, you would have understood.

2. They were. Have you tried sniffing an area 26 km in circumference. Do some maths to find out the sq km to be searched/sniffed.

3. Are you aware that thermal imagers and NV goggles are useless in built-up areas like the air base within and outside, having schools, hospitals shopping centers and other buildings? If you didn't know, thermal imagers/NV devices can't see through walls. Further, your ignorance of the area makes you spew rubbish because TIs cant see through thick sarkanda grass 6 - 8 ft high covering thousands of meters in length and breath on both sides of the periphery.

See this is the thing, when you are clueless, best to keep quiet, rather open your mouth and prove to the world how clueless you really are.

1) Riverine Terrain does not mean it cannot be controlled. You just use different techniques, even basic ones like K-9 units helps!

Secondly, Whatever uninhabited area that is not low lying, should have been mined. But neither of these options have been utilized. No point in going to Night vision /Thermal / CCTV Cameras, drones or other simpler things like observation posts.

2) You are talking nonsense. 26km circumference is NOT impossible / difficult for K-9 units. You start at the perimeter and work your way in. Simple as that. This is one of the missions K-9 units train for. Even simpletons like Military Police use them exclusively as guard dogs.

3) Forget using, have you ever even held a NVG/ Thermal Camera in your hand? How come Helicopters, or drones, with FLIR weren't deployed? Lastly, why is the base overrun with vegetation, that has proven to be a nuisance?

Sorry to say, but any which way you look at it, very poor performance. The myth of invincibility destroyed, by a handful of rag tag nobody's.

IF proper accountability is to be done, heads would roll, right from the BSF sector in-charge., to the base commander, and so on, and so forth.

Lets see how this pans out.

 

[Salik]

We can share our experiences. We'll have to understand that we have a common enemy. South Asians must unite to combat terrorism and enemy using this terrorism.

 

[django]

• 6 January 2016

Image copyrightAFP
Image captionIndian forces have been searching the base for remnants of the group that attacked it

It took Indian authorities four days to put down a deadly attack on the Pathankot air force base near the Pakistani border which killed seven Indian soldiers and wounded another 22. The inept handling of the security operation can only be described as a debacle, writes defence analyst Rahul Bedi.

According to official accounts, the National Security Adviser Ajit Doval had advance intelligence of the planned attack on 1 January.

But military analysts said India's response to the attack was amateurish - there were inadequate offensive measures and the multiplicity of forces involved and a lack of suitable equipment rendered the entire operation a near fiasco.

When the attack began, Mr Doval chose to airlift some 150 National Security Guard (NSG) personnel from their base at Manesar, on Delhi's outskirts, to fight in an unfamiliar terrain.

Image copyrightAFP
Image captionIndia's National Security Guard headed the counter-strike operation at Pathankot
The operational command for the mission was handed over to the NSG, the Defence Service Corps (DSC) and the air force's Garud Special Forces.

The DSC comprises retired and unmotivated military personnel, whilst the Garuds continue to struggle for operational relevance amongst the plethora of India's burgeoning Special Forces.

In what appeared to be an obvious desire to control the operation, Mr Doval ignored the presence of some 50,000 army troops in the Pathankot region, possibly the highest such concentration in the country.

Reports said he requested the army chief for just two columns - 50-60 troops - to provide back-up support to the operation.

The army, say security officials, is experienced in battling Kashmiri insurgents.

The NSG, for its part, was unacquainted with the terrain and took avoidable losses that included Lieutenant-Colonel Niranjan Kumar being killed in a grenade explosion from a booby trapped militant's body.

Image copyrightAFP
Image captionDefence Minister Manohar Parrikar admitted that there were "some gaps in the operations"

Four other NSG personnel were injured in this blast that - in all probability - would not have fooled the army, familiar with such militant ploys of activating a grenade and lying on it as a last offensive act.

The NSG is also strapped for equipment - it has no competent night vision devices and other materiel necessary for an operation of the kind in Pathankot - military sources said.

Throughout the four days the operation lasted, the army was accorded a marginal role - although some 200 soldiers were eventually deployed when fighting stretched beyond 48 hours and after senior ministers - including Prime Minister Narendra Modi, Home Minister Rajnath Singh and Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar - had announced that the operation had been completed successfully.

The congratulatory messages followed the gunning down of four terrorists, but thereafter firing began afresh, and confusion prevailed over how many gunmen were hiding in the tall grass surrounding the air base, spread over some 1,200 hectares.

Image copyrightAP
Image captionNSG Lt-Col Niranjan Kumar was killed in a grenade explosion from a booby trapped militant's body

Sporadic gunfire, interspersed with grenade explosions, could be heard from inside the base until late on Monday night, security sources said, but they seemed unsure of the ground situation prevailing inside.

"Operations to eliminate the militants are in the final stages," deputy NSG commandant Major-General Dushyant Singh said on Monday afternoon.

On Tuesday, Defence Minister Parrikar told a press conference that "six militants have been neutralised" but added that sanitising the complex is likely to take a long time.

"I see some gaps in the operations, but I don't think we compromised on security," he said.

Analysts said the operational blunders committed by Indian security forces during the November 2008 militant attack on Mumbai, in which 166 people died, were mindlessly repeated in Pathankot due to a lack of well defined procedures.

Initially in Mumbai, the local police force was deployed against the 10 gunmen.

They were later replaced by the Indian Navy's Marine Commandoes (MARCOS) Special Forces.

Image copyrightEPA
Image captionThe Pathankot air force base extends over about 1,200 hectares

Army commandos then swapped roles with the MARCOS at the three attack venues in Mumbai - two hotels and a Jewish cultural centre.

The army was eventually substituted by the NSG, which took nearly 12 hours to reach Mumbai.

"The assortment of security agencies involved in the Pathankot operation, without a single, effective point of control, adversely [affected] the outcome," military analyst retired Maj-Gen Sheru Thapliyal said.

"Four days to neutralise no more than five or six militants is unacceptable in a confined open space where there is little or no scope of any civilian collateral damage," he added.

It appears the one upside of the entire operation was that the security forces were able to prevent the militants from sabotaging any air force "assets" - like Mig-21 fighters and attack helicopters.

Why India's response to Pathankot attack was 'a debacle' - BBC News

So much for the competency of Mr Doval

 

[Khafee]

So much for the competency of Mr Doval

It's not nice to rub salt on somebody's wounds

 

[django]

It's not nice to rub salt on somebody's wounds

Especially when the wounds are RAW

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Four other NSG personnel were injured in this blast that - in all probability - would not have fooled the army, familiar with such militant ploys of activating a grenade and lying on it as a last offensive act.

I thought the NSG combat personnel and officer corps were drawn from the regular Army, especially the Army special forces?