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Why Does the Muslim World Lag in Science?

It's sad that such a delightful topic has to be sullied by some Indian's take on history - presumably the Indian will argue wars by non-Muslims ushered in ages of great learning - just sad that such an interesting topic should fall victim to these johnny come lately types and their jinoistic and motivated version of history - and ofcourse Wikipedia as source:crazy::wave:

I agree. I have been following history of finance pretty closely recently. I've read many of the source texts in Sanskrit and translations from Chinese/Arabic texts.

And what I see is that Chinese invent something first, then totally ignore their invention (Branches of math, paper money etc.) . Meanwhile an Indian (usually a prince or a minister) copies most of the stuff and converts the whole thing into sanskrit poetry or a lawbook. A few centuries pass and an Arab trader picks it up and refines it to make it practical and makes a lot of money.Europeans trade with them, but in the dark ages never learn a thing from Arabs.Then comes renaissance, the Europeans pick up all the great ideas of the world (Roman, Greek and Arab) and spread it around the world.Arabia goes into decline and Indians/Chinese remain isolated by languages and culture.This happens to paper money, Silk, Tea, Interest rate calculations, corporations/partnerships etc. etc.

Meanwhile isolated communities around the world invent the same concept in an entirely different manner but never spread their ideas elsewhere.

I am guessing story of science is something similar. There is not much of unique credit to be taken for anything by any religion or country.
 
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Smart man, Leibniz.

A good man too. But Newton is said to have utterly enjoyed destroying his reputation in the calculus controversies while at the same time actively working on more literal interpretations of the bible. Leibnitz died pretty much unattended, out-of-favour with Kings. Newton on the other hand became a favorite of the church and the kings. He thought he had found the hidden hand of god in the laws of physics.

Leibniz and Newton calculus controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
An Historical Account of Two Notable Corruptions of Scripture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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A good man too. But Newton is said to have utterly enjoyed destroying his reputation in the calculus controversies while at the same time actively working on more literal interpretations of the bible. Leibnitz died pretty much unattended, out-of-favour with Kings. Newton on the other hand became a favorite of the church and the kings. He thought he had found the hidden hand of god in the laws of physics.

Leibniz and Newton calculus controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
An Historical Account of Two Notable Corruptions of Scripture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

no ones ever accused Newton of being likeable. ;)
I have read an account where Newtons comment about standing on the shoulders of giants was actually a subtlish sneer at Leibniz, who was extremely short :lol:
 
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from the Brusselsjournal:

In the Islamic world, Greek natural philosophy was never fully accepted, and what initial acceptance there had been was largely nullified by the highly influential theologian al-Ghazali (1058-1111). He regarded natural philosophy as dangerous to Islam and was even skeptical of the concept of mathematical proof, one of the most important and unique contributions of ancient Greek scholarship to the modern world. Edward Grant explains in his very well-researched book Science and Religion, 400 B.C. to A.D. 1550: From Aristotle to Copernicus:

“[Al-Ghazali] included the mathematical sciences within the class of philosophical sciences (i.e., mathematics, logic, natural science, theology or metaphysics, politics, and ethics) and concluded that a student who studied these sciences would be 'infected with the evil and corruption of the philosophers. Few there are who devote themselves to this study without being stripped of religion and having the bridle of godly fear removed from their heads' (Watt 1953, 34). In his great philosophical work, The Incoherence of the Philosophers, al-Ghazali attacks ancient philosophy, especially the views of Aristotle. He does so by describing and criticizing the ideas of al-Farabi and Avicenna, two of the most important Islamic philosophical commentators on Aristotle. After criticizing their opinions on twenty philosophical problems, including the eternality of the world, that God knows only universals and not particulars, and that bodies will not be resurrected after death, al-Ghazali declares: 'All these three theories are in violent opposition to Islam. To believe in them is to accuse the prophets of falsehood, and to consider their teachings as a hypocritical misrepresentation designed to appeal to the masses. And this is blatant blasphemy to which no Muslim sect would subscribe' (al-Ghazali 1963, 249).”

As Ibn Warraq sums up in his modern classic Why I Am Not a Muslim, “orthodox Islam emerged victorious from the encounter with Greek philosophy. Islam rejected the idea that one could attain truth with unaided human reason and settled for the unreflective comforts of the putatively superior truth of divine revelation. Wherever one decides to place the date of this victory of orthodox Islam (perhaps in the ninth century with the conversion of al-Ashari, or in the eleventh century with the works of al-Ghazali), it has been, I believe, an unmitigated disaster for all Muslims, indeed all mankind.”



