Why and how the US must confront Burma's Rohingya genocide

[Zabaniyah]

Uh, have we ever talked before?

We didn't talk much. But I did observe you often. Your opinions on the plight of the Rohingya were very interesting to read (if not bigoted) which you and your pals at the Tatmaydaw and working so, so hard to suppress. Enough for it not to be even mentioned in ASEAN in what is the world's biggest humanitarian crisis today.

Do you honestly believe that we are all so stupid to not see what is going on there? The biggest winners here are China and the Tatmaydaw.

Enlighten me then, what are my opinions on the Balkan War?

It's funny that you claim to know my opinion on issues which I know nothing about and don't have any real opinions on.

I trust you read my post. It's either you didn't read it or read it too well to invoke a response. But I hope you read it.

No, I didn't ask for your opinion of the Balkan Wars. Or any war for that matter. So that won't be necessary. In fact, the post was only intended for Bangladeshis to understand their situation. But I doubt its effect. Such a fragile lot.

I was drawing a parallel such as to give Bangladeshis input as to how Bangladesh can determine the environment to secure its interests rather than let the environment determine it. We as an intelligent species always devised ways to claim power over the environment, and others.

In light of the calamity, my only interest is to secure Bangladesh's security. Nothing more. I trust your country will deliver given the favorable relations between China and Bangladesh. Fail, and there will be consequences.

I quite look forward to your inputs/analysis (I don't aee with everything of course....but you have consistency and I have never seen you resort to personal attacks etc, wish it could be said for more in this forum) .

An oasis in this parched desert comes to mind Most people now (esp online) don't get nuance and expansive debating...most are after quick reactionary potshots....so you will find most of the responses geared that way unfortunately.

Well, not all opinions are the same. Otherwise, what's the point right? It was better before. But in some weird way, it evolved into a weird rant forum. And this sub-form is certainly no exception Bangladeshis are a very small group here.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Fail, and there will be consequences.

What, are you going to put your hand out and ask us for more loans?

Are you going to backstab us on Sonadia port, oh wait didn't you already do that?

which you and your pals at the Tatmaydaw

Yes, my "pals" at the "Tatmaydaw", is that supposed to be something to do with Myanmar?

The irony of your position is that it is Bangladesh who is equally complicit in the slaughter of the Rohingya.

Despite multiple requests from the UNHCR, Bangladesh has refused to even give refugee status to the Rohingya. Bangladesh's official position is to throw the Rohingya back to Myanmar as soon as possible, where they will be killed. Which is no different from killing them with your own hands.

Now when even their fellow Bengali Muslims are killing them, what do you expect from anyone else? Right now Hasina's priority is to "maintain good relations with Myanmar".

 

[Arefin007]

The US has become less religious overtime, but it's far from an atheist country

they only have evangelicals and crazy cult stuff crazy place

 

[Zabaniyah]

What, are you going to put your hand out and ask us for more loans?

No.

Not a fan of G2G loans for that matter. I prefer commercial loans and voluntary rules of contract. They get things done on a need to do basis and keep people happy and profitable.

Are you going to backstab us on Sonadia port, oh wait didn't you already do that?

And, what did Bangladesh gain by backstabbing? Do you know how overcrowded the ports are? Late shipments for Bangladeshi exporters is very common which translates into delayed proceeds.

In other words, it gained nothing out of backstabbing China on that matter. Why did it happen? One word: India.

Yes, my "pals" at the "Tatmaydaw", is that supposed to be something to do with Myanmar?

The Tatmaydaw is the name of their combined military. So yes, it has everything to do with Burma.

The irony of your position is that it is Bangladesh who is equally complicit in the slaughter of the Rohingya.

Despite multiple requests from the UNHCR, Bangladesh has refused to even give refugee status to the Rohingya. Bangladesh's official position is to throw the Rohingya back to Myanmar as soon as possible, where they will be killed. Which is no different from killing them with your own hands.

Now when even their fellow Bengali Muslims are killing them, what do you expect from anyone else? Right now Hasina's priority is to "maintain good relations with Myanmar".

That 'agreement' between Bangladesh and Myanmar was a bizarre form of diplomacy. We cannot say at this point if Bangladesh would force the survivors back into Rakhine. Hasina wouldn't risk that 'goody goody' image by doing that. So there's nothing ironic here even if it appears on the surface that way.

