Why are we so adamant in our support for Palestine when they themselves support India against us?

[peagle]

Good statement. Unfortunately the world doesnt work this way. But feel to give examples where it actually did work for our education




Since 1979 the first peace treaty has been signed by arabs.. tell how much listening Israel has done?

For much of 20th century America was respected not feared, after the fall of the Soviet Union it preferred to use fear, look at the result.
China so far has used respect to gain power, but as it is becoming more belligerent the mood is changing gradually because some countries are becoming fearful of it.
Europe is respected the world over because they do not make you fearful. Norway a tiny country, but is a leading nation in peace negotiations because it commands respect. There are so many examples if only one chooses to look and recognize.

You have made an assumption that an action results in another exact response, in science it may be the case, but not in politics, and this is politics. Arabs have signed peace treaties with Israel for their own benefits, not for the benefit of Palestinians.

We need no peace treaty, just an act of recognition, knowing Pakistani nature we would use all-new available options to a push for Palestinian rights. Would you really pay attention to the guy who refuses to knowledge your existence, you would hate him with all your might, but you would be prepared to listen to someone who respects your existence.

Please look at things objectively, not through emotions. No solution is simple, each action is a step towards a solution, but some actions are regressive, not recognizing Israel is a regressive action. recognizing it will not lead to peace but it is a step towards finding a solution.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Would you really pay attention to the guy who refuses to knowledge your existence, you would hate him with all your might, but you would be prepared to listen to someone who respects your existence.

Spot on. Those who wish to improve the plight of ordinary Palestinians are actually harming their cause by refusing to recognise Israel. You've explained it very well.

 

[tkmd]

Israel ain't no angel for sure, neither are the Palestinians. Both sides in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are also very hypocritical in terms of behaviour and their complaints about one another. However, the problem is that we only notice and criticise the Israelis because of the ummah concept.

The sooner we ditch the concept of ummah, the better. The holy sites in Jerusalem are what matter most in reality. If a solution can be reached to preserve and respect their integrity against the threats of extremist Zionists and fundamentalist Christians, then Israel should automatically be a nation that Pakistan actually sympathises with. Our security situations are very similar in arbitrary terms. They have routinely thwarted numerically superior opponents conventionally and their spy agencies strike hard and decisively the world over. Pakistan should be learning from and trading with them, not antagonising them.

It is amazing to me the level of religious illiteracy amongst people on this forum. Do you even know what you are saying? “The sooner we ditch the concept of ummah, the better”. That is what you said...literally. That is open kufr.

Sarah Ali ‘Imran Ayah 110:

كُنتُمْ خَيْرَ أُمَّةٍ أُخْرِجَتْ لِلنَّاسِ تَأْمُرُونَ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَتَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ الْمُنكَرِ وَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ ۗ وَلَوْ آمَنَ أَهْلُ الْكِتَابِ لَكَانَ خَيْرًا لَّهُم ۚ مِّنْهُمُ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ وَأَكْثَرُهُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ

You are literally advocating for something that Allah Himself praises in the Qur’an. You are literally advocating for something that the Prophet and his Companions struggled for.

Sunan al Tirmidhi:

عَنْ ابْنِ عُمَرَ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَجْمَعُ أُمَّتِي عَلَى ضَلَالَةٍ وَيَدُ اللَّهِ مَعَ الْجَمَاعَةِ


Bottom line....all of those with zero religious knowledge need to stop making sweeping statements because you all are making statements that are outright or close to kufr.

As to the issue of Arabs/Palestinians....are you people actually criticizing an occupied, enslaved people? I have so many Palestinian friends and they have nothing but love for us. They are amazing people. They are not fans of the PLO. The leaders in the Arab states do not represent their people. If that is the measure by which we are judging then lets be clear we are no angels either. How about we work on making ourselves economically strong enough to actually command respect and leadership in the Muslim world instead of dumping on helpless abused people.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

It is amazing to me the level of religious illiteracy amongst people on this forum. Do you even know what you are saying? “The sooner we ditch the concept of ummah, the better”. That is what you said...literally. That is open kufr.

Sarah Ali ‘Imran Ayah 110:

كُنتُمْ خَيْرَ أُمَّةٍ أُخْرِجَتْ لِلنَّاسِ تَأْمُرُونَ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَتَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ الْمُنكَرِ وَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ ۗ وَلَوْ آمَنَ أَهْلُ الْكِتَابِ لَكَانَ خَيْرًا لَّهُم ۚ مِّنْهُمُ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ وَأَكْثَرُهُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ

You are literally advocating for something that Allah Himself praises in the Qur’an. You are literally advocating for something that the Prophet and his Companions struggled for.

