Why has Pakistan failed in making its own version of the IITs?

[Passionaire]

I guess in Pakistan we have CIIT (COMSATS Institute of Information Technology). We have 8 CIITs in Pakistan. Each CIIT has separate degree awarding status.

 

[JonAsad]

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[amardeep mishra]

That may be true for now. As more and more Indians go abroad and study at many world class institutions (after studying at IITs) they will achieve critical mass and start returning back. This has happened in China and is (and will) happening in India. A 'reverse brain-drain'.

When a country sends maybe a 0.01% of its graduates abroad they stay abroad. When it sends more and more like 10%-30% abroad a significant proportion of that starts coming back bringing back with them technology, skills and a better work ethos with them. I believe this will or is already happening with India. I personally know many many Indians that have chosen to go back to India. Sadly, not many Pakistanis here (University of Michigan) want to go back (there aren't many either). I would say this would come down to how many actually come abroad. If many more Pakistanis studied abroad as well and reached a 'critical mass' a reverse brain drain would also begin for Pakistan.

At UMich I see a 200 Indians for every Pakistani. And before you say their population is larger, its not 200 times ours. It is only 7 times as much. Even if 10 of the 200 Indians choose to go back they will have a huge impact.

Hi dear @JamD
I completely agree with what you are saying,I am here at IIT madras and i can say with full confidence that majority of faculty here are the product of IITM itself and then went to US for Phd and came back in late 90s/early 2000s and are faculty here. Most of them are from MIT,georgia tech,michigan univ, and so on. In fact if you take any of the 5 top IITs,you will find that the particular faculty is a btech from any of the IITs/NITs and Phd from abroad.
Heck,we even got a chinese professor here who is a graduate of some chinese engineering institute and MS/PHD from US.
The hallmark of IIT system is the RIGOR! I am sure those of you pakistanis who ever came across any grads from any of the top 5 IITs would know what I am saying. Pakistan doesnt have centrally planned and structured IIT system kindly note the words- "centrally planned and structured".

 

[niaz]

With all due respect sir but what has Pervaiz Hoodbhoy done for Pakistan instead of just criticizing, writing baseless and idiotic articles of removing our Nuclear Weapons or attacking our Military institutions or bashing Islam. He is a nuclear physicists but what has he done for Pakistan to make our country a better place instead of being a judgmental prick, throwing his weight around, playing the blame game and considering himself to be some kind of an intellectual mastermind.

I am a 25 year old graduate and in the process of becoming an Android developer and already I am thinking of 5 to 6 years down the road, I'm thinking ok after learning Android I'm going to work for 5 to 6 years on various software houses and then later on I'm going to be a freelance developer and start my own school where I will teach Android/iOS development for free and will encourage my future students to do the same thing of what I will do, usually these courses cost around 10k dollars in the west and many of my friend are thinking along those lines, so you see we are thinking of how we can make Pakistan a better place, and this guy is writing articles of how Pakistani nuclear weapons should be removed, going to India bashing and maligning Pakistan, we are fully aware of the disaster Pakistan has faced because of the corrupt political parties and leaders, the question is what are you doing or going to do to make Pakistan strong again instead of pointing fingers.

Honourable Waqkz,

Are we judging him because he is against Pakistan’s nuclear program or him as a teacher & as a scientist? The judgement criterion should be defined. Criterion of a scientist is what his peers think about him. The very fact that he was invited by the Indians on an 11 day 12 Lecture tour speaks well of him.

Here we are discussing his impressions about India and his questioning as to why Pakistan does not have Institutes of Information Technology of the same standards as in India. Pray tell me how and where ‘secularism’ come into it?

As posted earlier, I have never met Pervez Hoodbhoy hence am totally neutral towards him. However I am aware that he graduated and later got his Ph.D. from MIT, an institute of the highest standard in the world. Many Pakistanis with good educational qualifications (me included) move out of Pakistan for the sake of economic gains. Hoodbhoy taught at Quaid e Azam University for almost 30 years and later helped set up National Centre of Physics, he therefore benefited his country from his knowledge. If you think that Hoodbhoy has done nothing for Pakistan, this is your view point which is not necessarily correct.

Finally, the work you are doing is commendable. Pakistan needs bright young men like you and I wish you success in all your endeavours. My brotherly advice would be that an intelligent man like you should not let personal likes & dislikes cloud his judgement about a person’s worth in his own field.

 

[JamD]

Not many Pakistani students go to the U.S

Germany and Australia are the two top destinations these days.

Yes that is indeed true. But most of the time it isn't because they don't want to, it's that they cant. Would most students really choose to study in Australia or Germany if they were given the option to study in America as well? I doubt that, but that's just me.

