Why does our Navy fail so horribly?

[Joe Shearer]

Mister ADMINITRATORS / WEBMASTER,


What is it now----is 'idiot' a new category created to be a member on this board----. Is this board now going to be run as pakistan is being run---.

I was wondering what Joe Shearer was saying as I joined this thread from the last page backward---.

I have quite given up hope of a decent, mannerly discussion, with knowledgeable people, and am not going to fight trolls, jingoes and fanboys any longer. There is an appalling flood of the hoi polloi from all sides, including some self-declared Islamophobes and one scalawag whose vocabulary marks him as an agent provocateur from an ill-famed defence web site. Under the circumstances, since it is impossible to cope with their wolf-pack tactics, it seems more and more that the only response is to mock the goings-on with liberal doses of humour. Or to take refuge in military music.

There goes another decent site.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Mister ADMINITRATORS / WEBMASTER,


What is it now----is 'idiot' a new category created to be a member on this board----. Is this board now going to be run as pakistan is being run---.

I was wondering what Joe Shearer was saying as I joined this thread from the last page backward---.

MK,

Even I sometimes wonder (seeing the subjects and level of posts) whether I have stumbled into a Seminar for Scavengers and Scalawags scurrying about here and there.
Sometimes its better to give the forum a 'wide berth'; instead.
Is it to do with Revenues and all that?

Oh,yes; this is a Defence Forum !?!?

 

[Shinigami]

Sir,

I very much doubt that you know the capabilities of the united states navy----just to give you an example---2 to 3 sea wolf class submarines would completely destroy the chinese submarine fleet a big chunk of industrial base of china and will be long gone before the chinese know what happened.

please do not call me sir as i do not think i am worthy of that title.

now,

going by your logic, we can say that, a group of 100 US marines and an attack chopper has enough fire power to annihilate taliban and alqaida combined. but then why is a much larger force being humiliated consistently? This is just an example.

Hence, you, like most people do not seem to comprehend the effectiveness of asymmetric warfare, especially in a defensive role

 

[MastanKhan]

please do not call me sir as i do not think i am worthy of that title.

now,

going by your logic, we can say that, a group of 100 US marines and an attack chopper has enough fire power to annihilate taliban and alqaida combined. but then why is a much larger force being humiliated consistently? This is just an example.

Hence, you, like most people do not seem to comprehend the effectiveness of asymmetric warfare, especially in a defensive role

Hi,

For that you have to be ready at your 110% of your capabilities all the time and you have to know where the enemy subs are and when they are going to strike---and technically---that is not possible.

Now---otoh---if the chinese subs get to sneak close to u s shore line and do the same strike----they will give the u s a nasty blow but not as bad as the u s would give to the chinese---.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

There r idiots in any large group. We too have our share as do a lot of other forums out there.

We have had lots of good discussions on this forum and the Naval Threads are no exception.

Undeniably, USN is the most powerful force out there. And no country in its right mind would take it on in open combat. USSR never did.

China, today would not. And Iran, well Iran has some advantages due to the shallow, confined waters of the Gulf. But that advantage would be lost once open hostilities do errupt and Iranian airspace is takenover by US a/c.

Our little arm chair wargamers have no clue to the real world of long range naval engagement in three dimension. The fourth one is the eye in the space.

 

[Shinigami]

Hi,

For that you have to be ready at your 110% of your capabilities all the time and you have to know where the enemy subs are and when they are going to strike---and technically---that is not possible.

Now---otoh---if the chinese subs get to sneak close to u s shore line and do the same strike----they will give the u s a nasty blow but not as bad as the u s would give to the chinese---.

You seem to dwell into the technicalities and other irrelevant details and forget to see the big picture. The defenders always have the homeground advantage which is massive and sometimes deceive. in the history of our subcontinent, the battle of longewala is the most obvious example of this fact

There r idiots in any large group. We too have our share as do a lot of other forums out there.

We have had lots of good discussions on this forum and the Naval Threads are no exception.

Undeniably, USN is the most powerful force out there. And no country in its right mind would take it on in open combat. USSR never did.

China, today would not. And Iran, well Iran has some advantages due to the shallow, confined waters of the Gulf. But that advantage would be lost once open hostilities do errupt and Iranian airspace is takenover by US a/c.

Our little arm chair wargamers have no clue to the real world of long range naval engagement in three dimension. The fourth one is the eye in the space.

I never said that USN cannot handle the PLAN. that is ridiculous. they have an almost unbeatable history of modern sea warfare, a skill which they sharpen with disturbing efficiency.

compare that with PLAN, who seems to be the new kid in the block. Heck, even india, as i mentioned earlier has a legacy in maratime warfare that far surpasses the chinese, right from those ancient times when the romans taught the south indians to build warships, who later went on to defeat their european mentors in the colonial ages

 

[Aamir Hussain]

You got it all wrong buddy in your eagerness to respond. The statement was for the domestic consumption. But come to think of it, the same applies to your little pond as well.

Indian past glories does not do much for the high tech world of today's naval powr. Same is the case with the Chiness, the at point in time, had the largest nanval fleet in Asia and my some estimates their navies reasched as far south as Madagascar and even to the shores present day US territories in the Pacific.