Sunan al Tirmidhi:

عَنْ ابْنِ عُمَرَ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَجْمَعُ أُمَّتِي عَلَى ضَلَالَةٍ وَيَدُ اللَّهِ مَعَ الْجَمَاعَةِ


Bottom line....all of those with zero religious knowledge need to stop making sweeping statements because you all are making statements that are outright or close to kufr.

As to the issue of Arabs/Palestinians....are you people actually criticizing an occupied, enslaved people? I have so many Palestinian friends and they have nothing but love for us. They are amazing people. They are not fans of the PLO. The leaders in the Arab states do not represent their people. If that is the measure by which we are judging then lets be clear we are no angels either. How about we work on making ourselves economically strong enough to actually command respect and leadership in the Muslim world instead of dumping on helpless abused people.

Try to keep a sense of context. The ummah spoken of back then was a pure and correctly motivated one. I would never criticise that in the slightest. Everyone from king to pauper was reading off the same page. Today's version of the "ummah" is an exploitative concept that some mullahs use to mobilise populations for malevolent ends. It is the exclusive abode of those who would take advantage of religious sentiments and at the end of any ummah-related jihad you would see 5% of Muslims having achieved some beneficial outcome while millions lie disenfranchised one way or another or dead for no good reason. I understand your argument but it is simply too vulnerable to exploitation as a modern concept. Just consider some of the people and organisations who cite "ummah" as a means to mobilise popular support for their movements.

When many non-Muslims have better intentions towards Pakistan than our corrupted brethren, why even deny this reality?

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

@Cliftonite

Janab.... please don't bring such drama in our forum.

Usually, I enjoy reading your posts and tend not to comment as I agree with most of what you have to say.
But, this time your hypothesis has gone into the realm of fantasy, fact-based analysis is always better than presenting worst-case scenarios and accepting them as the only outcome.

I am telling you the reality. If you want to open pandora's box, then be ready. Whole world will go against you, and you will have no one to blame but yourselves.

Go into the streets of Pakistan, and see the response of people when you start talking about Israel.

Try to keep a sense of context. The ummah spoken of back then was a pure and correctly motivated one. I would never criticise that in the slightest. Everyone from king to pauper was reading off the same page. Today's version of the "ummah" is an exploitative concept that some mullahs use to mobilise populations for malevolent ends. It is the exclusive abode of those who would take advantage of religious sentiments and at the end of any ummah-related jihad you would see 5% of Muslims having achieved some beneficial outcome while millions lie disenfranchised one way or another or dead for no good reason. I understand your argument but it is simply too vulnerable to exploitation as a modern concept. Just consider some of the people and organisations who cite "ummah" as a means to mobilise popular support for their movements.

When many non-Muslims have better intentions towards Pakistan than our corrupted brethren, why even deny this reality?

Acceptance of Israel gives us no positives, and I am vehemently opposed to it, just like vast majority of the citizens of Pakistan.

Yes, it is fashionable now that KSA is doing it, but we are an Islamic republic, the contract of the people and our state is Islam.

If we betray Islam, we will be finished.

Israel will still help India 100%, bus hum apne aap ko bila waja bezzat karenge.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Janab.... please don't bring such drama in our forum.



I am telling you the reality. If you want to open pandora's box, then be ready. Whole world will go against you, and you will have no one to blame but yourselves.

Go into the streets of Pakistan, and see the response of people when you start talking about Israel.



Acceptance of Israel gives us no positives, and I am vehemently opposed to it, just like vast majority of the citizens of Pakistan.

Yes, it is fashionable now that KSA is doing it, but we are an Islamic republic, the contract of the people and our state is Islam.

If we betray Islam, we will be finished.

Israel will still help India 100%, bus hum apne aap ko bila waja bezzat karenge.

As always I respect your take on things and you make good points but focused on the popular perspective rather than pragmatism. I do honestly feel it is no longer in our interests to ignore Israel. There is no reason that Pakistan cannot extract benefit from a trade relation with Israel to actually exert leverage on USA and indeed to outflank India. Pakistan should be less predictable and more flexitarian.

It may well be a moot discussion anyway as the ship may already have sailed. You imply that whatever we do, Israel will supply India against us - that may be true now, but it wasn't always true. It's only really the last ten years that Israel went full Bollywood.