I think that fact too should tell us something. That:
-we aren't that rich to send so many of us to America (which is expensive)
-we don't produce enough capable students that are able to get scholarships either.

I think both of these factors are contributing to this vacuum in america of pakistanis. Frankly I feel overwhelmed here and it makes me sad that more pf.my countrymen aren't here to take this knowledge back.

And like someone pointed out even if they don't come back and if the community becomes large enough and influential it gives great benefit to the country back home. We lack on both fronts. I really wish we didnt.

Honourable Waqkz,

Are we judging him because he is against Pakistan’s nuclear program or him as a teacher & as a scientist? The judgement criterion should be defined. Criterion of a scientist is what his peers think about him. The very fact that he was invited by the Indians on an 11 day 12 Lecture tour speaks well of him.

Here we are discussing his impressions about India and his questioning as to why Pakistan does not have Institutes of Information Technology of the same standards as in India. Pray tell me how and where ‘secularism’ come into it?

As posted earlier, I have never met Pervez Hoodbhoy hence am totally neutral towards him. However I am aware that he graduated and later got his Ph.D. from MIT, an institute of the highest standard in the world. Many Pakistanis with good educational qualifications (me included) move out of Pakistan for the sake of economic gains. Hoodbhoy taught at Quaid e Azam University for almost 30 years and later helped set up National Centre of Physics, he therefore benefited his country from his knowledge. If you think that Hoodbhoy has done for nothing for Pakistan, this is your view point which is not necessarily correct.

Finally, the work you are doing is commendable. Pakistan needs bright young men like you and I wish you success in all your endeavours. My brotherly advice would be that an intelligent man like you should not let personal likes & dislikes cloud his judgement about a person’s worth in his own field.

Just to add to your point in a loosely related way. If there was one thing I would take back from American professors, it is this.
: Humility and their utmost respect for their peers. The bigger deal the professor is, the humbler he is. They don't pull each other down. Criticism is taken positively and not as in insult because they are humble. I wish more pakistanis adopt this culture. Sounds mundane and obvious but it makes a world of a difference on an educational environment.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Yes that is indeed true. But most of the time it isn't because they don't want to, it's that they cant. Would most students really choose to study in Australia or Germany if they were given the option to study in America as well? I doubt that, but that's just me.

I think that fact too should tell us something. That:
-we aren't that rich to send so many of us to America (which is expensive)
-we don't produce enough capable students that are able to get scholarships either.

I think both of these factors are contributing to this vacuum in america of pakistanis. Frankly I feel overwhelmed here and it makes me sad that more pf.my countrymen aren't here to take this knowledge back.

And like someone pointed out even if they don't come back and if the community becomes large enough and influential it gives great benefit to the country back home. We lack on both fronts. I really wish we didnt.


Just to add to your point in a loosely related way. If there was one thing I would take back from American professors, it is this.
: Humility and their utmost respect for their peers. The bigger deal the professor is, the humbler he is. They don't pull each other down. Criticism is taken positively and not as in insult because they are humble. I wish more pakistanis adopt this culture. Sounds mundane and obvious but it makes a world of a difference on an educational environment.

hi dear @JamD
You have summed up the situation pretty well,but what do you think are the reasons why pakistan couldnt replicate the "centrally planned and structured" IIT system ?

Kindly Note that by Centrally planned and structured I mean- that the system is autonomous and completely out of purview of indian polity- which means indian politicians or the ruling govt has no control over the system.
And by "centrally planned" means there is a central committee that conducts an all-india level exam(one of the toughest in the world!) and another committee for allocation of seats into IITs based on the all-india rank

Here i would like to clarify a couple of points-
IIT and IIIT are two very different set of universities(although both of them take students from centrally planned JEE- joint entrance exam).
IITs are general engineering colleges where the focus is more on industrial research whereas IIIT as the name suggests is more focussed towards computer sciences/algorithms and IT.
A lot of students from IITs go on to become faculty at MIT,caltech and others. Anant agarwal(professor of analog electronics at MIT) is an aluminus of my college here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anant_Agarwal
https://people.csail.mit.edu/agarwal/
IIITH(where Mr perverz hoodbhoy was invited) is the best IIIT in india. The output or the students who come out of IIIT-hyderabad are some of the best coders in india with solid understanding of algorithms.

 

[arbit]

IITs are the brand they are only because the best talent of India is very effectively channelized towards these institutes.
Every child who goes through schooling system in urban, semi urban and now even rural areas are made to opt between science stream, commerce stream or Arts.

And for a science stream student, like a horse with blinkers, the only thing visible are IITs.

The day when a brand of institution becomes end all and be all for engineering aspirants, Pakistan will have its version of IITs.