Should Bangladesh give them refugee status? I'm not an expert on the matter, but senior officials knowledgeable on the matter believe that it'll make it more difficult for them to return to Burma. They are willing to give them space though.
http://thedailynewnation.com/news/150227/3000-acres-land-allocated-for-rohingya-refugees.html

Hopefully, that'll solve the issue of the lack of space. It is in Bangladesh's interests that they go back to Burma ASAP. Bangladesh is a poor and densely populated country. How many mouths can it feed and for how many can it provide security in a nation where security is scarce? Though, chances of them going back appear slim. Who knows? Maybe in the future, they might get refugee status. Experience with handling a crisis of such proportion may give Bangladesh new skills which can prove useful in the future.

I would describe Hasina as a narcissist to the core. She wants that Nobel badly while at the same time, maintaining an iron grip on the country like as if she owns it. The Rohingyas with their experiences and values that are to develop, should they integrate into Bangladeshi society is a threat to her party's reign in the long run.

And last but not the least, I have enormous respect for China. Had it not been for their economic miracle and manufacturing prowess, many of the things we poorer Asians take for granted today would not exist. I can say similar for its military. It has a lot of firepower that would make even the most hardened NATO soldier shiver. It is a sleeping dragon.

It's nice to progress, but not so at the expense of others regardless of what goes on in their homes and especially with regards to ethnicity/religion.

 

[Nilgiri]

We cannot say at this point if Bangladesh would force the survivors back into Rakhine.

Next to no chance of that. Burma specifically included that only those willing to return voluntarily (along with a bunch of other requirements like acknowledged registration papers etc that may have all been burned by now anyway) would be allowed back (and defined on MM's terms, and MM decision is the final one in each case).

But I guess let's see. I don't see more than a single digit percentage of the 600,000+ returning to MM under these conditions.....and it doesn't even cover the 300,000+ (up to or even past a million according to some) that fled to BD in earlier waves.

Honestly BD should just make the most of this situation by A) giving them full refugee status B) Accept the full funding from Turkey and others C) Integrate them, train them, make them economically productive so they are not a burden long term to BD but rather an asset. I am sure BD can even prolong its RMG quota after LDC graduation on basis of this alone (Rohingya RMG factories within BD)

Sitting around with the burden complex and doing everything on optics base (for some ego posturing etc) is not going to help BD at all. But then you are right about SHW attitude, so who knows how it will go....she will exploit this situation to the maximum for her own political agenda....whatever it costs BD and these rohingya.

 

[axisofevil]

Nah the USA should just stay away from this conflict. Let the Muslims of the middle east do something productive for once...

 

[UKBengali]

Next to no chance of that. Burma specifically included that only those willing to return voluntarily (along with a bunch of other requirements like acknowledged registration papers etc that may have all been burned by now anyway) would be allowed back (and defined on MM's terms, and MM decision is the final one in each case).

But I guess let's see. I don't see more than a single digit percentage of the 600,000+ returning to MM under these conditions.....and it doesn't even cover the 300,000+ (up to or even past a million according to some) that fled to BD in earlier waves.

Honestly BD should just make the most of this situation by A) giving them full refugee status B) Accept the full funding from Turkey and others C) Integrate them, train them, make them economically productive so they are not a burden long term to BD but rather an asset. I am sure BD can even prolong its RMG quota after LDC graduation on basis of this alone (Rohingya RMG factories within BD)

Sitting around with the burden complex and doing everything on optics base (for some ego posturing etc) is not going to help BD at all. But then you are right about SHW attitude, so who knows how it will go....she will exploit this situation to the maximum for her own political agenda....whatever it costs BD and these rohingya.

I do not understand why no-one understands the simple fact that BD has 3.5x greater GDP than Myanmar and there is little chance this will change. Also BD is a unitary country unlike the multi-ethnic mess of the Barman entity.

BD will have no choice but to take military action to restore the Rohingyas back to their homelands. Barmans can just watch and cry. China may do it's retarded veto at UN(this has done immense damage to China's long-term ambitions of becoming a power to rival the US) but it will not risk a single soldier to save them from BD.

