Why a plebiscite is not possible in Kashmir.

[PakEye]

No problem, there is also bamboo in white strip.
I agree with this one, I also don't consider them Indians.

“Go India, go back. Down with Indian democracy. We want freedom

 

[jaunty]

No problem, there is also bamboo in white strip.

Quite apt for Pakistan then.

 

[TankMan]

Most these points are just.. they're just so propagandistic and incorrect.
First of all, the problem is that these points are based on some main and incorrect premises:
-That pre-1947 Kashmir was majority Hindus and Non-Muslims
-That India has absolutely no interest in keeping Kashmir and that it has 'safeguarded' the Kashmiris' rights.
-That If Pakistan wanted, it could suddenly bring back all the displaced pundits and restore Jammu and Kashmir to factory settings as if it's some Android Phone.

The 1901 census showed that Muslims were a little over 70% of Jammu and Kashmir's population. So, if proper democratic procedure was followed and a referendum or plebiscite was held, the majority would have supported Kashmir joining Pakistan or being autonomous. However, Jammu had a very high Hindu population, so it is possible that they would have preferred India and we would have something like we have now with Jammu being part of India.

If India was so keen about safeguarding rights, the situation would have been a huge lot different, so don't give us that BS.

Now, to answer all of the points and present a counter-argument.

Even if a plebiscite was to happen according toUnited Nations Security Council 47, adopted on April 21, 1948, Pakistan was supposed to withdraw all of its forces from the territory which was the 1 condition of the resolution and which Pakistan did not until recently when Pakistan has changed the demography of the region with help of Islamist extremism in its favour. And result of that terrorism is the migration of Kashmiri pundit from valley. Unless these pundits and their successors are relocated in state, the plebiscite is not possible.

India did not withdraw its forces either. UNSC Resolution 47's clauses 2B and C say:

''The Government of India should: (b) Make known that the withdrawal is taking place in stages and announce the completion of each stage;
(c)When the Indian forces shall have been reduced to the minimum strength mentioned in clause (a) arrange in consultation with the Commission for the stationing of the
remaining forces to be carried out in accordance with the following principles:
(i) That the presence of troops should not afford any intimidation or appearance of
intimidation to the inhabitants of the State;
(ii) That as small a number as possible should be retained in forward areas;
(iii) That any reserve of troops which may be included in the total strength should be located
within their present base area.''
United Nations Official Document

India did not do that, now did they? Why does the resolution only apply to Pakistan?

Pakistan has changed the demography of the region with help of Islamist extremism in its favour. And result of that terrorism is the migration of Kashmiri pundit from valley.

Okay, now that is a baseless accusation. The Kashmiri pundits left voluntarily because they felt they didn't want to live in a place where there was a Muslim majority and where there's a bloody war. There was no 'changed the demography' with the help of 'Islamist extremism' (this implies a genocide).

They weren't that many anyways. Now, how is this point relevant to a solution? Do you plan on finding each and every pundit and getting him to return to Jammu and Kashmir to vote in a plebiscite? They've left Kashmir, they're settled in other places, what's the problem here? If the issue is ever solved, I'm sure they'll return voluntarily if they want to. As for people who are still displaced, any future solution must include a 'right of return', I agree with that.

Pakistan has created a false govt. of so called azad Kashmir which is directly under Pakistan govt. but Pakistan has not done anything to safeguard the rights of Kashmiri in Azad Kashmir. what i mean is that nowadays the Azad Kashmir is full with Punjabi Sunni Muslims form Punjab province of Pakistan who pledge their allegiance to Pakistan and the native Kashmiri in Azad Kashmir are almost migrated to other parts. On the other hand India did everything to safeguard rights of Kashmiri with introduction of article 370. Pakistan now cannot guarantee the originality of the voters from Azad Kashmir in case of plebiscite. I mean IF there are no original voters from Azad Kashmir then what actually voting is worth of?

Again, full of baseless accusations. Yes, the Azad Kashmir government is in Pakistan's favour. What's wrong with that? I never heard of an Azad Kashmiri saying they don't want ties with Pakistan. Heck, they call themselves Pakistani. Seriously, the UK is full of Azad Kashmiris, I talk to like twenty of them every day.

what i mean is that nowadays the Azad Kashmir is full with Punjabi Sunni Muslims form Punjab province of Pakistan who pledge their allegiance to Pakistan and the native Kashmiri in Azad Kashmir are almost migrated to other parts.

Ok, wait, what??? Again, this is wrong. Completely baseless.

