Why China paid $1trillion to US but doesn't pay a dime to the Pak govt?

[muse]

They key is "land reforms". It is time to get rid of the feudal landlords in Pakistan as well.

No it isn't - no more stealing other peoples property.

Dragon, social change is generally preceded by a change in the order of priority we assign to particular values - and the incentives society offers for such a re-ordering.

That these feudals have land is not a problem, that they don't pay taxes, is a problem -- Now if we want these people to expand their holdings to include mechanized, automated industry, we should offer them incentives - if we want them to pay taxes, we should offer them incentives -- You know that these same feudals are also members of parliament or Majlis - So the crooks and the police are basically the same people?? Yes, it's true.

We have done land reform before, all that does is give the Feudal incentives to put the land in the names of tens of his relatives and thereby claiming that he does not own all that land.

But why blame the feudal? He or she is sitting in Majlis because he or she was elected - people voted for him - this feudal is not the source of the problem -

I would offer that it is the difficulty of getting into the economy and the size and complexity of the economy that is the problem - we want more urban voters and we want the rural to follow the urban - but the urban and rural have different priorities, so it will be very slow -- our focus should be on the size and complexity of the economy and the obstacles placed by vested interests to joining the economy - for instance, how difficult it is to register a business or property, the number of "no objection" certificates required, the monopolies in the economy - that's why the reserve governor has been calling for liberalization of the economy -- Once a larger number of persons are making money, they find a political voice and this voice can challenge the no agriculture tax lobby.

 

[longbrained]

Pakistan needs a Strong man why did Pakistanis give Musharraf up for the fruits of Democracy ? I hear you guys want him back now.

No body wants him back at all. He was not the sort of person you want. He was just a dictator but not the kind like Mao, Stalin or Khomeini. He was not ideological and just was after glory and riches. He did not develop anything. No grand projects. Pakistan needs a real man like Suharto, Ahmadinejad or Ordugan. Some one who is independent enough to carry out a huge reform in the country. Some one man enough to lead engineers in the country to team up and create wealth. Mining sector should be a prime target. Pakistan can make more than 120 billion dollars a year for over half a century just exploiting its mineral reserves. Such a money would make Pakistan like Malaysia. Musharraf could never have done it.

 

[iPhone]

Pakistan needs a Strong man why did Pakistanis give Musharraf up for the fruits of Democracy ? I hear you guys want him back now.

absolutely he want him back. He's wanted for multiple crimes and pending warrants. He hasn't paid heed to a single warrant issued by the courts. We want him back in the country - so he can be tried in a court of law and answer to the aurthorties his crimes.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

I would offer that it is the difficulty of getting into the economy and the size and complexity of the economy that is the problem - we want more urban voters and we want the rural to follow the urban - but the urban and rural have different priorities, so it will be very slow -- our focus should be on the size and complexity of the economy and the obstacles placed by vested interests to joining the economy - for instance, how difficult it is to register a business or property, the number of "no objection" certificates required, the monopolies in the economy - that's why the reserve governor has been calling for liberalization of the economy -- Once a larger number of persons are making money, they find a political voice and this voice can challenge the no agriculture tax lobby.

Fair enough, you know much more about the complexities of the Pakistani economy than I do.

So apart from tax reforms, what other reforms should receive the highest priority do you think?

Also, I think there needs to be more meritocracy in the Pakistani political system. This also applies to other countries in the subcontinent I would imagine, where famous names like Gandhi (Sonia/Rahul) reign supreme.

Hu Jintao for instance (our current leader) was born to a very poor family in the rural areas of China. I think those kinds of people make the best leaders, the ones who rose through merit alone.

The previous Chinese leader (Jiang Zemin) came from a privileged background, and the people ended up disliking him, for playing too much politics and for giving priority to those who were in his close circle of associates (cronyism).

 

[NeutralCitizen]

So How much Money has Zardari stolen so far ? Corruption is one of the Biggest Issues in Pakistan on Par with Terrorism.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Democracy works in a environment where literacy is 80%-90%

Pakistan has literacy rate of 45-50% on paper but realistically its just 20% considering migration of Pakistanis to Middle east/UK/US/Asia

So the 20 % educated class can't decide on who to support since the politicians use ethnic lines to divide the vote , example the murders in Karachi is an example to create an artificial environment of hate/segregation so when voting comes next year people vote along the ethnic lines. (You may notice all was good just prior to elections and it will return back to that state after election)

Now since Pakistani's educated class is not numerically superior to uneducated class people who hand out 1 bag of flour or job incentives to uneducated classes normally get elected via (bribery)

So Such a broken system cannot allow genuine worthy candidates up to Top its near impossible

The only system that can work in Pakistan is

A hybrid of communism / democratic system where highly educated group rule the country with dictatorship provided there is 20% improvement in literacy each 2-3 years and tax reforms are done - with transition to democracy once literacy rate is 80% in country

Experts foreign/Locals are brought in to head individual ministries who can make each institute 100% accountable in 7 years time frame and the transition would take 10 years

The idea of uneducated farmers getting rice/flour bags from zardari , and voting for his group will not give us Jinnah's Pakistan nor will Nawaz sharif's running around to Saudia every time a difficulty arises or having that by pass surgery ...or Altaf bahi calling from UK on how much he loves Karachi or Pakistan ... sorry but these guys are not worthy

A democratic process will always FAIL in Pakistan due to presence of "RIGGED voting lists"
double voting , and high % of uneducated voting class who can't differentiate between good and bad , except for fact who is handing over bag of flour / or 2 suger bags

 

[longbrained]

No it isn't - no more stealing other peoples property.