 

[Nilgiri]

I do not understand why no-one understands the simple fact that BD has 3.5x greater GDP than Myanmar and there is little chance this will change. Also BD is a unitary country unlike the multi-ethnic mess of the Barman entity.

BD will have no choice but to take military action to restore the Rohingyas back to their homelands. Barmans can just watch and cry. China may do it's retarded veto at UN(this has done immense damage to China's long-term ambitions of becoming a power to rival the US) but it will not risk a single soldier to save them from BD.

Ok so we are back to the "we will shoot the next MM aircraft that trespasses BD airspace...just you watch" blah blah kind of stuff.

Put your foot where your mouth is please. BD can literally have a military 10, 100 times bigger than now and project a BD STRONK 2030 plan whatever X times bigger than now, doesnt mean anything to its backbone. Without a backbone, its simply a money dump....keeping your capex starved country even more LDC ridden long term as a double whammy.

You can see for yourself next year how many rohingya return to MM and how SHW wins the BD election anyway...and MM will just keep doing what its doing after that, and you will keep doing what you are doing here.

Sorry pal, you are a weak country....always have been, always will be. You can keep clinging to some silver lining and hoping for some dissonant change as much as you want, everyone else just sees the reality.

Don't take my word for it, just look at it year after year yourself as long as you stay on this green earth. Nothing beats actually what happens.

 

[Zabaniyah]

Next to no chance of that. Burma specifically included that only those willing to return voluntarily (along with a bunch of other requirements like acknowledged registration papers etc that may have all been burned by now anyway) would be allowed back (and defined on MM's terms, and MM decision is the final one in each case).

But I guess let's see. I don't see more than a single digit percentage of the 600,000+ returning to MM under these conditions.....and it doesn't even cover the 300,000+ (up to or even past a million according to some) that fled to BD in earlier waves.

Honestly BD should just make the most of this situation by A) giving them full refugee status B) Accept the full funding from Turkey and others C) Integrate them, train them, make them economically productive so they are not a burden long term to BD but rather an asset. I am sure BD can even prolong its RMG quota after LDC graduation on basis of this alone (Rohingya RMG factories within BD)

Sitting around with the burden complex and doing everything on optics base (for some ego posturing etc) is not going to help BD at all. But then you are right about SHW attitude, so who knows how it will go....she will exploit this situation to the maximum for her own political agenda....whatever it costs BD and these rohingya.

The so-called 'experts' did not specify as to why and how the giving them refugee status would make repatriation more difficult. We have been doing this for almost 40 years, and yet no solution.

I agree that they should be given refugee status and enable them to learn real-life skills, get the Rohingya diaspora (particularly the more well-off ones living abroad) involved. They would be of great help.

What is bizarre about the diplomacy with Myanmar is that it was none other than China that encouraged us to reach a bilateral solution (based on our previous 40 year old repatriation agreement) with limited or close to no involvement of the international community and the UN (why?). And we did that just apart from of-course non-involvement of the international community and the UN (and rightly so).

Even now, survivors are pouring in. So much for China's proposal.

Bangladesh doesn't need Chinese loans in light of the calamity. It would be folly to assume that providing loans is a work of charity as @Chinese-Dragon erroneously put it. It is a system of approvals from multiple levels from both sides and for which projects along with the terms and conditions are approved. By providing a loan, it is the lender that creates an asset on his balance sheet while for the borrower, it is a liability on the same. In other words, giving debt is basically a form of control over the borrower (the very reason why I generally oppose G2G loans). And not charity. It was merely a limit offered by the Chinese. That is all. Approvals must be there for disbursements to take place.

No, what Bangladesh needs is security. And this commitment has to be beyond mere words. That being said, the only situation where Bangladesh would use violence against the Rohingya is whenever members of their community will resort to terrorism. And hopefully, it doesn't come to that. If external violent third parties exploit the situation, it will be a very serious problem for all.

As far as China is concerned, if that is not strategic delusion, then I don't know what is.

I do not understand why no-one understands the simple fact that BD has 3.5x greater GDP than Myanmar and there is little chance this will change. Also BD is a unitary country unlike the multi-ethnic mess of the Barman entity.