Pakistan has ceded a large area of Karakoram to China, are they going to ask back that area from Chinese, because if the plebiscite has to be done it has to be done in whole region of J&K.

Yes, I agree, the people living in the Chinese controlled area should have the option of voting in the plebiscite.

Pakistan has created Gilgit-Baltistan as an autonomous region. They have deliberately cut that area from J&K and formed another state in Pakistan. Are they going to conduct the plebiscite there too? Because if plebiscite has to be done it has to be done according to pre 1947 J&K.

It's an administrative unit. Not a separate state or anything. It is already understood that a plebiscite must be held in the pre-1947 Kashmir area, I agree with that.

There lies another problem of Aksai-chin. How does the plebiscite happen there? I do not see “Democratic Republic” of China agreeing to their friend Pakistan in the process.

Again, the pre-1947 thing applies.

Is it just about the personal vendetta due to 1971?

This is just so laughable, shows how brainwashed Indians are. Do they teach you this kind of stuff in school? Did you forget that Kashmir dispute has been going on since almost 30 years before 1971?

Now, for my counter-argument
Look, we can cry about the old demography, old areas, old borders for the next 70 years. OR, we can solve the issue based on what the situation is right now because the truth is all those pundits who left aren't coming back, all the Muslims that left or died aren't coming back, so how about we focus on the people that are actually there and suffering right now?

It's simple but difficult, urge the UN to hold a proper plebiscite in all areas of Jammu and Kashmir but instead of keeping it so facile, focus on individual areas (constituencies, basically). Divide the whole area into many manageable constituencies. Whichever areas have majority voting for India can go ahead and join India. Whichever want Pakistan can join Pakistan and whichever want autonomy can become autonomous. Then we will see what the Kashmiris want and we will respect their decision.

The displaced people will automatically return to the places if the problem is solved like that. However, we would need to make sure Kashmiris are given the right to go to whichever part of Kashmir they want to.

But then comes the issue of keeping it fair and countless sub-issues, which I am sure can be solved if both countries put their stupid politics aside and work on it with the UN's help. Of course, that will never happen as long as India's unfair and supremacist mentality is prevalent.

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

Most these points are just.. they're just so propagandistic and incorrect.
First of all, the problem is that these points are based on some main and incorrect premises:
-That pre-1947 Kashmir was majority Hindus and Non-Muslims
-That India has absolutely no interest in keeping Kashmir and that it has 'safeguarded' the Kashmiris' rights.
-That If Pakistan wanted, it could suddenly bring back all the displaced pundits and restore Jammu and Kashmir to factory settings as if it's some Android Phone.

The 1901 census showed that Muslims were a little over 70% of Jammu and Kashmir's population. So, if proper democratic procedure was followed and a referendum or plebiscite was held, the majority would have supported Kashmir joining Pakistan or being autonomous. However, Jammu had a very high Hindu population, so it is possible that they would have preferred India and we would have something like we have now with Jammu being part of India.

If India was so keen about safeguarding rights, the situation would have been a huge lot different, so don't give us that BS.

Now, to answer all of the points and present a counter-argument.


India did not withdraw its forces either. UNSC Resolution 47's clauses 2B and C say:

''The Government of India should: (b) Make known that the withdrawal is taking place in stages and announce the completion of each stage;
(c)When the Indian forces shall have been reduced to the minimum strength mentioned in clause (a) arrange in consultation with the Commission for the stationing of the
remaining forces to be carried out in accordance with the following principles:
(i) That the presence of troops should not afford any intimidation or appearance of
intimidation to the inhabitants of the State;
(ii) That as small a number as possible should be retained in forward areas;
(iii) That any reserve of troops which may be included in the total strength should be located
within their present base area.''
United Nations Official Document

India did not do that, now did they? Why does the resolution only apply to Pakistan?

lol, Buddy , I said most of the PAK people don't know UN resolution .......

A) First Condition or First Step is to be taken by PAK ,is removing its force . When it is done, then the publicise can happen only.

B) PAK was aware that in 1947 muslims will keen to join India or remain impended.

C) thats why PAK didn't remove the troop and dose not wanted to do publicise.

You have to compete school in order reach engg. college or get admission in engg. college without passing school class? You are trying to telling us that we can engg college admission without passing school class.

Okay, now that is a baseless accusation. The Kashmiri pundits left voluntarily because they felt they didn't want to live in a place where there was a Muslim majority and where there's a bloody war. There was no 'changed the demography' with the help of 'Islamist extremism' (this implies a genocide).

