Why India's response to Pathankot attack was 'a debacle'

[my2cents]

I don't think anyway in hell would the Indian disclose if any assets were damaged

Our soldiers lives are more important. Lives lost cannot be replaced but if the aircraft's were damaged could be repaired or replaced.

 

[Negotiator]

Indians on the forum....do you have answer for this....
Punjab police, security forces and central intelligence agencies knew this on that day and had, therefore, prepared to pre-empt the attack by deploying men and material at the base beginning that afternoon, a top official here said. The state government had alerted New Delhi about the possible terror attack on Pathankot at around noon on January 1, saying that terrorists seemed to have infiltrated into Punjab. It was after the state’s alert, sources said, that National Security Adviser Ajit Doval called an emergency meeting and the National Security Guards (NSG) were sent to Punjab. -

Its a different thing to carry out a perfect operation in Bollywood movies and to fight on ground....Barking Dogs seldom Bite.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Are there any nukes stored in that base? If there is, than I would characterize Indian nukes as unsecured. If India cannot keep its nukes out of militants hands, it should not have nukes.

I can confirm to you that Pathankot does not house any N weapon or even a non mated warhead.. My confirmation is purely from personal capacity with people of power corridors in the GOI and all of them are non politicians. Also this was one of the first question i had asked them too.. The MIgs are not N delivery system nor any Missile group is there in pathankot..The N weapons and warheads are handled by SFC and as of now i can say it has a 7 tier security ring at multiple places across India. The inner 4 rings are manned by Units which does not exist in any books and are unaccounted for. They are chosen very early from various forces for different strategic purposes and are fully undercover. The last 3 rings are the people whom you can find in various media as protecting vital assets. Also, under the black project investment, the surveillance of inner 5th and 6th ring carries technology from Israel and that surveillance cum detection technology is not deployed in any other places in India. Lastly the tier 5, 6 and 7 unit is trained by a combination Israeli and Russian Special Forces.

So your fear of N weapons falling in rogue hands is not only a flawed logic but rather beyond comprehension. If a terrorists can get into a 7 tier security then you need to think where else they can get into in this whole world

The fwd bases atm does nt deploy any N weapon as it is peace time. IF any N weapons and N delivery system needs to be delivered India will require upto 72 hours for deployment as well as follow up measures after Nuke Strike. The follow up measures includes something similar to Cold Start Doctrine but is under another name with constitution of the forces albeit a bit different.

BTW there were 2 strike corps within touching distance of Pakistan border when this terrorists strike in Pathankot took place. The third strike corps could also come in.. If you want details here it is - The Bina based strike corp was on Rajasthan border right after the strike and Chandimandir based strike corp was guaranteed to reach in less than 24 hours The Mathura based strike corp needing mobilisation wanted 60 hours to reach their designated point. Mind you all of them are carrying conventional strike packages. This option was presented to PM NaMo by Army Chief, DM MP and NSA Doval. He btw politely said to "keep them on toes but i dont think we need to use them."

Punjab police, security forces and central intelligence agencies knew this on that day and had, therefore, prepared to pre-empt the attack by deploying men and material at the base beginning that afternoon, a top official here said. The state government had alerted New Delhi about the possible terror attack on Pathankot at around noon on January 1, saying that terrorists seemed to have infiltrated into Punjab. It was after the state’s alert, sources said, that National Security Adviser Ajit Doval called an emergency meeting and the National Security Guards (NSG) were sent to Punjab. -

The intelligence led to two part approach.. Whatever could be done inside the base it was done accordingly. Outside the base protection comes under the purview of Police for law and order, installation of multiple check posts and checking for authenticated people driving cars inside the city. It is this part which is gone kaput. The Punjab police by not doing this checking goofed up. Bcz of this inaction, they could enter with one team via Car and entrance. Mind you car was also carrying a Blue Siren.

The second team infiltration is a inside job which all evidence point to Sp and driver being part of that mission. So, deploying howsoever teams inside the base, it was evidently clear that the engagement became two front and no one knew of exact numbers. We were successful in killing them and protecting our base and civilians but there are gaps as DM MP himself admitted. We will come to know of them either publically (mostly not possible) or via sources..

 

[Stag112]

No multi million dollar assets lost like in case of mehran or kamra

No mass slaughter of our aircrew like in case of badaber

Attackers never made past periphery unlike at karachi airport.