BD will have no choice but to take military action to restore the Rohingyas back to their homelands. Barmans can just watch and cry. China may do it's retarded veto at UN(this has done immense damage to China's long-term ambitions of becoming a power to rival the US) but it will not risk a single soldier to save them from BD.

A smaller country fighting a larger country with the unconditional backing of even a larger one? One has to think very carefully. War is expensive, and that in a larger country with a complex jungle terrain (terrain is very important). Defeat is not an option. Considering that, taking care of refugees is easier.

One way Bangladesh can start off with is to gather more, and more evidence with close collaboration with the UN, researchers etc. to prove that genocide did occur. Military action is not, and will not be off the table. It is a long-term scenario. And at least, Bangladesh should be able to sufficiently occupy northern Rakhine to secure its interests, with or without China who's role is more than a mere veto at the UNSC.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...solution-on-myanmars-persecution-of-rohingya/

Bangladesh has done well in gaining support with or without China and their pet Duterte along with some country we have never heard of (Burundi? Seriously where is that?). Garnering support is no small feat given Bangladesh's weaknesses and limitations. But still, a long way to go to justify military action.

Notice that the Pope's mere mention of the word 'Rohingya' irritated the Burmese during his visit to Dhaka. I have seen Burmese members getting angry that the Rohingyas are getting aid in Bangladesh but not in Rakhine. They got angry that Queen Raina visited Rohingyas in Bangladesh. They got angry that World Bank wants to finance a refugee program. Man, so much anger! And that says something.

That says that they are not taking responsibility for what is happening. China's endorsement is emboldening them and making them sloppy.

The goal here would be to completely destroy their volatile military regime and actually allow the civilian to do his/her job after teaching them a hard lesson that there are consequences. General Hliang underestimated the retaliation and the attention he is grabbing. And that is a very good start for us. Any general that grabs the headlines is a bad general. He is the ace of spades on the deck of cards.

The halo is to placed strategically. It is only a matter of time. And hopefully, this calamity serves as a wake-up call for us all.

Let me share with you a little secret: Attack alliances.

 

[Species]

Let me share with you a little secret: Attack alliances.

Do you have faith on our intelligence agencies?

 

[Centaur]

A smaller country fighting a larger country with the unconditional backing of even a larger one? One has to think very carefully. War is expensive, and that in a larger country with a complex jungle terrain (terrain is very important). Defeat is not an option. Considering that, taking care of refugees is easier.

One way Bangladesh can start off with is to gather more, and more evidence with close collaboration with the UN, researchers etc. to prove that genocide did occur. Military action is not, and will not be off the table. It is a long-term scenario. And at least, Bangladesh should be able to sufficiently occupy northern Rakhine to secure its interests, with or without China who's role is more than a mere veto at the UNSC.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...solution-on-myanmars-persecution-of-rohingya/

Bangladesh has done well in gaining support with or without China and their pet Duterte along with some country we have never heard of (Burundi? Seriously where is that?). Garnering support is no small feat given Bangladesh's weaknesses and limitations. But still, a long w

Very good point.Unfortunately you can't convince our country folks who are asking for military action.
Most of bangladeshi civilians live far from reality.
Any war against miyanmer will bring a great harm to our economy.
But sadly this truth is unacceptable to such peopels because perhaps they strongly believe that war is like walking on a garden with girlfriend.
So if some peoples believe that, since we are bangali so we are hero by default, so how can you make them understand that diplomacy is the best way and war is the last resort?

In Bangladesh doctors are greater in number than patients so we die faster.
Most of our civilians are war experts who learn war strategy from Hollywood movie! you must know bangladesh or any other country will not survive a single night, if this kind of "expert's opinions" are even partly accepted by defense force!

 

[Zabaniyah]

Do you have faith on our intelligence agencies?

Yes and no.

Very good point.Unfortunately you can't convince our country folks who are asking for military action.
Most of bangladeshi civilians live far from reality.
Any war against miyanmer will bring a great harm to our economy.
But sadly this truth is unacceptable to such peopels because perhaps they strongly believe that war is like walking on a garden with girlfriend.
So if some peoples believe that, since we are bangali so we are hero by default, so how can you make them understand that diplomacy is the best way and war is the last resort?