Muslims Terriorts only killed hindus thats why they migrated. See the ISIS killing non-muslims today, its take some more then blind for not seeing.

They weren't that many anyways. Now, how is this point relevant to a solution? Do you plan on finding each and every pundit and getting him to return to Jammu and Kashmir to vote in a plebiscite? They've left Kashmir, they're settled in other places, what's the problem here? If the issue is ever solved, I'm sure they'll return voluntarily if they want to. As for people who are still displaced, any future solution must include a 'right of return', I agree with that.

Yea it is possible to find each and every one to do that.

Again, full of baseless accusations. Yes, the Azad Kashmir government is in Pakistan's favour. What's wrong with that? I never heard of an Azad Kashmiri saying they don't want ties with Pakistan. Heck, they call themselves Pakistani. Seriously, the UK is full of Azad Kashmiris, I talk to like twenty of them every day.

lol are you mad , anyone in PAK say anything about ISI/ PA cannot spend its single night alive , forget about AJK. they will be killed. and yes many were killed .

Ok, wait, what??? Again, this is wrong. Completely baseless.


Yes, I agree, the people living in the Chinese controlled area should have the option of voting in the plebiscite.

Why PAK give area to china without asking kashmir people? it tell a lot of Azad your J&K is.

It's an administrative unit. Not a separate state or anything. It is already understood that a plebiscite must be held in the pre-1947 Kashmir area, I agree with that.


Again, the pre-1947 thing applies.

then why it don't have PM /president etc.

This is just so laughable, shows how brainwashed Indians are. Do they teach you this kind of stuff in school? Did you forget that Kashmir dispute has been going on since almost 30 years before 1971?

Now, for my counter-argument
Look, we can cry about the old demography, old areas, old borders for the next 70 years. OR, we can solve the issue based on what the situation is right now because the truth is all those pundits who left aren't coming back, all the Muslims that left or died aren't coming back, so how about we focus on the people that are actually there and suffering right now?

We if you want that then wait for Hindu terriorist to kill many muslims like pandits and then we will do that vote thing. Remember ISIS , the same thing terrorst did, removing non-Muslims.

It's simple but difficult, urge the UN to hold a proper plebiscite in all areas of Jammu and Kashmir but instead of keeping it so facile, focus on individual areas (constituencies, basically). Divide the whole area into many manageable constituencies. Whichever areas have majority voting for India can go ahead and join India. Whichever want Pakistan can join Pakistan and whichever want autonomy can become autonomous. Then we will see what the Kashmiris want and we will respect their decision.

The displaced people will automatically return to the places if the problem is solved like that. However, we would need to make sure Kashmiris are given the right to go to whichever part of Kashmir they want to.

But then comes the issue of keeping it fair and countless sub-issues, which I am sure can be solved if both countries put their stupid politics aside and work on it with the UN's help. Of course, that will never happen as long as India's unfair and supremacist mentality is prevalent.

Now PAK made the mistake for not opting for Vote in 1947, time has lost and now not a single inch will give or take . If muslims are so interested ,they can go to PAK like hindu forced to moved from J&K.

Interesting Shia dominated Muslims didn't wanted to join PAK and non any big muslims migrated form J&K to PAK, which says a lot.

 

[WikiLeaks 15]

Point 1 & 3 ...

 

[TankMan]

lol, Buddy , I said most of the PAK people don't know UN resolution .......

A) First Condition or First Step is to be taken by PAK ,is removing its force . When it is done, then the publicise can happen only.

B) PAK was aware that in 1947 muslims will keen to join India or remain impended.

C) thats why PAK didn't remove the troop and dose not wanted to do publicise.

You have to compete school in order reach engg. college or get admission in engg. college without passing school class? You are trying to telling us that we can engg college admission without passing school class.




Muslims Terriorts only killed hindus thats why they migrated. See the ISIS killing non-muslims today, its take some more then blind for not seeing.


Yea it is possible to find each and every one to do that.


lol are you mad , anyone in PAK say anything about ISI/ PA cannot spend its single night alive , forget about AJK. they will be killed. and yes many were killed .



Why PAK give area to china without asking kashmir people? it tell a lot of Azad your J&K is.



then why it don't have PM /president etc.



We if you want that then wait for Hindu terriorist to kill many muslims like pandits and then we will do that vote thing. Remember ISIS , the same thing terrorst did, removing non-Muslims.



Now PAK made the mistake for not opting for Vote in 1947, time has lost and now not a single inch will give or take . If muslims are so interested ,they can go to PAK like hindu forced to moved from J&K.