Some emipiricist allow themselves the impertinence to utter "prove God" not realizing that the appropriate response "Disprove God" will bring a uneasy silence to their demand.

The burden of evidence rest upon the one who makes the extraordinary claim, not the one who questions it.
If I say 'a pink invisible unicorn rules the universe', it does not lend any truth or credence to my claim to assert that you can not disprove that.
I would have to prove or give evidence for that claim to be considered. Evidence that religious people cannot provide.

I am not so sure I'm on board with the assertion that science and religion are asking the same questions -- Science may well border on the metaphyiscal, but cannot lay claim to that realm, without jeopardizing the epistemoplgy and method it has laid for itself -- proof of metaphysical propositions, seems to me, to be less than scientific, isn't that so?

Well first of all I would argue that there is no such thing as the "metaphysical". ;)

All things are based in the physical reality. Although we are not able to perceive all scales or dimensions of existence directly(or at all), but they are still based in natural and physical laws (these might vary on the very small "nano" scale or in quantum physics, but are still physical, based in matter in the broad sense). Metaphysics to me is only a more fancy word for "Magic".
There are of course things that for now may lie beyond human comprehension, but that does not make them "metaphysical".

Furthermore the questions I was referring to are along these lines: "How did the universe emerge?", "How did (human) life on earth emerge?" "What happens to the consciousness after the body stops working?" "Is it likely that the universe is actively controlled and influenced by an "outside" power?" "Are miracles (violations of the natural law) possible?" These are all scientific questions with a definite answer at least in principle and most already have a likely answer, which is not the religious one.
Because for many of them the information to answer them is not yet (and may never be) fully attainable, it does not mean that imagining an overlapping world of the "metaphysical" which is not based in anything but human creativity is to be considered when answering them.
Metaphysics for a good reason does not play any considerable role in science since the late 19th century. Because it does not produce anything of value, just diffuse World views, based in wild speculation.



Unbeliever, I suppose I fall, somewhat, into the category of believers you postulate above. However, I am still not clear about what aspect of "New Testament" Christianity, i.e the specific teachings of Jesus as reported in the New Testament of the Christian Bible, constitute "massive social and political elements" that impede the free pursuit of science. Are you saying that ethical considerations, such as not experimenting on human subjects, if informed by one's religious beliefs, are examples of the impediments to science caused by religion?

No I am not referring to that. Ethical considerations in science are a different aspect, although I would challenge any religious authority in these areas as well. Medical doctors, anthropologists, philosophers and Psychologist are to be consulted in these matters.
You are right that other than Judaism and Islam; Christianity does not have this affinity to law guiding every aspect of a believers life, daily routine and political presuppositions.

But in terms of Christianity what I am referring to is dogmatism, which is also uttered by Jesus time and again in the new testament and is a way of thinking that encourages believe without evidence over critical thinking and empiricism. It basically discourages the believer from a logical and scientific mindset.

John 8:13
8:13The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest witness of thyself; thy witness is not true. 8:14Jesus answered and said unto them, Even if I bear witness of myself, my witness is true; for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye know not whence I come, or whither I go. 8:15Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. 8:16Yea and if I judge, my judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. 8:17Yea and in your law it is written, that the witness of two men is true. 8:18I am he that beareth witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. 8:19They said therefore unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye know neither me, nor my Father: if ye knew me, ye would know my Father also.
What this basically says is "Don't question me, because I am right anyway for reasons you cannot understand"
 
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In principle, everything is simple - the science requires money, stability and a certain leader, that he began its development. All (or some) of this, unfortunately, lacks the most muslim countries.
 
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Unbeliever,

I think that any "religion" would be viewed by yourself as antithetical to science. I guess that I agree with you as regards to religious dogma. However, I don't believe that science can answer all questions. For example, I don't believe that science can ever answer the question of how the Universe we live in came into being. That is because I don't believe we humans can ever place ourselves in a physical position to make the physical observations that science requires to reach an answer to this question. And, theories without physical proof are just religious ideas themselves. Consequently, I believe that there is room for religion to "hypothesize" about some such questions without conflicting with the pursuit of meaningful scientific understanding. My test of a religion is, then, if it is useful to humanity, as an adjunct to science, by promoting the best possible human behavior. If the religion does this, then I think it is serving a purpose and should not be condemned. Most people believe in the religion, if any, taught to them by their parents. So, essentially, religion functions as a cultural tool to promote certain patterns of human behavior. To my mind, some religions promote more effective human behavior than do others and so are to be preferred for that reason.
 
