Why China might be a better superpower

[Banglar Lathial]

My families live in France, Belgium, and Germany. Over there, hardly anyone has even heard of East Asian, let alone "influences".

And which language do we need to learn to communicate anyway? Without the White men's language ie English, hardly anyone around the world can communicate to each others.

Very true.

English is the de facto international language.

I went to Thailand, met Arabs, Russians, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, Thais, Malaysians, Sri Lankans etc. What was the language used for communication? English.

International Airport signage in every country? MUST use English language (according to international treaty/law).

Watched one HK movie set in South Korea. One Chinese person talked to a Korean - in English.

Watched an Iranian serial, where the protagonist visited Turkey. The person talked to Turks - in English.

 

[Banglar Lathial]

All American dress style came from europe, European dress had influences from rome, Rome imported silk from China. Caesar had silk from China, very expensive those days.

So who invented what? Who's to say? Compass is invented in China passed to Europe, does this mean GPS is Chinese? Though we do have our own now too.

Tobacco is native, but cigarettes are consider western no?

Where do you draw the line? Just as far as you can remember or what?

I think you are conflating multiple issues into one.

1. Americans today are mostly mongrel descendants of Europeans. Rome is in Europe. They are all Western. What is Western? One common agreement is that all Western societies must trace its law back to Roman law.

2. Ingredients can be imported from anywhere - that is called TRADING.

But, in China, couples marry each other in "Western Christian style" for lack of a better word. The bride and the groom wear the exact same dress they wear in the West, sometimes even the method of celebration and formalization of marriage is the same as in the West (well, nowadays most Westerners don't marry and as a result, they don't know who fathered their children; but even that trend is setting its roots in China or East Asia).


3. Compass invented in China? Maybe. But was Compass invented in China ALONE? Maybe not. Maybe other civilizations also independently observed that freely swinging magnets point towards certain direction, etc.

4. Cigarette is possibly Western, but I don't care much (I don't smoke).

 

[Banglar Lathial]

Well that is what makes the US a superpower. The US influence is equally prevalent in India, Germany, Saudi Arabia, etc.
why single out East Asia?

Don't let a few desert dwellers polishing their king's shoes as full time job, and 'talking trash' in this forum as part time assignment, fool you.

Saudi Arabia or most other countries are nowhere as closely influenced by American decadent 'culture' as the East Asian societies, where mimicking everything American is seen as 'status symbol'.

I agree with you on Hindustan. They are a low IQ nation, however, and they have always been slaves of either Muslims or (Christian majority) British (to some extents, also slaves of the French, Portuguese etc).

And the rest "soft drinks, alcohol, homosexuality" is not American. There are some really good Japanese beers, that have been around longer than a century.

And It's safe to say almost every westerner knows about Karate and martial arts - its far too prevalent in the media and video games to miss.

Again East Asians are mostly atheist - so the restrictions that apply to Muslims don't apply to them, and hence cannot be judged according those criteria.

Do Westerners actually know how to practice Karate, or just know that there exists such a word? The majority of Bangladeshis i.e. average man on the street, has heard of Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, Taekwando, Aikido, Sumo etc, and heard of "black belt", etc that does not mean the average man in the street is actually well versed in these martial arts.

 

[Genesis]

I think you are conflating multiple issues into one.

1. Americans today are mostly mongrel descendants of Europeans. Rome is in Europe. They are all Western. What is Western? One common agreement is that all Western societies must trace its law back to Roman law.

2. Ingredients can be imported from anywhere - that is called TRADING.

But, in China, couples marry each other in "Western Christian style" for lack of a better word. The bride and the groom wear the exact same dress they wear in the West, sometimes even the method of celebration and formalization of marriage is the same as in the West (well, nowadays most Westerners don't marry and as a result, they don't know who fathered their children; but even that trend is setting its roots in China or East Asia).


3. Compass invented in China? Maybe. But was Compass invented in China ALONE? Maybe not. Maybe other civilizations also independently observed that freely swinging magnets point towards certain direction, etc.

4. Cigarette is possibly Western, but I don't care much (I don't smoke).

after this much debate, I'm confused, what exactly are you trying to say? Asians are inferior to Europeans? You swing both ways, it's hard to know.

Are you saying no Asian influence can ever penetrate Europe? Seeing as how China is the EU's biggest trading partner, with Chinese companies deep inside "enemy" territory, it's hard to imagine no Chinese influence gets through.

More and more people are learning Chinese too, did you know that?

 

[Okemos]

Yes, lets band together the rest of world and compare to China. All "western" countries are similar, they all take pride into each other's contribution, their technology transfer is ok and can be attributed to each other because they look the same so they are a single unity. lol. A discussion mostly based on racial division is borderline racist reminiscent.