Must be a debacle if you are on windjammers team.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

+++
The debacle painted by BBC is half truth.. The media is not having all information and are living a life based on gospels and making a killing via playing with Country's emotions.

Certain aspects need through investigations like
- What exactly happened to the SP and the driver.
- How Sp and Driver Survived?
- Why their accounts did not make Punjab police act in the evening itself.
- Why it took time to detect two teams?
- Why the drain entrance was not properly behind some permanent structure of net rather than Meshed Iron.
- When and how exactly the second team infiltrated the base.
- How many terrorists were present.
- Who detected them first, engaged, raised the alarm.
- Who did recon for the terrorists
- Who provided logistical and other military support like weapons and explosives.
- Helos used for what purpose. If it was detection using imaging techniques even in Night then why we could not detect the terrorists who were still alive by then.
- Casualties suffered by us, the nature of it and most importantly how they suffered to understand and upgrade tactics.
- Operations was over in 28 hours then for combing why still another 72 hours for full 100 hours declaration of ops over.
- Why Media was allowed near the site and updates/live coverage

We have forgotten the valor and sacrifices made by the forces. All media has carried withe them is an agenda of
drowning out the true heroes stories that foiled this attack. Journalists all over, retired forces experts, arm chair analysts have been dissecting a live body of ongoing operations and carrying it like autopsy of a dead body. All they cared is sensationalism, blame game and malafide interest to play on Civilian emotions. Even the mourning was portrayed more for emotional aspect rather than trumpeting the martyr's valor and supreme sacrifice for the nation.

Debacle is such a word to catch eye catching headlines. Its clear it serves no other purpose other than whats described above.

 

[Windjammer]

Says an armchair General who made childish conspiracy theory threads,virtually putting every international media and G5 nations to shame,who are condemning it as a terror incident.


Error

So,the childish thready has been closed by Mods,good riddance.

Oh really, well now that you have earned your brownies with your so called professional opinion, let me enlighten you, the thread wasn't closed due to the OP, since that was obtained from an Indian source, however some of your country fellows through mischief forgot that they were on an open forum and resorted to their living room manners, because these losers think using obscenities make them look tough.

 

[knight11]

Indians on the forum....do you have answer for this....
Punjab police, security forces and central intelligence agencies knew this on that day and had, therefore, prepared to pre-empt the attack by deploying men and material at the base beginning that afternoon, a top official here said. The state government had alerted New Delhi about the possible terror attack on Pathankot at around noon on January 1, saying that terrorists seemed to have infiltrated into Punjab. It was after the state’s alert, sources said, that National Security Adviser Ajit Doval called an emergency meeting and the National Security Guards (NSG) were sent to Punjab. -

The intel report was about the attack on the important defence installation, and not specifically the IAF Base.
Based on the report, the NSG men of 160 men was air lifted, and precautionary measure been taken but the terrorist breached the the IAF security perimeter indicates, internal collaboration and full security lapse knowledge to the terrorist and coming with proper planning.

Those who are jumping too much whould understand that, IAF base not only have IAF personal, but also, their families, thas why NSG was called to deal with the hostage and anti terrorist operation. Not only IAF personel, but also the traninees (Some reports suggest 26 foreign trainees), so the first priority of the NSG was to stop and curtain them to specific area, and safe guarding them.

For those who are interested, how they were able to reach pathankot, then its not our job, and everything would be speculated. Terrorist coming from Kashmir region is close to impossible. Best possible scene is from the International border, because, there are many areas, where the barbed wire, and mines (full proof border) is not possible due to many canals and river Raavi flowing.

For those who are chanting about the Role of Punjab Police and their inefficiency. Indians should avoid making any speculation statements, and let the agencies do their job. In India, Police are not heavily armed, like Pakistan -- they are mainly armed with revolver, pistol, and 303 riffles and only few elite units are armed with AK-47 and INSAS, because they are for dealing with small thugs, and not the terrorists and Army are not for fighting terrorists because if army are used to fight the unconventional war with the terrorists, it weakens the army battle fighting capabilities. Special units like RR of army are trained to fight with the terrorists, and SF are for special missions. NSG are elite group experts in hostage, and anti terror missions.

 

[Windjammer]

Pathankot Attack: For Gurdaspur Cop Who Says He Was Abducted, A 3-Hour Mystery Gap

Salwinder Singh was taken yesterday to the spot near Kolian village where he says his car was flagged down.