That is right. Stealing is not the solution. People do not know anything about economy. Pakistan's problems are not going to be solved by redistribution of wealth at all (Pakistan already has a very low Gini score). Remember that taxes or land reform are methods of re-distribution of wealth. While Pakistan indeed needs tax reform but these will never improve Pakistan's economy contrary to popular conceptions. They will make government rich temporarily but the people will get nothing ever. Pakistan needs wealth generation to up its economic growth rate. Only generation of wealth is going to improve people's lives. Stealing from one giving it to the other has detrimental effects. As I said above Pakistan can use its mineral wealth to massively improve people's standard of life. That is the only solution.

 

[Patrician]

Patrician, It seems you pissed them off lmao.

I didn't intend to. Fact of the matter is, keep the hyperbole aside and analyze what the Chinese have to show when it comes to helping their 'all-weather ally' and the answer turns out to be a big NOTHING.

Heck, they come up with all those $20 (30, 35, whatever!)bn og MoU's by uncle Hu Jintao's teamsigned last year.

...but they won't tell you how many of those MoU's actually materialised.

Contrast this with the Chinese aid and trade packages for Africa and Pakistan's worth to China speaks for itself.

For all the blame put to Indians,

For all the 'inferiority complex' attributed to Indians,

For all the 'higher than mountain, deeper than oceans' emotional outburst,

Fact remains that the Chinese have done and continue to do little to 'help' Pakistan apart from issuing empty rhetoric.

Heck, a certain 'enemy' superpower did more to help Pakistan than China did during its worst-ever floods. So much for all-weather friendship.

...but then, China doesn't have to. All they have to say is, "We help du. Du so dear friends."...

...and the Pakistanis go delirious singing hymns in honour of China, the atheist messaih of the Muslim world...

...but then, they're just being smart businessmen. Why spend hard cash when words can do the job, eh?

At the end of the day, Pakistan is not Africa or Middle East to China.

 

[muse]

Fair enough, you know much more about the complexities of the Pakistani economy than I do.

So apart from tax reforms, what other reforms should receive the highest priority do you think?

Also, I think there needs to be more meritocracy in the Pakistani political system. This also applies to other countries in the subcontinent I would imagine, where famous names like Gandhi (Sonia/Rahul) reign supreme.

Hu Jintao for instance (our current leader) was born to a very poor family in the rural areas of China. I think those kinds of people make the best leaders, the ones who rose through merit alone.

The previous Chinese leader (Jiang Zemin) came from a privileged background, and the people ended up disliking him, for playing too much politics and for giving priority to those who were in his close circle of associates (cronyism).

No one will disagree with meritocracy - but let me parrot the reserve bank governor, Privatize loss making state enterprises, such as PIA for one, create a public private partnership out of the Railways, Sell off the steel mill - basically get out of the business of being in business and instead be in the business of enabling business.

Dragon, are you familiar with the work of Hernando De Soto? I think Pakistan, like so many turd world countries, has been trying to "restrict" economic activity, not further it -- hard to believe? No sir, it's very reasonable - all over the turd world business is a monopoly venture and this is not a coincidence - when the reserve bank governor says "Liberalize" this is what he is pointing to.

Another point that you may not be aware of is the cushy relationship between politicians and bankers, it is all the rage in pakistan to take huge loans and then default on the loans - and still get elected to majlis - The govt gets to pick up the tab and most people get to lose their shirts - this is basically a Law enforcement problem.

 

[luckyyy]

The Chinese leadership, the diplomatic sources told The News, had agreed in principle to help Pakistan to bridge its budget deficit and to provide a soft loan for rescuing its economy.

The leadership, however, "declined to oblige the desire expressed by Islamabad for fiscal assistance", the report said.

Beijing said that China, as part of its policy, does not "give hard cash as financial assistance to any country", the report said.
http://www.paktribune.com/news/redirect.php?i=239547

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

No one will disagree with meritocracy -

Actually, I probably shouldn't be boasting about meritocracy in China. Considering the fact that the next Chinese leader, Xi Jinping, is from the Taizidang (Princeling faction).

No one will disagree with meritocracy - but let me parrot the reserve bank governor, Privatize loss making state enterprises, such as PIA for one, create a public private partnership out of the Railways, Sell off the steel mill - basically get out of the business of being in business and instead be in the business of enabling business.