 

[tkmd]

Try to keep a sense of context. The ummah spoken of back then was a pure and correctly motivated one. I would never criticise that in the slightest. Everyone from king to pauper was reading off the same page. Today's version of the "ummah" is an exploitative concept that some mullahs use to mobilise populations for malevolent ends. It is the exclusive abode of those who would take advantage of religious sentiments and at the end of any ummah-related jihad you would see 5% of Muslims having achieved some beneficial outcome while millions lie disenfranchised one way or another or dead for no good reason. I understand your argument but it is simply too vulnerable to exploitation as a modern concept. Just consider some of the people and organisations who cite "ummah" as a means to mobilise popular support for their movements.

When many non-Muslims have better intentions towards Pakistan than our corrupted brethren, why even deny this reality?

Saddening that you are doing what I sincerely warned everyone about in my original post. The ummah back then? Are you saying the Quran doesn’t apply to our time? Are you saying Allah did not know what would happen to Muslims in the future?

I urge you to study the religion with people of knowledge. Or at a deeper level. Every age of the religion has seen political discord, people using religion to drive agendas and crooked ulamah. The Prophet SAW spoke at length about this throughout his Prophethood. The bottom line is bc some people are doing wrong does not give us cause to disregard our religion. Are we those who are astray or those who take heed and call others to that which is right? Lastly, to say that unity with non Muslims is better than with Muslims is your opinion. But it is again not from our faith. Everyone knows the Hadith where Al Mustafa likened the ummah to a body. That ummah you discard as an antiquated concept. And by doing so you are implying that the Prophet is antiquated and the Message he brought has an expiration date.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

It is amazing to me the level of religious illiteracy amongst people on this forum. Do you even know what you are saying? “The sooner we ditch the concept of ummah, the better”. That is what you said...literally. That is open kufr.

Sarah Ali ‘Imran Ayah 110:

كُنتُمْ خَيْرَ أُمَّةٍ أُخْرِجَتْ لِلنَّاسِ تَأْمُرُونَ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَتَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ الْمُنكَرِ وَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ ۗ وَلَوْ آمَنَ أَهْلُ الْكِتَابِ لَكَانَ خَيْرًا لَّهُم ۚ مِّنْهُمُ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ وَأَكْثَرُهُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ

You are literally advocating for something that Allah Himself praises in the Qur’an. You are literally advocating for something that the Prophet and his Companions struggled for.

Sunan al Tirmidhi:

عَنْ ابْنِ عُمَرَ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَجْمَعُ أُمَّتِي عَلَى ضَلَالَةٍ وَيَدُ اللَّهِ مَعَ الْجَمَاعَةِ


Bottom line....all of those with zero religious knowledge need to stop making sweeping statements because you all are making statements that are outright or close to kufr.

As to the issue of Arabs/Palestinians....are you people actually criticizing an occupied, enslaved people? I have so many Palestinian friends and they have nothing but love for us. They are amazing people. They are not fans of the PLO. The leaders in the Arab states do not represent their people. If that is the measure by which we are judging then lets be clear we are no angels either. How about we work on making ourselves economically strong enough to actually command respect and leadership in the Muslim world instead of dumping on helpless abused people.

It was the policy of our founding fathers, our bozorg, and generations of Muslims descended from the Prophet saws and Sahabah to maintain to sanctity of our holy places in Al Aqsa.

I feel like it is a tremendous disrespect to Hazrat Umar RA and great leaders like Khalid bin Waleed, Salahuddin Al Ayyubi, Mamelook, Osmanghazi, and others for us to abandon our principled stance on Israel.

We stand alone in the whole world in having this line on our passport.

In addition to our reality as a nuclear state, one founded on Islamic identity, and our unwillingness to establish ties with Israel.

I feel that Rasulullah saws would look down on us with pride and love for this great courage and bravery against the most evil and vile regime in the world today.

Israel has been active against Pakistan from the beginning. Ben Gurion declared Pakistan as enemy number one, even more than the Arabs. Many Israeli founding fathers looked with fear and apprehension at the power and strength emanating from Pakistan. The fear of a nuclear response from Pakistan kept Israeli ambitions against Arabs in check. Nuclear weapons or other sinister devices could not be deployed enmasse on Arab populations. We all know about Kahuta.

The Israel-Indian-US nexus functions together. They did so in Afghanistan, and they are doing it now at the LoC. Did we forget the Israeli pilot we captured?

Now the US is in its decline, Israel aspires to replace the US. Already, they have gathered tech giants into their country and made themselves an authority on cyber security. All social media companies work with their companies. Slowly but surely they are gathering gold from Africa and India.

Their neighboring Arab states have been brought to their knees, either in civil war, bankruptcy, or armtwisting by the US. Once Egypt, the most feared neighbor of Israel is completely de-fanged and starving of water. The other one, Syria is engaged in a bloody civil war. Iraq is no more. Libya is in disarray. Yemen... Somalia...