GURDASPUR: The police officer who has said he was abducted by Pakistani terroristsbefore they raced away with his SUV was "kidnapped" for a second time on Wednesday, with investigators recreating his encounter based on his description of what happened to him on the night of December 31.

The National Investigation Agency or NIA is deconstructing the deadly weekend terror attack that martyred seven military personnel and injured another 20 at the Pathankot air force base, just 30 kilometers from the border with Pakistan. They say that Punjab Police officerSalwinder Singh has contradicted himself, and the accounts of his two companions while elaborating on how he was carjacked by men dressed in fatigues and armed with AK-47s. The terrorists from Pakistan then entered the air force base where they began firing indiscriminately before dawn on January 2. The operations to kill them and secure the base, where fighter jets and attack helicopters are kept, took nearly 80 hours.

Mr Singh was taken yesterday to the spot near Kolian village where he says his car was flagged down. His friend, a jeweler who was driving, pulled over, he has said, because they thought they had approached a police check point. The terrorists allegedly took the jeweler with them while leaving behind the officer and his cook on the road, their arms and legs tied up.

The jeweler, Rajesh Verma, and cook, Madan Gopal, have also been questioned.

The trio was reportedly on the way back from visiting a shrine near the border when the terrorists abducted them. But investigators say that there are unsatisfactory explanations for happened over three hours between the men leaving the shrine and being attacked.

Mr Singh told NDTV earlier this week, "Hang me if I am lying." He says that after managing to unbind himself, he phoned his superiors who treated his case as one of armed robbery. Several hours were wasted in sounding an alert for the military high-value asset of the air force base.

Pathankot Attack: For Gurdaspur Cop Who Says He Was Abducted, A 3-Hour Mystery Gap

@PARIKRAMA

 

[Bornubus]

Oh really, well now that you have earned your brownies with your so called professional opinion, let me enlighten you, the thread wasn't closed due to the OP, since that was obtained from an Indian source, however some of your country fellows through mischief forgot that they were on an open forum and resorted to their living room manners, because these losers think using obscenities make them look tough.

That thread was removed not closed,I am least concerned about your opinion for Indians.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Pathankot Attack: For Gurdaspur Cop Who Says He Was Abducted, A 3-Hour Mystery Gap

Salwinder Singh was taken yesterday to the spot near Kolian village where he says his car was flagged down.

GURDASPUR: The police officer who has said he was abducted by Pakistani terroristsbefore they raced away with his SUV was "kidnapped" for a second time on Wednesday, with investigators recreating his encounter based on his description of what happened to him on the night of December 31.

The National Investigation Agency or NIA is deconstructing the deadly weekend terror attack that martyred seven military personnel and injured another 20 at the Pathankot air force base, just 30 kilometers from the border with Pakistan. They say that Punjab Police officerSalwinder Singh has contradicted himself, and the accounts of his two companions while elaborating on how he was carjacked by men dressed in fatigues and armed with AK-47s. The terrorists from Pakistan then entered the air force base where they began firing indiscriminately before dawn on January 2. The operations to kill them and secure the base, where fighter jets and attack helicopters are kept, took nearly 80 hours.

Mr Singh was taken yesterday to the spot near Kolian village where he says his car was flagged down. His friend, a jeweler who was driving, pulled over, he has said, because they thought they had approached a police check point. The terrorists allegedly took the jeweler with them while leaving behind the officer and his cook on the road, their arms and legs tied up.

The jeweler, Rajesh Verma, and cook, Madan Gopal, have also been questioned.

The trio was reportedly on the way back from visiting a shrine near the border when the terrorists abducted them. But investigators say that there are unsatisfactory explanations for happened over three hours between the men leaving the shrine and being attacked.

Mr Singh told NDTV earlier this week, "Hang me if I am lying." He says that after managing to unbind himself, he phoned his superiors who treated his case as one of armed robbery. Several hours were wasted in sounding an alert for the military high-value asset of the air force base.

Pathankot Attack: For Gurdaspur Cop Who Says He Was Abducted, A 3-Hour Mystery Gap

@PARIKRAMA

Windy Bhai, NIA is investigating it big time.. Everything every angle.. give some time to them and to GOI.. We will find the truth and world will know too..Till that time, we have to be patient...

 

[faithfulguy]

OK, so should we sell them? Do provide contact details of nuclear dalal AQ Khan to Indian govt so that the process can be smooth.

Actually, you can dispose of them with UN supervision.

 

[Donald Trump]

"Four days to neutralise no more than five or six militants is unacceptable in a confined open space where there is little or no scope of any civilian collateral damage," he added.

