Why India needs to rethink the Rafale deal

[sancho]

With that much money involved , Rafale is not going to fulfill the required squadron numbers.
But the minimal squadrons of Rafale is expected to bring useful technology and co operation which will help domestic and JV projects attain that numbers at faster/ quicker rate.

It never was aimed on giving the squadron numbers, since MRCA and M-MRCA were only considered as a side procurement next to the LCA development, not as an alternative to LCA. The later change to M-MRCA was meant to bring exactly the technology and industrial advantages you mentioned, so that's according to the plan, the only problem is the slow progress of the tender.

If India remains Rafale's partner, the next gen Rafale will be a joint Indo-french project and these same production lines will be producing them for domestic and export purposes.

That's sadly the disappointing part, since Dassault don't offer a partnership nor have the intention to see India as a partner for joint Rafale upgrade standards. We will be able to get a customized version and as part of the ToT / offset requirements we will produce parts that can be exported (airframe, optronics, avionics possibly radar and engine parts), but that's outsourcing production to reduce costs, not joint development. That's where the EF could had offered more potential benefits.

 

[NKVD]

Officially given with 6.5t so no advantage for LCA here



Composites benefits to an extent, the real change compared to older gen fighters is the use of coatings and Gripen is developed with a low RCS in mind just as any modern 4th gen fighter, including the use of composites, coatings and radar blockers.



Oh please, we neither know the diameter, nor do we have official specs so far, what we do know however is, that it has performance problems because of the nose issue, so claiming an advantage for LCA at this point is totally unrealistic!

It doesn't matter if LCA is better than Gripen, but how close it can be, because it never was meant to be a hi end fighter, but our first own modern fighter project. The closer we can bring it to Gripen standards, the more we have catched up in modern aero development. We have made good progress in materials, coatings, avionics an EW and can compare LCA with western fighters in these fields, are on a good way at weapons, but still struggle in fighter design.
So lets not make LCA better or more special than it is just to make a point, but be happy about the progress it gives India in the aero sector and the successful development parts.

Really you Know Me @sancho Sorry to Get your Attention I Was Just Trolling The Troll If What you Got from Me Seeing My Previous Posts

 

[Lostsoldier]

50 JF-17 built. Only 2 LCA built and they are not cleared yet still being tested.

15 planes have been built Don't type like an ignorant. LCA is versatile acts as a navy, airforce and trainer plane.

 

[Superboy]

15 planes have been built Don't type like an ignorant. LCA is versatile acts as a navy, airforce and trainer plane.

Only 2 LCA SP compared to 50 JF-17 SP. In fact, the 2 LCA SP are still undergoing testing.

 

[sancho]

Really you Know Me Sorry to Get your Attention I Was Just Trolling The Troll If What you Got from Me Seeing My Previous Posts

And maybe that's why I chose to counter like this (and get you out of more trouble) and bring the discussion back on reasonable talk. Better me than somebody else.

15 planes have been built Don't type like an ignorant. LCA is versatile acts as a navy, airforce and trainer plane.

Don't feed the troll please.

 

[Lostsoldier]

Only 2 LCA SP compared to 50 JF-17 SP. In fact, the 2 LCA SP are still undergoing testing.

Well I didn't know that you were talking about sp

 

[sancho]

Rafale is a good aircraft which was produced after a legacy of fighter aircrafts by the French. The French were so up beat to this fighter aircraft that they left the Eurofighter project.

The only reason was that they did not want to be submitting to the other partner European countries plan to close the Dasult name.

In hindsight the EF partners surely regret that they didn't kept the French and heared more on them for the design and development of the joint fighter. Rafale turned out to be more advanced, more multi role capable and even more suitable for the British navy, than the EF. Think about what they could have achieved if they had put their egos and national interests aside and what potential a joint EF had on the export market.

A Rafale in the size of the EF, with SPECTRA and FSO- TV, but the PIRATE IRST, EJ 200 engine and HMS, MICA, AASM, Brimstone, Scalp / Storm Shadow, poltically backed up by France, UK, Germany...

 

[Derolo]

Bharat Karnad is category A moron.

LCA Tejas won't come into service for another 5 years as an operational squadron.

The 126 Rafales are of utmost importance. After IAF has inducted them the Navy should place a 2 sqn size order for equipping the Vikrant and Vishal. Vikrant will carry a hybrid mix of Mig-29K and Rafale-M. Vishal will be mostly Rafale-M.

Then later IAF can execute the follow up order of 63 planes (3 squadrons) taking total Rafales in IAF to 189 (9 squadrons)

The price of Rafale is highly exaggerated by media sources.

The accurate price is $85 million per plane and add $10 million for AESA and other upgrades.

The deal for the planes is only $12 billion. Add another $1 billion for missiles and bombs.

Rest of the cost is the cost of domestic manufacturing. Land acquisition. Setting up assembly lines. Paying employee salary. Some ToT costs. 95% of this money will be circulated in the Indian economy with a large part returning to the government in form of fees and taxes.

$13 billion for 126 Rafales is a killer deal.

 

[Derolo]

Only 2 LCA SP compared to 50 JF-17 SP. In fact, the 2 LCA SP are still undergoing testing.

2 LCA SP? When the 2nd one come out?

Only SP-1 exists. In form of a flying object wings attached to fuselage. No weapons integration nothing

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

In hindsight the EF partners surely regret that they didn't kept the French and heared more on them for the design and development of the joint fighter. Rafale turned out to be more advanced, more multi role capable and even more suitable for the British navy, than the EF. Think about what they could have achieved if they had put their egos and national interests aside and what potential a joint EF had on the export market.

A Rafale in the size of the EF, with SPECTRA and FSO- TV, but the PIRATE IRST, EJ 200 engine and HMS, MICA, AASM, Brimstone, Scalp / Storm Shadow, poltically backed up by France, UK, Germany...

Agreed.

Still Hubris is what a man lives for.

 

[Derolo]

Best to stay away from EF Typhoon.

Its a hanger queen. Too many defects.

Also Germans can't be trusted as they blocked delivery of 2 Type-209 series 1500 submarines (Shisumar) due to nuclear test and kargil war. Plus Finemaccia the Italian company in EFT consortium is blacklisted.

Compare to French who gave us source codes to modify M2K for high altitude bombing in Kargil to prevent any more Nachiketa type incidents

 

[sancho]

Agreed.

Still Hubris is what a man lives for.

True, countries that live in the same area, with similar culture, but are seperated by egos and national pride, sounds familiar right?

 

[Derolo]

In hindsight the EF partners surely regret that they didn't kept the French and heared more on them for the design and development of the joint fighter. Rafale turned out to be more advanced, more multi role capable and even more suitable for the British navy, than the EF. Think about what they could have achieved if they had put their egos and national interests aside and what potential a joint EF had on the export market.

A Rafale in the size of the EF, with SPECTRA and FSO- TV, but the PIRATE IRST, EJ 200 engine and HMS, MICA, AASM, Brimstone, Scalp / Storm Shadow, poltically backed up by France, UK, Germany...

Same goes for the tanks of europe.

Challenger for UK.
Leclerc for France.
Leopard for Germany.
Ariete for Italy.
List goes on.

A single tank by them all would have beaten the T-90 hands down.