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Unbeliever,

I think that any "religion" would be viewed by yourself as antithetical to science. I guess that I agree with you as regards to religious dogma. However, I don't believe that science can answer all questions. For example, I don't believe that science can ever answer the question of how the Universe we live in came into being.
That is because I don't believe we humans can ever place ourselves in a physical position to make the physical observations that science requires to reach an answer to this question. And, theories without physical proof are just religious ideas themselves.

Consequently, I believe that there is room for religion to "hypothesize" about some such questions without conflicting with the pursuit of meaningful scientific understanding. My test of a religion is, then, if it is useful to humanity, as an adjunct to science, by promoting the best possible human behavior. If the religion does this, then I think it is serving a purpose and should not be condemned. Most people believe in the religion, if any, taught to them by their parents. So, essentially, religion functions as a cultural tool to promote certain patterns of human behavior. To my mind, some religions promote more effective human behavior than do others and so are to be preferred for that reason.
Well as I said some questions may never be answered due to a lack of information or evidence, but most remain scientific questions never the less.
Direct observation of the beginnings of the universe is not necessary though, evidence can also come in the form of a hypothesis that makes predictions which can be proven to be correct by later observations.
Our current cosmological model does that. Although we can not be certain that it is fully correct, simulations and observations so far are compatible with the Singularity - Big Bang - extending universe, forming of galaxies - stars planets and now our current structure of the universe (Millenium Simulation). Cosmology can not and will probably never know what was "before" the Big Bag or if there even was a before, it could also be a cycle of expansion and contraction (to the point of singularity). But that doesn't really matter because our lives are about what we can know in our "universe" we otherwise also have the problem of Infinite Regression.

Big questions like 'How does the world work?', 'Why (if there even is a "reason") are we here?' Well both these questions can in part be answered by science and philosophy, maybe enough for us to stop asking one day ;)

And Religions, at least all that are available to us right now, are not helping when it comes to truth.
The role of meaningful theorizing of these deeper questions fits philosophy which has actually brought the world ideas of value (Voltaire, Freud, Schopenhauer, Locke, Rousseau, Kant and so many more) while religion offers little of value to humanity that can not be found outside of it. Often in an improved quality.

Faith is "easy", its intellectually lazy, because it is easier to cope with than doubt, skepticism and uncertainty. Doubt and skepticism are core principles of scientific inquiry and also why your wrong to say: "And, theories without physical proof are just religious ideas themselves.".
Also, theories always have a basis in reality, are tangible and consciously narrow the scope to describe a certain system.
I also think your mixing up two concepts of "theory".
"Theories whose subject matter consists not in empirical data, but rather in ideas are in the realm of philosophical theories as contrasted with scientific theories."

A theory without evidence is just that a philosophical theory, in some ways like a religious "theory"(although religion claims absolute truth, uses dogmatism etc.) but nothing like a scientific theory.

To your last segment, we switch from the "Truth" to the "Usefullness" argument.

Let me first say the harm religion does directly and indirectly far outweighs the usefulness in my view.
Secondly, yes Religion is a tool to transfer your values to your children or in some cases rather force them upon your children? Values and cultural identity can be transferred in many different ways. Being a good example is also among the most effective. You don't need an ancient fairytale to teach your child the values you hold dear. In addition it is also the right and task of your children to reshape and edit these values to their own life experiences, maybe abandon archaic ones for new ones. Progress, that is much easier without the fear of hellfire.
 
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I see you've read your share of Daniel Dennet-- Darwin's Dangerous Idea, Evolution and the meanings of life ...
If you have, you should also read John Macarthur's direct reply to Daniel Dennet's book-- The Battle of the beginning: The bible on creation and the fall of Adam

Very enlightening stuff, its not every day you see some folks who would like to talk about this more on an academic level..good to read your posts hopefully i would like to add my views on this conversation as well.. You should also read Sam Harris's book-The end of Faith to, i haven't read the whole thing but i have an idea of what its about :)

One thing i would like to add is the concept of 'Hellenization' the blending of greek philosophy of reasoning into religion. Unfortunately Islam de-hellenized itself somewhere around the 13th century. The day you let go of reasoning and submit to complete higher authority is the day the monsters are unleashed, as the satirical painting by Francisco De Goya shows and that in return has dangerous consequences.

Pope Benedict XVI gave a phenominal speech about the concept of Hellenzation, i suggest that you read that as well. I am sure you probably know about it since you are from Germany. I have a hard copy of the basic things that the pope said as well as Hellenization and how greek influences later reformed Judaism as well as Christianity. Basically he believes that Christianity is indebted to the spirit of Greek Philosophy which was dedicated to the persuit of logos, the divine word or reason incarnate in Jesus Christ.