In Bangladesh doctors are greater in number than patients so we die faster.
Most of our civilians are war experts who learn war strategy from Hollywood movie! you must know bangladesh or any other country will not survive a single night, if this kind of "expert's opinions" are even partly accepted by defense force!

I do not expect everyone to know and understand war. It's probably better that way. But, I expect them to be humble and not some ruthless keyboard warrior.

Reality will hit them anytime soon. What is clear is that those people are not going to survive in the refugee camps for long. They need to get out to survive. What should be clear to everyone in Bangladesh at present is that their security lies in the fate and well-being of the Rohingyas. They should at least acknowledge that.

The current government is trying to solve it diplomatically. However, there isn't much progress. The only problem with the bilateral deal is that it was between us and their civilian government. There were reports that their border police did not even cooperate with the Rohingyas attempting to return to Myanmar territory. It's pretty bad for the Rohingya over there. Like, the tenth layer of Hell bad. What have they done to their country? There is also an absence of strategic will from key powers. It'll take time to build that momentum.

Our military had increasingly been participating in military exercises with India with our army chief even commemorating the many Indians soldiers who had fallen during the 71' War. It will surely enhance the operational efficiency and effectiveness of both armies. Perhaps that was what was in mind. It is also worth noting that there are Indian seperatists deep into Myanmar territory, and I mean deep. Their refusal to take responsibility for anything along with China's backing will get difficult. And maybe, we may get somewhere but it will take time altogether.

Bangladesh military follows a defensive doctrine. An offensive one will take investment and time (if there is any will to do so which I doubt). It takes time to assess each and every proposed weapon system before being finally deployed for service. Other than owning vast swathes of land, I don't have many complaints about them.

 

[Centaur]

I do not expect everyone to know and understand war. It's probably better that way. But, I expect them to be humble and not some ruthless keyboard warrior.

Reality will hit them anytime soon. What is clear is that those people are not going to survive in the refugee camps for long. They need to get out to survive. What should be clear to everyone in Bangladesh at present is that their security lies in the fate and well-being of the Rohingyas. They should at least acknowledge that.

Yes right. I exactly wanted to say this, that they should stop keyboard word, but will they? I doubt about it because we have pushing tendencies. However I wish they will try to stop this, and talk something fruitful.

The current government is trying to solve it diplomatically. However, there isn't much progress. The only problem with the bilateral deal is that it was between us and their civilian government. There were reports that their border police did not even cooperate with the Rohingyas attempting to return to Myanmar territory. It's pretty bad for the Rohingya over there. Like, the tenth layer of Hell bad. What have they done to their country?

There is also an absence of strategic will from key powers. It'll take time to build that momentum.

Well yes you are right. Bilateral deal wont work, specially when miyanmer is still in primitive stage,and the savages have no manner. The are careless ruthless and perhaps they only understand the language of weapon but this is the real problem in the modern world that it's not easy to take military action in modern days.

And also China is desperate to protect the butchers in United nation meeting. So even United nation can't take military action against miyanmer as long as China put veto on any resolution against miyanmer in UN meetings.I am frustrated that what is going to happen next. United nation attacked yugoslavia in order to save Bosnian Muslims.
Will they able to do it for rohingyas too? will China let them take any military action? Atleast China's current behavior is ruthless.
I never think that a fascist country like China who don't care public opinion( and also who are in primitive stage about human rights) is not worthy to have veto power.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

I never think that a fascist country like China who don't care public opinion( and also who are in primitive stage about human rights) is not worthy to have veto power.

India agrees with you, why don't you team up with them and fight against China? For example, by backstabbing China on Sonadia port?

 

[Centaur]

India agrees with you, why don't you team up with them and fight against China? For example, by backstabbing China on Sonadia port?

You too agree with me because I also believe that another primitive and savage country like India should also never ever get veto power.

So cheers .

And hey if China was situated between Bangladesh and Pakistan, then there is no such thing named China - Pakistan love marriage existed.
They would be fighting each other like India and Pakistan do.
if India is bad, China is not very good compared to them. Just with different perspective.

If India is bad, Chia is not way better.
Your country really need to go miles to be humanitarian like the western countries. Try to accept the bitter truth.

Peace and blessing