Actually I am really flattered that China is so powerful that a single country can be compared to the combination of all developed countries put together. An isolated people that has developed its unique civilization in far east for millenniums and still are going while most ancient people that created civilizations have died or been wiped out by barbarians that are now calling themselves "descendants" of civilization, lol. But more seriously, nobody is saying China is or will be superpower. Please leave us alone. Thanks.

Oh please take note that I have been using sarcasm, which is often lost in internet chat.

Anyway, why is thread still going? It's nothing but a lone Benglar babbling.

 

[Banglar Lathial]

after this much debate, I'm confused, what exactly are you trying to say? Asians are inferior to Europeans? You swing both ways, it's hard to know.

Where did I say that?

Are you saying no Asian influence can ever penetrate Europe? Seeing as how China is the EU's biggest trading partner, with Chinese companies deep inside "enemy" territory, it's hard to imagine no Chinese influence gets through.

More and more people are learning Chinese too, did you know that?

Where did I say that no Asian influence can ever penetrate Europe?

There is a difference between what can happen, and what has happened.

For example, so called "Israel" can be eliminated from the planet (if certain conditions are met), BUT so called "Israel" has not been eliminated from the planet, yet.

Likewise, East Asian influence can penetrate Western world, but nowadays, it is minor.

More and more people may be learning Chinese, but what is the total percentage of people that learnt Chinese? Probably, less than 1%? What is total percentage of Chinese or East Asians that learnt European languages? What is the top destination for Chinese university students? Can a superpower rely on its rival for educating its students?

Yes, lets band together the rest of world and compare to China. All "western" countries are similar, they all take pride into each other's contribution, their technology transfer is ok and can be attributed to each other because they look the same so they are a single unity. lol. A discussion mostly based on racial division is borderline racist reminiscent.

Actually I am really flattered that China is so powerful that a single country can be compared to the combination of all developed countries put together. An isolated people that has developed its unique civilization in far east for millenniums and still are going while most ancient people that created civilizations have died or been wiped out by barbarians that are now calling themselves "descendants" of civilization, lol. But more seriously, nobody is saying China is or will be superpower. Please leave us alone. Thanks.

Anyway, why is thread still going? It's nothing but a lone Benglar babbling.

The Western world's population is still lower than China, isn't it?

 

[JSCh]

During the turn of the last century, the self-isolated and change resisting Qing dynasty and their traditional Confucian world view was seen as a mistake. China cannot remained isolated while being secured. We tried that, the West would not let us alone, they would invade and steal from us. Even today, China would find it puzzling that the west would point finger and barge in businesses that they don't understand and has nothing to do with. But it is obvious that the old way could not be kept going. In order to secure or protect ourselves we need to swallow our pride and learn from the west.

There are debate on how much we should adapt to western value. Some argue that we need only western science and technology and some argue that is not enough and we need to adopt western political and even social system as well. Eventually, the later win the upper hand. A hundred year of trials and tribulations in political and social system has brought us to today China.

But if anyone is thinking that China is blindly accepting western value and the current global order, think again. If that is true, there would be no need for US to spend so much money, resource and decades in effort to do regime change in China.

Chinese today has adopted some western custom and practice just like Chinese adopting custom and practices of many other culture for thousand of years. Learning, adopting and assimilating what is good and appropriate for Chinese is part of progress.

Overwhelming majority of Chinese today is nationalistic and very proud of their Chinese heritage. The identity and philosophy of what is essentially Chinese is far more important then some superficial custom and practice.

China is the most populace nation in the world, a P5 member and a nuclear power. China has a duty to act responsibly in global affair. And you cannot do that without sufficiently understanding and integrating into what is currently prevailing in the world.

 

[Stealthfighter]

Being a superpower is our birthright.

 

[That Guy]

Being a superpower is our birthright.

6 posts and you're already banned...dude, read the rules.

 

[Viet]

Now jealous and envious?
Suggest you being a part of China.
So it will be you this and you that, you here and you there...

again a province of China for 1,000 years? No, thanks.

I make you another suggestion: China agrees on Vietnam can re-establish Indochina. We need to get bigger at first. After that, we can negotiate on a possible union of China and Indochina.

 

[UKBengali]

.

More and more people may be learning Chinese, but what is the total percentage of people that learnt Chinese? Probably, less than 1%? What is total percentage of Chinese or East Asians that learnt European languages? What is the top destination for Chinese university students? Can a superpower rely on its rival for educating its students?