More importantly, for that to happen, you have to bring ALL of the students from ALL strata of society into technical education form the very beginning. That means getting out of the mentality of madarsa being the only option for financially weaker students etc.

 

[Indra....]

Hi dear @JamD
I completely agree with what you are saying,I am here at IIT madras and i can say with full confidence that majority of faculty here are the product of IITM itself and then went to US for Phd and came back in late 90s/early 2000s and are faculty here. Most of them are from MIT,georgia tech,michigan univ, and so on. In fact if you take any of the 5 top IITs,you will find that the particular faculty is a btech from any of the IITs/NITs and Phd from abroad.
Heck,we even got a chinese professor here who is a graduate of some chinese engineering institute and MS/PHD from US.
The hallmark of IIT system is the RIGOR! I am sure those of you pakistanis who ever came across any grads from any of the top 5 IITs would know what I am saying. Pakistan doesnt have centrally planned and structured IIT system kindly note the words- "centrally planned and structured".

Same here at IIT Guwahati. Majority of faculty at IITG are also Graduates of IITs and Phd of foreign universities and more or less it is same in case of any other IIT.

 

[JamD]

hi dear @JamD
You have summed up the situation pretty well,but what do you think are the reasons why pakistan couldnt replicate the "centrally planned and structured" IIT system ?

Kindly Note that by Centrally planned and structured I mean- that the system is autonomous and completely out of purview of indian polity- which means indian politicians or the ruling govt has no control over the system.
And by "centrally planned" means there is a central committee that conducts an all-india level exam(one of the toughest in the world!) and another committee for allocation of seats into IITs based on the all-india rank

Here i would like to clarify a couple of points-
IIT and IIIT are two very different set of universities(although both of them take students from centrally planned JEE- joint entrance exam).
IITs are general engineering colleges where the focus is more on industrial research whereas IIIT as the name suggests is more focussed towards computer sciences/algorithms and IT.
A lot of students from IITs go on to become faculty at MIT,caltech and others. Anant agarwal(professor of analog electronics at MIT) is an aluminus of my college here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anant_Agarwal
https://people.csail.mit.edu/agarwal/
IIITH(where Mr perverz hoodbhoy was invited) is the best IIIT in india. The output or the students who come out of IIIT-hyderabad are some of the best coders in india with solid understanding of algorithms.

At the risk of over simplifying a complex issue if I had to pick one huge factor it would be what the PPP government did to the HEC when they came to power. Sure, HEC had its flaws but it was making progress at a stupendous rate and we would've seen extremely remarkable things had it been allowed to continue. Now it has become like most other institutions, 'sarkari idara'. We have a gem in Dr.Atta Ur Rehman. I have had the honour of meeting him once. He is such a sweet man and he had and still has such great visions for higher education in Pakistan. It's just sad how it's not enough not to help someone doing good but to actively stop someone from doing good. I'm going to stop before I get angrier.

 

[marbella]

I see many people opposing him including some doctors such as dr. amir liaqat, dr. agha waqar, zaid hamid, fareed paracha, junaid salim, azizi, ji brigade..

 

[MKC]

Comparing IITs with CIITs & UETs is not good idea because I think all the campuses of these institutions lacks autonomy while all the IITs have autonomy. Number of students in IITs are in range of 10,000(I don't know about CIITs & UETs).
In terms of centralized institutions, India have
7 AIIMS All India Institute of Medical Sciences(Delhi, Bhopal, Jodhpur, Bhubaneswar, Patna, Raipur, Rishikesh)
Following are the upcoming and planned AIIMS:
Mangalagiri, Andhra Pradesh; Rae Bareli, Uttar Pradesh; Kalyani, West Bengal; Gorakhpur, Uttar Pradesh; Bathinda, Punjab; Madurai, Tamil Nadu; Bilaspur, Himachal Pradesh;Jammu Jammu and Kashmir; Srinagar Jammu and Kashmir; Assam; Bihar.
30 NITs (National Institutes of Technology) in all states.
IIITs (Indian Institutes of Information Technology) are four central funded & 18 are Central+State+a Private Company(on PPP) & 20 more proposed.
8 IIITs(International Institute of Information Technology)
6 IISER +2 Future(Indian Institutes of Science Education and Research) for basic sciences.
3 SPAs(School of Planning and Architecture).
18 IITs + 4 more from 2016 + 1 big ISM Dhanbad will be converted to IIT.