'Confined space'? Does this idiot even know that the airbase has a 26 km circumference? Let's see if he can search the area even in one month! And there's elephant grass 8 ft high in the area as well as schools, shopping centres, residential accommodation and so on in the area which is a city in itself. And then there are terrorists to contend with. Collateral damage has to be kept in mind too.

Everyone suddenly becomes an expert in anti terror ops especially journalists who haven't even fired an air gun in their pathetic lives.

 

[axisofevil]

A

True. This could be a prep to steal nukes. Are there any nukes stored in that base? If there is, than I would characterize Indian nukes as unsecured. If India cannot keep its nukes out of militants hands, it should not have nukes.



A soldier should anticipate war at all times. Peace is just a break from combat.

Regardless of what they should anticipate....in the real world and throughout history......nobody has shown they are immune to boredom.

 

[MilSpec]

Be ready for a surge in attacks, and huge casualties in coming months. NDA is showing the same spinelessness as UPA.

"Unfamilliar with the terrian"? What an entirely stupid thing that keeps getting parroted on blindly. This was not Mars, this was terrain all would have been trained to operate in-the NSG's by nature will be operating in locations that they may not have specifically conducted drills in before but so what? Has the Army's SF been throgh every inch of that base before hand?


No, operational control remained with the NSG at all points- does this idiot really expect us to beleive that the DSC had operational charge of this mission at any point? This is intellectual dishonesty and this clown is purposely trying to disparage this operation.



Makes an entirely unquantafied "Garuds continue to struggle for operational relevance"- doesn't expand on how this affected the operational element of this operation.

So the Garuds were just flapping about, running around asking their leadership "what am I? what do I do? Please, what is my operational relevance??" whilst this fight was on? This seems to be the scenerio this scumbag is trying to imply. Just because he doesn't know what the role of the Garuds is doesn't mean they don't and it doesn't mean his ignorance should translate into belittling the capabilities of men who spend 3 years training just to become part of this unit.



How does being unacquainted with the terrain lead to the loss of life in that incident? Again, an attempt to present half truths to back up a flawed hypothesis.

And not losses plural- a loss, singular (still one too many).

How can he know what would and hwat would not have "fooled the army", is he aware of the exact nature of the incident? Is he claiming that the head of the NSG's bomb disposal unit didn't know what he was doing? Is he ignoring the fact that this officer came from THE EXACT SAME ARMY that he claims would have known better- just because?


Simply a lie. Actually look at the NSG today and tell me they are "strapped for equipment".


Another blatent lie.



A base measuring half the landmass of Mumbai is hardly a confined space. And this analysis entirely ignores the Indian military's established CT doctrine that is to attempt to catch such guys alive and to refrain from declaring an operation over until an offical "render safe" procedure has taken place.




On the very last line the entire basis for this being a success is presented, "one of the upsides"- presenting the success of the sole objective of this mission (and primary target of the terrorists) being acheived in such a diminshed manner so as to make this detail seem almost trival is almost unfathomable.


This is typical mentality of the Indian media/intellectuals who seem to look for faults in every single incident of this nature, even when operations were going on you had scoundrels like Burkha Dutt asking why the NSG had not replaced the DSC for perimiter security duties. However this analysis is a step further, it doesn't seem to be the result of pure ignorance (as is the general trait in the Indian media) but a clear agenda to see failure. This peice isn't just asking questions but presenting blatent lies and misrepresenting the truth, it is unacceptable.


Oh and presenting the death of the NSG's BDS head as incompetence on his part was a particuarly classy argument.


Only in India do you get the space for this kind of questioning not only as the operation is still going on but before it is even clear what exactly has happened, before a full account is even made public and without any facts whatsoever to base criticsm on. In a natio of a billion you'll always find enough idiots to argue what you like but that doesn't mean you give them the platform to do it. Contrast this to the coverage of the Paris attacks.


@PARIKRAMA @Vauban @Levina @Echo_419 @MilSpec @ranjeet @hinduguy @Star Wars @Koovie

 

[The Eagle]

• 6 January 2016

Image copyrightAFP
Image captionIndian forces have been searching the base for remnants of the group that attacked it

It took Indian authorities four days to put down a deadly attack on the Pathankot air force base near the Pakistani border which killed seven Indian soldiers and wounded another 22. The inept handling of the security operation can only be described as a debacle, writes defence analyst Rahul Bedi.