Perhaps only Turkey stands against Israeli ambitions in the region, and a whole alliance of countries from the region are working together against the Turks.

In this case it is of utmost importance that Pakistan stands firm in its opposition against Israel. We offer the Muslim world another way, other than acquiescence of injustice, enslavement, and massacres of our brother and sister Palestinian masses.

Dekhayye, Quaid e Azam RAA kya kehte they Israel ke saath ta'loq rakhne pe.

As always I respect your take on things and you make good points but focused on the popular perspective rather than pragmatism. I do honestly feel it is no longer in our interests to ignore Israel. There is no reason that Pakistan cannot extract benefit from a trade relation with Israel to actually exert leverage on USA and indeed to outflank India. Pakistan should be less predictable and more flexitarian.

It may well be a moot discussion anyway as the ship may already have sailed. You imply that whatever we do, Israel will supply India against us - that may be true now, but it wasn't always true. It's only really the last ten years that Israel went full Bollywood.

Thanks for the respect brother. I think we both have interests of Islam and Pakistan at heart. Glad we can discuss these sensitive issues with mutual fraternity.

We differ on the best way forward, and that is ok. We should continue in this vein. Discussions are a healthy part of society.

 

[peagle]

Janab.... please don't bring such drama in our forum.



I am telling you the reality. If you want to open pandora's box, then be ready. Whole world will go against you, and you will have no one to blame but yourselves.

Go into the streets of Pakistan, and see the response of people when you start talking about Israel.



Acceptance of Israel gives us no positives, and I am vehemently opposed to it, just like vast majority of the citizens of Pakistan.

Yes, it is fashionable now that KSA is doing it, but we are an Islamic republic, the contract of the people and our state is Islam.

If we betray Islam, we will be finished.

Israel will still help India 100%, bus hum apne aap ko bila waja bezzat karenge.

You were telling me a future outcome, not reality.

In this reply, you have raised a different point, the present situation in Pakistan. Yes, the public support is not there for recognition of Israel, but that is the point of this thread, we are presenting an argument that not recognizing Israel is illogical and hoping that the people of Pakistan will understand.

Please try to restrict to relevant points, makes it easier to reach a conclusion, and reduces the need for lengthy repetitive replies, thank you.

 

[Cliftonite]

It is the corrupt Ruling Establishment of Pakistan that keeps drumming this beat at the behest of corrupt fat mullahs of Pakistan. These people in the Civilian, Religious and Military Establishment should be ashamed of themselves for keeping millions here starving and without health care while they beat this pathetic and useless drum of Muslim Ummah and specially Palestinians, who not not only nobody knows in Pakistan, but these are the same Palestinians General Zia crushed in Jordan when they wanted to overthrow the King of Jordan ! The height of bullshi.t are these shameless Clowns ruling Pakistan.

Thank you for mentioning this. The Black September massacre. Around 5000-10000 Palestinians killed. Higher estimates go to 25000. Mard e momin Zia ul Haq's troops were party to it. He didn't remember his ummah chummah then.

 

[Yankee-stani]

Thank you for mentioning this. The Black September massacre. Around 5000-10000 Palestinians killed. Higher estimates go to 25000. Mard e momin Zia ul Haq's troops were party to it. He didn't remember his ummah chummah then.

Yeah which is part of the reason why I despise him and his ilk for that

 

[Cliftonite]

Yeah which is part of the reason why I despise him and his ilk for that

He shouldn't have meddled in a foreign country but I have no sympathy for Palestinians either. Jordan gave them refuge and citizenship. In return they tried to overthrow Jordan's government. The Black September was in response to that. Palestinians did the same when they went to Lebanon and started a civil war there. Then they were expelled from there too.

 

[Yankee-stani]

He shouldn't have meddled in a foreign country but I have no sympathy for Palestinians either. Jordan gave them refuge and citizenship. In return they tried to overthrow Jordan's government. The Black September was in response to that. Palestinians did the same when they went to Lebanon and started a civil war there. Then they were expelled from there too.

Nah the Monarchy are filled with scum and were Anglo-American puppets and also part of reason why Israel is stronger

 

[Trango Towers]

We only support the Palestinians due to al quds. Aside from that they are just as pathetic as the rest of the arabs

 

[Cliftonite]

Nah the Monarchy are filled with scum and were Anglo-American puppets and also part of reason why Israel is stronger

So is every other monarchy in the Middle East. But Jordan has had the best stance towards Palestinians since 1948. It's the ONLY Arab country to give Palestinians citizenships and even now grants temporary passports to West Bank residents. 60% of Jordanian population is of Palestinian origin. Don't believe me just Google it.