All of these institutions have complete autonomy & except IIITs all are central Govt funded.
When it comed to other institutions
BITS, Pilani has centres at Goa, Hyderabad and Dubai. There are two more proposed BITS centres coming up at Visakhapatnam and Bhubaneswar.
Birla Institute of Technology, Mesra has extension centers in Jaipur, Noida, Kolkata, Patna, Ranchi, Deoghar and Offshore Centres at Ras al-Khaimah,UAE and Muscat.
Manipal University has branch campuses in Bangalore, Mangalore, Sikkim, Jaipur & Dubai, Malaysia and Antigua.
Amity University
Amity University, Noida has its campus located at Sector-125, Noida.
The newest campus established by Amity is Amity University West Bengal.
Amity University, Noida has its sister universities at Lucknow, Jaipur, Amity University, Gurgaon, Gwalior, Mumbai and Kolkata.
Amity University has business schools across various cities in India under the name of Amity Global Business School, in Mumbai, Ahmedabad, Bangalore, Bhubaneswar,Chandigarh, Chennai, Gurgaon, Gwalior, Greater Noida, Hyderabad, Indore, Jaipur, Kochi, Kolkata, Lucknow, Noida, Raipur, Patna, and Pune.

Amity University additionally operates international campuses in London, Dubai, Singapore, Mauritius, New Jersey, and China.

I guess in Pakistan we have CIIT (COMSATS Institute of Information Technology). We have 8 CIITs in Pakistan. Each CIIT has separate degree awarding status.

There are lots of excellent engineering colleges in Pakistan, there is the UET group which is our version of IIT; at Taxila, Lahore, Peshawar, Narowal, Multan, Faisalabad, Bannu, Khuzdar, Quetta, Bahawalpur.Then there is NUST, NED Group in Sindh.

 

[Winchester]

Yes that is indeed true. But most of the time it isn't because they don't want to, it's that they cant. Would most students really choose to study in Australia or Germany if they were given the option to study in America as well? I doubt that, but that's just me.

I think that fact too should tell us something. That:
-we aren't that rich to send so many of us to America (which is expensive)
-we don't produce enough capable students that are able to get scholarships either.

I think both of these factors are contributing to this vacuum in america of pakistanis. Frankly I feel overwhelmed here and it makes me sad that more pf.my countrymen aren't here to take this knowledge back.

And like someone pointed out even if they don't come back and if the community becomes large enough and influential it gives great benefit to the country back home. We lack on both fronts. I really wish we didnt.


Just to add to your point in a loosely related way. If there was one thing I would take back from American professors, it is this.
: Humility and their utmost respect for their peers. The bigger deal the professor is, the humbler he is. They don't pull each other down. Criticism is taken positively and not as in insult because they are humble. I wish more pakistanis adopt this culture. Sounds mundane and obvious but it makes a world of a difference on an educational environment.

The full bright scholarships available to Pakistanis are all utilized but then that is it.

The cost factor plus the misplaced apprehension of the visa process plays a major part.

Another factor is the role of student immigration businesses who discourage students from exploring the U.S option because these businesses as opposed to Australia have very limited excess in America.

Your average Pakistani student will first go to these guys to get an idea about which country is the best for him to eventually settle down.

 

[JamD]

The full bright scholarships available to Pakistanis are all utilized but then that is it.

The cost factor plus the misplaced apprehension of the visa process plays a major part.

Another factor is the role of student immigration businesses who discourage students from exploring the U.S option because these businesses as opposed to Australia have very limited excess in America.

Your average Pakistani student will first go to these guys to get an idea about which country is the best for him to eventually settle down.

I am a Fulbrighter myself. It's ridiculous how many Pakistani fulbrighters are funded by the US. It's the biggest fulbright program by a long shot.

Yes you're right on all points.

 

[Ocelot]

dr. agha waqar

------------------

Well..it's brand positioning at work. You make people believe that certain institutes are great, the best talent would apply for it. If Pakistan tries to hype one university so much that student with best talents only apply for it, it'll become its version of IIT. It'll begin making inroads in universal rankings, albeit at the expense of other institutions.

 

[amardeep mishra]

------------------

Well..it's brand positioning at work. You make people believe that certain institutes are great, the best talent would apply for it. If Pakistan tries to hype one university so much that student with best talents only apply for it, it'll become its version of IIT. It'll begin making inroads in universal rankings, albeit at the expense of other institutions.

Wrong! You need to be below an AIR of 6000 or so to get into any decent branch in any of the iits out of supposedly 16lakh students.I hope you get my point.
Competition in India especially to get into first five IITs is way more tougher than you can possibly imagine.JEE- exam is perhaps one of the most toughest exam out there, there was an American documentary made on IIT-JEE.
The campus atmosphere, research culture,placement trends at iits are something that are oblivious in Pakistan.if Pakistani govt is serious in creating IITs, then they'd have to bring out structural reforms in higher education. Especially centrally planned and autonomous system- that is the hallmark of IIT system.
At present there are no centrally planned and fully autonomous university in Pakistan that is completely outside of political interference by the govt