Dragon, are you familiar with the work of Hernando De Soto? I think Pakistan, like so many turd world countries, has been trying to "restrict" economic activity, not further it -- hard to believe? No sir, it's very reasonable - all over the turd world business is a monopoly venture and this is not a coincidence - when the reserve bank governor says "Liberalize" this is what he is pointing to.

Another point that you may not be aware of is the cushy relationship between politicians and bankers, it is all the rage in pakistan to take huge loans and then default on the loans - and still get elected to majlis - The govt gets to pick up the tab and most people get to lose their shirts - this is basically a Law enforcement problem.

That's beyond my current knowledge about Pakistan I'm afraid. I will now try to find some articles to read, so I can come back with a more informed position on the matter.

 

[Patrician]

Beijing said that China, as part of its policy, does not "give hard cash as financial assistance to any country", the report said.
China backs Pak moves to safeguard its security - PakTribune

Bullsh*t!

Bullsh*t!

What then are they doing in Africa?

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/a-13-Chinese-Aid-Flows-into-Africa.html

It must be the divine hand, I guess...

Anyways, this should be read as, "Pakistan is not worth it."

...Higher than mountain, deeper than oceans.

O Thee Chinese masters, blessing be to thee. Thine hymns we shalt recite. Thou shalt rule our hearts forever...and ever...and ever...

Hail thee!

 

[muse]

Democracy works in a environment where literacy is 80%-90%

Pakistan has literacy rate of 45-50% on paper but realistically its just 20% considering migration of Pakistanis to Middle east/UK/US/Asia

So the 20 % educated class can't decide on who to support since the politicians use ethnic lines to divide the vote , example the murders in Karachi is an example to create an artificial environment of hate/segregation so when voting comes next year people vote along the ethnic lines. (You may notice all was good just prior to elections and it will return back to that state after election)

Now since Pakistani's educated class is not numerically superior to uneducated class people who hand out 1 bag of flour or job incentives to uneducated classes normally get elected via (bribery)

So Such a broken system cannot allow genuine worthy candidates up to Top its near impossible

The only system that can work in Pakistan is

A hybrid of communism / democratic system where highly educated group rule the country with dictatorship provided there is 20% improvement in literacy each 2-3 years and tax reforms are done - with transition to democracy once literacy rate is 80% in country

Experts foreign/Locals are brought in to head individual ministries who can make each institute 100% accountable in 7 years time frame and the transition would take 10 years

The idea of uneducated farmers getting rice/flour bags from zardari , and voting for his group will not give us Jinnah's Pakistan nor will Nawaz sharif's running around to Saudia every time a difficulty arises or having that by pass surgery ...or Altaf bahi calling from UK on how much he loves Karachi or Pakistan ... sorry but these guys are not worthy

A democratic process will always FAIL in Pakistan due to presence of "RIGGED voting lists"
double voting , and high % of uneducated voting class who can't differentiate between good and bad , except for fact who is handing over bag of flour / or 2 suger bags

All of these are valid except that Democracy can only function with educated people -- See Azad, there is a moral idea in all of this - What we call "Democracy" today, nothing but "representative government" - and here's the moral idea, that people should have a say in their governance - it seems to me that having a system that allows for national representative government but not having local representative government is just plain wrong headed - it seems to me.

Representative government is not a favor to anybody, it's simply a method that because of that moral idea, that the governed participate in their government, is a idea that no other can replace, it's where peoples heads and hearts are.

In Pakistan, there is a great misunderstanding of so called "Democracy" - and that's a shame - it's either majoritarianism or it's limp wristed paralysis.

 

[Pride]

USA aint going to get bankrupt. Its in your dream. They are just in little downside now after the last recession when govt had to spend hell lot of money to get out of it.

Did you even tried to read? All the cases has been taken based on hypothesis. Read the words "Say", "If" etc.

 

[Pride]

All of these are valid except that Democracy can only function with educated people -- See Azad, there is a moral idea in all of this - What we call "Democracy" today, nothing but "representative government" - and here's the moral idea, that people should have a say in their governance - it seems to me that having a system that allows for national representative government but not having local representative government is just plain wrong headed - it seems to me.

Representative government is not a favor to anybody, it's simply a method that because of that moral idea, that the governed participate in their government, is a idea that no other can replace, it's where peoples heads and hearts are.

In Pakistan, there is a great misunderstanding of so called "Democracy" - and that's a shame - it's either majoritarianism or it's limp wristed paralysis.

As usual great post but in support of your argument, I am adding few points here.

What we see a Democracy in South Asia is not a "Pure Democracy". While we have major parts of Democracy like Representative election, Institution and liberty etc. Democracy is great when it is having its strong constituents like Parliament, Judiciary, Political system etc. Where is that too strong in South Asia?? Be it Pakistan, India, Nepal or Bangladesh or Sri Lanka.

We have something mixed of Democracy = Majoritarianism + kingdom (heritage system) + A bit Anarchy (Not enforcement of Law properly)