 

[Shinigami]

Indian past glories does not do much for the high tech world of today's naval powr. Same is the case with the Chiness, the at point in time, had the largest nanval fleet in Asia and my some estimates their navies reasched as far south as Madagascar and even to the shores present day US territories in the Pacific.

i think that past plays a significant role in influencing the present and the future. its not surprising that the japanese and royal navies are still among the worlds best today.

regarding the chinese, i feel their maratime warfare legacy is just beginning

 

[Aamir Hussain]

you have the right to your opinion. You r quoting nations that have a continous Naval prowess since last century.

India does not, neither does China. Both India and China are in the same boat. Both r building up their naval power. How well they perform in the event of a naval conflict, yet to see.

India does have slight edge there as they did engage in naval warfare in 1965 an 1971. The performance, given the resources and the numbers, was not all that good. But than PN did not fare well in 1971 either.

 

[blackops]

MK Is right shingmi
you see you gave a example of taliban andus ground forces but remember this they are not a proffestional army they play on hit and run while navy's on other hand dont do this just my two cents

 

[SQ8]

MK Is right shingmi
you see you gave a example of taliban andus ground forces but remember this they are not a proffestional army they play on hit and run while navy's on other hand dont do this just my two cents

On the contrary my dear,

One of the concerns for the US were much smaller Iranian PT boats equipped with torpedo's and Anti-Tank missiles "rushing" larger US navy vessels. Which is why the US is speeding up arming its much smaller vessels.

PCFG's and other missile boats rely on exactly such hit and run tactics against much larger targets.

 

[Manticore]

If one compares navy and air force, it quite clear that the PAF has transformed completely if compared to 10 years ago. However, the air force did suffer immensely in the 70's and 90's and they learned their lessons.

Not sure what makes a ship 'amazing' but firepower and weaponry of one F-22P equals four Type-21 frigates. Ten years ago PN had six frigates now 11. Ten years ago it had three LRMPA now 10. Ten years ago it had three ship-borne helicopters now they have 12.

Even though the number of subs has decreased by one since 2000 but the firepower and endurance of the sub force has increased exponentially.

Realistically, next five years one will see a lot of new weapon systems inducted in the navy: possibly 3-4 more advance F-22P, 3 F-25P heavy frigates with a soft loan of $750 million from China, 2~4 Perry-Class frigates, nine new SSK (next 12 years), more upgraded Sea Kings plus E-9EC, replacement of Atlantics by either H-6K or mix with CN-235, new SAM system for Turbat, Ormara, Pasni, and Qasim.

In essence I would not say that PN is neglected but what I would say is that, Pakistan is geo-strategically an island country with 95% of all the commerce done via sea, therefore, to protect this 95% of the commerce PN should be a much larger force than what it is presently.
Last edited by H Khan; 04-11-2012 at 11:18 PM.

by H Khan ............................................

 

[rishisankaran]

You got it all wrong buddy in your eagerness to respond. The statement was for the domestic consumption. But come to think of it, the same applies to your little pond as well.

Indian past glories does not do much for the high tech world of today's naval powr. Same is the case with the Chiness, the at point in time, had the largest nanval fleet in Asia and my some estimates their navies reasched as far south as Madagascar and even to the shores present day US territories in the Pacific.

With regards to technology we are not that behind, I guess the same applies to China as well. We have our own Naval design wing and have successfully inducted indigenous stealth warships such as Shivaliks and are in the process of developing nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers. I guess probably Pakistan Navy may have to learn quite a lot when it comes to Naval technology and the above statement might aptly apply to it, I'm not trying to make is sound insulting but just answering to your ill-researched conclusions that you seem to draw out of God knows where !!

 

[Abingdonboy]

You got it all wrong buddy in your eagerness to respond. The statement was for the domestic consumption. But come to think of it, the same applies to your little pond as well.

Indian past glories does not do much for the high tech world of today's naval powr. Same is the case with the Chiness, the at point in time, had the largest nanval fleet in Asia and my some estimates their navies reasched as far south as Madagascar and even to the shores present day US territories in the Pacific.

What is the source/logic behind these claims? Have you heard of the P-17,P-15A,P-28, Arihant etc? India easily as the qualitive edge in the region- as usuall, China has the numbers.

 

[truthseer]

Admit it or not, our Navy isn't that great. The Turks and Iranians are way ahead of us, and we're left far behind.

We have what, about 11-12 ships? The Turks and Iranians have 260+. The Iranians have 19 submarines, the Turks have about 16, while we only have 5.

At least we're ahead of the Turks and many other countries in terms of destroyers. We have 1, Iran has 4, Turkey has 0.

But, what I'm getting at is, our Navy is extremely bad. Our Navy should work on improving itself. We're good in the air, but in an all out war, we would lose horrifically fast in the sea. If we're able to get more ships and submarines, we already have nuclear subs, we will advance our sea power horrifically fast, rivaling only that of other nuclear countries.


Total Navy Ship Strength by Country

Total Submarine Strength by Country

Total Navy Destroyer Strength by Country

Navy only has to defend a small area comparative to many other countries. For example, India has a much larger coastline than Pakistan. Small coastline means we don't need a large navy. Besides, our navy is for defence, not offence
Plus, most of their money seems to go towards the house cities they make... (Jealous)