According to official accounts, the National Security Adviser Ajit Doval had advance intelligence of the planned attack on 1 January.

But military analysts said India's response to the attack was amateurish - there were inadequate offensive measures and the multiplicity of forces involved and a lack of suitable equipment rendered the entire operation a near fiasco.

When the attack began, Mr Doval chose to airlift some 150 National Security Guard (NSG) personnel from their base at Manesar, on Delhi's outskirts, to fight in an unfamiliar terrain.

Image copyrightAFP
Image captionIndia's National Security Guard headed the counter-strike operation at Pathankot
The operational command for the mission was handed over to the NSG, the Defence Service Corps (DSC) and the air force's Garud Special Forces.

The DSC comprises retired and unmotivated military personnel, whilst the Garuds continue to struggle for operational relevance amongst the plethora of India's burgeoning Special Forces.

In what appeared to be an obvious desire to control the operation, Mr Doval ignored the presence of some 50,000 army troops in the Pathankot region, possibly the highest such concentration in the country.

Reports said he requested the army chief for just two columns - 50-60 troops - to provide back-up support to the operation.

The army, say security officials, is experienced in battling Kashmiri insurgents.

The NSG, for its part, was unacquainted with the terrain and took avoidable losses that included Lieutenant-Colonel Niranjan Kumar being killed in a grenade explosion from a booby trapped militant's body.

Image copyrightAFP
Image captionDefence Minister Manohar Parrikar admitted that there were "some gaps in the operations"

Four other NSG personnel were injured in this blast that - in all probability - would not have fooled the army, familiar with such militant ploys of activating a grenade and lying on it as a last offensive act.

The NSG is also strapped for equipment - it has no competent night vision devices and other materiel necessary for an operation of the kind in Pathankot - military sources said.

Throughout the four days the operation lasted, the army was accorded a marginal role - although some 200 soldiers were eventually deployed when fighting stretched beyond 48 hours and after senior ministers - including Prime Minister Narendra Modi, Home Minister Rajnath Singh and Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar - had announced that the operation had been completed successfully.

The congratulatory messages followed the gunning down of four terrorists, but thereafter firing began afresh, and confusion prevailed over how many gunmen were hiding in the tall grass surrounding the air base, spread over some 1,200 hectares.

Image copyrightAP
Image captionNSG Lt-Col Niranjan Kumar was killed in a grenade explosion from a booby trapped militant's body

Sporadic gunfire, interspersed with grenade explosions, could be heard from inside the base until late on Monday night, security sources said, but they seemed unsure of the ground situation prevailing inside.

"Operations to eliminate the militants are in the final stages," deputy NSG commandant Major-General Dushyant Singh said on Monday afternoon.

On Tuesday, Defence Minister Parrikar told a press conference that "six militants have been neutralised" but added that sanitising the complex is likely to take a long time.

"I see some gaps in the operations, but I don't think we compromised on security," he said.

Analysts said the operational blunders committed by Indian security forces during the November 2008 militant attack on Mumbai, in which 166 people died, were mindlessly repeated in Pathankot due to a lack of well defined procedures.

Initially in Mumbai, the local police force was deployed against the 10 gunmen.

They were later replaced by the Indian Navy's Marine Commandoes (MARCOS) Special Forces.

Image copyrightEPA
Image captionThe Pathankot air force base extends over about 1,200 hectares

Army commandos then swapped roles with the MARCOS at the three attack venues in Mumbai - two hotels and a Jewish cultural centre.

The army was eventually substituted by the NSG, which took nearly 12 hours to reach Mumbai.

"The assortment of security agencies involved in the Pathankot operation, without a single, effective point of control, adversely [affected] the outcome," military analyst retired Maj-Gen Sheru Thapliyal said.

"Four days to neutralise no more than five or six militants is unacceptable in a confined open space where there is little or no scope of any civilian collateral damage," he added.

It appears the one upside of the entire operation was that the security forces were able to prevent the militants from sabotaging any air force "assets" - like Mig-21 fighters and attack helicopters.

Why India's response to Pathankot attack was 'a debacle' - BBC News

They have been continuously reporting about attack so also many times mentioned sound of blasts and smoke that can be seen and fully biased with Pak-phobia, wouldn't they lie for the damage despite mentioning few lives lost to cover their face if it was a 4 days attack and op? PS. there would be a lot damage but will never disclose otherwise the list of questioning their ability would have taken 8 days to answer it one by one.