I think you are being a little premature in accusing Chinese of not being able to innovate and of being awed by the "whites".

China would need to get a level where their total economic and military power has reached a level where they can be considered a "peer" to the West and then you will see innovation and them being no longer awed by "whites".

When you are much poorer both technologically and militarily than someone, then of course you will be somewhat impressed by them.

Even now the average Chinese has living standards only around a 1/3rd to 1/4 to that of Western countries.

Being behind technologically then of course you will imitate/copy. You will not be able to name one single example of a country that was so far behind the leaders who has not followed what China has done.

The huge numbers of Chinese students going overseas is also a natural consequence of China's still relative backwardness. Expect to see a dramatic drop in the next decade going forward.

Lastly, just because other rich East Asians are in awe of Westerners, that does not necessarily mean that it will hold for China. If China reaches the same level of industrialisation as them, then it will be as more powerful as all the West combined and the Chinese perspective on the West may even turn to one of contempt rather than inferiority.

 

[Minjitta]

China is a 3rd world supper power country, and would be great supper power for Pakistan and some Africans.

 

[Banglar Lathial]

I think you are being a little premature in accusing Chinese of not being able to innovate and of being awed by the "whites".

Not "whites" (whatever that means) but Westerners/Western "looking" people, especially Western 'looking' men in Mainland and all the other East Asian countries. If you fit the bill, and if you are not bound by religious mores (that is true for most Kafir Westerners), then East Asia is your "playground" if you know what I am talking about.

China would need to get a level where their total economic and military power has reached a level where they can be considered a "peer" to the West and then you will see innovation and them being no longer awed by "whites".

Russia and France are two counterexamples to this statement.

France has only recently unveiled its original, the first in the world PIF-PAF thrust vectored anti-air/anti-missile systems withstanding upto 50+G acceleration (Aster 15/Aster 30/probably Aster BMD in the works) and an alleged "hit to kiss" - rather than "hit to kill" - level of precision in targetting enemy missiles/aircrafts, and the first active radar guided anti-air/anti missile/naval AAW systems in the Western world. Thus, it is clear that they are confident enough, and capable enough, of generating ideas and realizing those concepts in real life, without having to look at another precedent.

Many similar examples for Russia, and many others.

When you are much poorer both technologically and militarily than someone, then of course you will be somewhat impressed by them.

As above, Russia, France and many others provide counterexamples.

Even now the average Chinese has living standards only around a 1/3rd to 1/4 to that of Western countries.

The average citizen of the Soviet Union was poorer than the average Westerner.

The average Westerner is poorer than the average Qatari, Kuwaiti or Emirati CITIZEN.

They still never suffered from such widespread inferiority complex.

Being behind technologically then of course you will imitate/copy. You will not be able to name one single example of a country that was so far behind the leaders who has not followed what China has done.

So called "technology" is not a "linear" graph that you are either "behind" or "ahead".

Consider the PIF-PAF thrust vectoring patented by Aerospatiale, France for its Aster-15/Aster-30 etc missiles.

One could argue that prior to this development, French air defence/anti air/BMD capability was inferior to X, Y or Z. That did not prevent the French from inventing hitherto unforeseen technology.

The huge numbers of Chinese students going overseas is also a natural consequence of China's still relative backwardness. Expect to see a dramatic drop in the next decade going forward.

No disagreements. So, it is only natural that a country still reliant on sending large numbers of students to America (like Saudi Arabia, low IQ Hindustan, and some others) will not surpass America as a superpower (but will probably surpass America in GDP soon, in next 4 to 5 years).

Lastly, just because other rich East Asians are in awe of Westerners, that does not necessarily mean that it will hold for China. If China reaches the same level of industrialisation as them, then it will be as more powerful as all the West combined and the Chinese perspective on the West may even turn to one of contempt rather than inferiority.

How Mainland Chinese will act in the future is a matter of speculation, since none of us know the future for sure.

However, for anybody who has closely followed lifestyle, events, trends, in East Asia closely, including Mainland China, they would know that currently, the East Asian general public is in awe of anything Western, as are their decision makers and governments.

 

[UKBengali]

Russia and France are two counterexamples to this statement.

France has only recently unveiled its original, the first in the world PIF-PAF thrust vectored anti-air/anti-missile systems withstanding upto 50+G acceleration (Aster 15/Aster 30/probably Aster BMD in the works) and an alleged "hit to kiss" - rather than "hit to kill" - level of precision in targetting enemy missiles/aircrafts, and the first active radar guided anti-air/anti missile/naval AAW systems in the Western world. Thus, it is clear that they are confident enough, and capable enough, of generating ideas and realizing those concepts in real life, without having to look at another precedent.