If you want i can scan it and send you this brilliant article

On a funny note..
 
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Hi, I haven't read Dennet yet, but I have seen many lectures by him and discussions he was involved in. I have already read Harris "End of Faith" and "Letter to a Christian Nation" as well as Dawkins and Hitchens books concerning that topic and although I was already an Atheist before, they make interlectually very strong arguments and help to refute religious apologists. To be honest, I'm not very keen to read any more "Christian responses" because the ones I read don't amount to anything substantial or anything I haven't heard before. If MacArthur is such an extraordinary exception I will consider reading his book though.

Concerning Hellenization
Why Christians Accepted Greek Natural Philosophy, But Muslims Did Not | The Brussels Journal
Very interesting and important topic, since without Greek influence 'Western Civilization' as we know it wouldn't exist.

I'm sure the speech of the Pope is on the internet as well so no need to scan it, but thanks for the offer and I will definitely read it. Although I'm German I haven't read it yet because I don't think that highly of the pope, but he isn't stupid, that much is for sure.

P.S. Funny video =) I also have one for you, although you probably know it already.
 
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Concerning Hellenization
Why Christians Accepted Greek Natural Philosophy, But Muslims Did Not | The Brussels Journal
Very interesting and important topic, since without Greek influence 'Western Civilization' as we know it wouldn't exist.

I tend to give the romans a little more credit than that, first of all because they beat them, they beat them and occupied they're lands for
540 years, maybe longer if you count the eastern roman empire.
Second because of language, it is impossible to preserve culture or ideas without language, written or otherwise.
Now to Christianity, up to 313 A.C. the were a cult , a persecuted cult even after 413 years after the conquest of Greece.
So Greek influence does not translate into tolerance toward Christianity or even a Greek based culture capable to preserve her own language except in the areas it first appeared.
 
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Well you're right but they both share almost equal "credit" if you will. ;)
What Romans did for language, roads and warfare; Greeks did for philosophy, science, arctitecture etc. The Romans actually adopted a lot from Ancient Greece and even after the conquest were still constantly influenced by it. Ancient Greece isn't called the cradle of Europe for nothing.
So Greek philosophy certainly played a major part in the Renaissance and the Enlightenment and therefore in modern concepts like secularization, democracy etc. So although the Romans certainly played a very important role in our continental history and in shaping "our" future, no ancient region has influenced our philosophy (and that is what my exchange with Duran is mostly about) more than Ancient Greece.
 
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@Unbeliever

Hey Sorry for the late reply!!

I read the whole link you posted, its very well written and i really enjoyed reading it. I even mailed this to my professor who enjoyed it very much to as it covered a lot of the material that I studied in my university's religion, culture and literature class.

My thoughts on Christianity is that in the West Christianity cannot by law be a state religion, yet so many of the moral codes and the policies on human rights--in short, the essential ethical principles of modern western secularism. reach back to Christian teaching for their inspiration. By the second quarter of the fourth century, when Rome embraced Christianity as its state religion, it was clear that the cross had triumphed over the Pagan empire of the Caesars. If only terms of symbolism and nothing else, this was nonetheless an incredible turn of events.

Also according to what Jesus said '‘Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's' is something someone would expect to say in the late 20's or early 30's but was probably written down sometime in AD 70 has separation of Church and state written all over it.

My Analysis of what all the three religions believe when it comes to God is very different.

In Comparison to Islam and to Judaism with their non-theological representations of Jesus, the countervailing Christian belief is that Jesus was crucified and resurrected, and is the "Son of God". How to resolve this large difference in what are basically very differing concepts of God.

1)For Islam God simply Is, and what "Is" is without likeness and is almighty and unquestionable and always right and can do no wrong--'That is all ye know on earth and all ye need to know'.

---- My Criticism for this is that God has raw, unmitigated power to do anything that He deemed fit and so in the Name of God you are now entitled to do what you so love doing, 'In the Name of God'. Your requirement for complete and utter obedience in every shape or form fundamentally requires you to follow directions of the Almighty and thus to some extent give up free will as your looking up to higher power at all times. Thus giving up free will allows you to move away from reality and start looking at metaphysical elements thus allowing many other 'higher authorities' to take advantage of you.

2)For Christianity God reaches down from the heights of his sovereignty, his transcendental otherness and becomes "like" something, like a Father or a beloved Son, and can be likened to the pure love that flows between Father and Son or between two people.

--- My Criticism for this is that when it comes to pure love how do you than literally allow your son to be man handled like no other human being and put your 'Son' to death in a gruesome tormenting way so the world can be cleansed from all the sins humanity committed. Two things to notice here 1) God is a lot more humane in a sense that he comes down in a shape of a man for humans to relate themselves to, thus God coming from the Metaphysical world to the physical world gives Humans a sense of realism 2) God killing his sons for our sins absolutely makes no sense what so ever

3) For Jews God is absolutely "other", but he nevertheless reveals himself in history; he becomes active in the theater of history and pervades the corporate identity of the historical people.

--- My Criticism is that Both the Gods in Judaism and Islam are pretty much alike, total power. But when i say that he reveals himself in history, i am metaphorically speaking here as the Jewish people have always related to one thing. Return to the land of Zion and they find God in the history of its people, this thus makes them fundamentally a bit 'racist' towards other religions. The Power of God to act in history and "In" the Jewish people, thus God is present in a holy place or even in the congregation of the holy people, but he does not embody any particular human.

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Just some thoughts

On the side note about the video you posted .. Yes i have seen this many times, i love George Carlin and this is one of his best stand ups, to bad he died i was a big fan of his.
 
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Well as I said some questions may never be answered due to a lack of information or evidence, but most remain scientific questions never the less.
Direct observation of the beginnings of the universe is not necessary though, evidence can also come in the form of a hypothesis that makes predictions which can be proven to be correct by later observations.
Our current cosmological model does that. Although we can not be certain that it is fully correct, simulations and observations so far are compatible with the Singularity - Big Bang - extending universe, forming of galaxies - stars planets and now our current structure of the universe (Millenium Simulation). Cosmology can not and will probably never know what was "before" the Big Bag or if there even was a before, it could also be a cycle of expansion and contraction (to the point of singularity). But that doesn't really matter because our lives are about what we can know in our "universe" we otherwise also have the problem of Infinite Regression.

Big questions like 'How does the world work?', 'Why (if there even is a "reason") are we here?' Well both these questions can in part be answered by science and philosophy, maybe enough for us to stop asking one day ;)

And Religions, at least all that are available to us right now, are not helping when it comes to truth.
The role of meaningful theorizing of these deeper questions fits philosophy which has actually brought the world ideas of value (Voltaire, Freud, Schopenhauer, Locke, Rousseau, Kant and so many more) while religion offers little of value to humanity that can not be found outside of it. Often in an improved quality.

Faith is "easy", its intellectually lazy, because it is easier to cope with than doubt, skepticism and uncertainty. Doubt and skepticism are core principles of scientific inquiry and also why your wrong to say: "And, theories without physical proof are just religious ideas themselves.".
Also, theories always have a basis in reality, are tangible and consciously narrow the scope to describe a certain system.
I also think your mixing up two concepts of "theory".
"Theories whose subject matter consists not in empirical data, but rather in ideas are in the realm of philosophical theories as contrasted with scientific theories."

A theory without evidence is just that a philosophical theory, in some ways like a religious "theory"(although religion claims absolute truth, uses dogmatism etc.) but nothing like a scientific theory.

To your last segment, we switch from the "Truth" to the "Usefullness" argument.

Let me first say the harm religion does directly and indirectly far outweighs the usefulness in my view.
Secondly, yes Religion is a tool to transfer your values to your children or in some cases rather force them upon your children? Values and cultural identity can be transferred in many different ways. Being a good example is also among the most effective. You don't need an ancient fairytale to teach your child the values you hold dear. In addition it is also the right and task of your children to reshape and edit these values to their own life experiences, maybe abandon archaic ones for new ones. Progress, that is much easier without the fear of hellfire.

I agree with you wholeheartly, besides the part of religion in our lives. Even though I am atheist, I still believe religion is important, based on looking at my two young daughters.

First, strickly looking at my daughter i am making this analysis. To teach them any sence of our culture, I have to teach them about religion, to my dismay. So one can conclude that if there was no religion, one cannot find a cohesive culture. The eastern culture are so imbedded with religion that one cannot escape. For example all the holidays are based on some religious aspect. The classical dance and music classes I sent them to, are based on religious overtone. So, I disagree with you that values of culture can be transfered to your children without any religious overtone.


In addition it is also the right and task of your children to reshape and edit these values to their own life experiences, maybe abandon archaic ones for new ones. Progress, that is much easier without the fear of hellfire


And to answer your question on this regards, people are changing there views with new ones, but they are doing it thru religion. That is why denomination exist in religion today. If religion was so perfect what would be the purpose of having different denomination?
 
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Maybe because Muslim world dare to question religion and teach more from holy texts than from scientific texts. Madarasas are one example. Religion is good but there should be a balance!

^^^ This is my point of view, i really hate to post a comment on this as it is a very sensitive matter.
 
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