Many similar examples for Russia, and many others.

France is very developed Western country with high living standards. It is part of the Western world and has benefited from technology transfer from the leader of the West, United States, that China will never get.

True Russia was only as rich relative to the West as the Chinese are now. However the great difference is that Russia benefited to access to the best WW2 technology from the Nazis and also Rollys-Royce sold them the best turbofan engine at the time to Russia which they used to power the Mig-17s. These Mig-17s ironically shot down many Western aircraft in Korea. Also remember that the Russians were spending 10-14% of their GDP on the military for 5 decades after WW2 whereas China has been spending around 2% for the last 2 decades.

The average Westerner is poorer than the average Qatari, Kuwaiti or Emirati CITIZEN.

They still never suffered from such widespread inferiority complex.

No offence but it is very difficult to feel inferior to Gulf Arabs who became rich by an accident of geography under their feet.

No disagreements. So, it is only natural that a country still reliant on sending large numbers of students to America (like Saudi Arabia, low IQ Hindustan, and some others) will not surpass America as a superpower (but will probably surpass America in GDP soon, in next 4 to 5 years).

True, that as long as you need knowledge from others, then you can no longer be a superpower but the question is how long will large numbers of Chinese students keep going to the US?

I think not much longer as the Chinese are rapidly closing the technological gap with the West.

How Mainland Chinese will act in the future is a matter of speculation, since none of us know the future for sure.

If China becomes "developed" it will become the most powerful country in the world. This is an intrinsic human trait.

We need wait another decade or two to find out.

 

[Banglar Lathial]

France is very developed Western country with high living standards. It is part of the Western world and has benefited from technology transfer from the leader of the West, United States, that China will never get.

Quite irrelevant. We could also say that the United States benefitted from tech transfer, and importantly, a great 'brain drain' from Europe during World War II.

Australia or New Zealand are also developed, Western countries. They can design or build no 'high tech' civilian or military items in any sector. They can not introduce any innovative products or concepts either.

France can, same as Russia.

True Russia was only as rich relative to the West as the Chinese are now. However the great difference is that Russia benefited to access to the best WW2 technology from the Nazis and also Rollys-Royce sold them the best turbofan engine at the time to Russia which they used to power the Mig-17s. These Mig-17s ironically shot down many Western aircraft in Korea. Also remember that the Russians were spending 10-14% of their GDP on the military for 5 decades after WW2 whereas China has been spending around 2% for the last 2 decades.

That's not any 'great difference' but a 'great similarity'.

Do you think China is under any intense embargo or sanction like Iran, Iraq (during Saddam Hussein era), or North Korea?

China got its Z-9 helicopter from France, so even its military is strictly not under embargo in reality but only under embargo on paper.

China still gets most of its military aero engines from Russia for its top of the line fighter aircrafts. Did you forget how most Chinese members said they need to wait before they can export fighter aircrafts to Bangladesh?

That's not a 'restriction' for France, Russia, America or a consortium of European countries (Eurofighter Typhoon).

Besides that, Soviet Union in the past and Russia today introduced lots of innovative new weapons unseen before, anywhere. Not quite the case for China, yet, for both military and civilian sectors.

No offence but it is very difficult to feel inferior to Gulf Arabs who became rich by an accident of geography under their feet.

Difficult or not, the issue is irrelevant.

You implied that the Chinese feel inferior because "Even now the average Chinese has living standards only around a 1/3rd to 1/4 to that of Western countries.".

The same holds true for the Westerners with respect to the rich Gulf Arab citizens, or for the Soviet Union with respect to the Western world.

True, that as long as you need knowledge from others, then you can no longer be a superpower but the question is how long will large numbers of Chinese students keep going to the US?

These students can not come back to China in a day, or settle themselves in and mature in their respective fields all in a day.

It takes many years, or a decade or two, for a general transition from a knowledge-deficit country to a "knowledge-sufficient" country, simply because human brains can not absorb all the information and hone all the required skills that take multiple years of experience to master, within a year or two.

I think not much longer as the Chinese are rapidly closing the technological gap with the West.

You can think so, it's your choice.

But, even with this rapidity, they would not feel self confident enough to assert themselves against the West at the "micro level", at the ground level, in another two decades.

If China becomes "developed" it will become the most powerful country in the world. This is an intrinsic human trait.

We need wait another decade or two to find out.

The definition of 'developed country' is not set in stone, and there is no unique criterion to determine which is the strongest country in the world.

For example, if we restrict our analysis to only publicly declared nuclear weapons arsenal (yields), then Russia is the strongest country.

Using different criteria, United States comes out on top.