Interesting Shia dominated Muslims didn't wanted to join PAK and non any big muslims migrated form J&K to PAK, which says a lot.

Great, thanks for replying with a bunch of BS i can refute extremely easily. Again, shows how brainwashed and miseducated some Indians unfortunately are.

lol, Buddy , I said most of the PAK people don't know UN resolution .......

Well, buddy, I know the UN resolution.

A) First Condition or First Step is to be taken by PAK ,is removing its force . When it is done, then the publicise can happen only.

The UN resolution said that the 'tribesmen' must withdraw from the territory, which they eventually did when the ceasefire was reached in 1949. India did not uphold its part to withdraw from the territory which was to be followed by a plebiscite.

B) PAK was aware that in 1947 muslims will keen to join India or remain impended.

Oh really? Please do give me a source, or otherwise tell me how your enlightened brain is so sure about this.

thats why PAK didn't remove the troop and dose not wanted to do publicise.

Publicise? Are you trying to say 'plebiscite' / 'referendum' or are you being a genius and inventing things?

You have to compete school in order reach engg. college or get admission in engg. college without passing school class? You are trying to telling us that we can engg college admission without passing school class.

Completely irrelevant analogy. India was perfectly capable of starting a withdrawal and complying with the UN resolutions. There was no 'school' to go to and complying with a UN resolution is not 'engg college' [sic]

Muslims Terriorts only killed hindus thats why they migrated. See the ISIS killing non-muslims today, its take some more then blind for not seeing.

They migrated because of the war and the fact that area had a Muslim majority. There was some violence, as is to be expected in a war but there was no genocide of Hindus. There was no mass murder. It takes someone more than delusional to believe that.
Terrorists are formed as a result of politics. ISIS is not relevant to the discussion, do not try to bring it in.

Yea it is possible to find each and every one to do that.

Oh really?

Why PAK give area to china without asking kashmir people? it tell a lot of Azad your J&K is.

First of all, Pakistan did not give any area to China. Pakistan simply withdrew its claim on some territory that was in fact being administered by China.

Why did Pakistan do it? Aside from the fact that China was being a man actually trying to solve the dispute, it was the cold war and good relations with China were in Pakistan's best interest. It's called foreign policy, educate yourself about it.

then why it don't have PM /president etc.

Good lord, did you read what you just said? I said Gilgit Baltistan is NOT a separate state, it is just an administrative unit and you're asking me why it doesn't have a Prime Minister. That's because it is not a state, it's an administrative unit.
Administrative division - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We if you want that then wait for Hindu terriorist to kill many muslims like pandits and then we will do that vote thing. Remember ISIS , the same thing terrorst did, removing non-Muslims.

Why should we wait, you've already done it.
Human rights abuses in Jammu and Kashmir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Massacre of Jammu Muslims, November 1947 - Kashmir Global

Again, stop dragging ISIS in. It's completely different and irrelevant to the topic. If you want to talk about Muslims and Terrorism, I suggest you do that on another thread.

Now PAK made the mistake for not opting for Vote in 1947, time has lost and now not a single inch will give or take . If muslims are so interested ,they can go to PAK like hindu forced to moved from J&K.

Why should they leave their own lands? The Hindus didn't leave Jammu. They weren't forced anywhere.
Many, many Muslims went to Pakistan long before your suggestion, they migrated out of Indian territory back in 1948.

Interesting Shia dominated Muslims didn't wanted to join PAK and non any big muslims migrated form J&K to PAK, which says a lot.

No, it doesn't say a lot because it doesn't make sense. What do you mean by 'Shia dominated' Muslims?
If you are talking about Shias themselves,you're wrong. They're as patriotic as any other Pakistani. If you want to claim otherwise, give proof. Give me one credible source that says Shias didn't want to join Pakistan.

 

[third eye]

Why are we discussing all this so much ?

The reasons why there will be no plebiscite is

a) Its ' best before' date has expired long since.

b) India does not want it.

 

[trident2010]

Good points by OP and I am sure India have already made these and much more intricate points to UN and all other influential bodies and they also recognise plebiscite is not an option anymore if we cite any past agreement.

In the current scenario only country can pursue India for referendum is India itself. So in the nutshell Kashmir is atoot aang of India and only practical solution which India might consider is to make LOC as the international border and normalise the relations with Pakistan.

 

[PakEye]

Why are we discussing all this so much ?
The reasons why there will be no plebiscite is
a) Its ' best before' date has expired long since.
b) India does not want it.

Why you feeling giddiness, frustration and daze for discussion on Indian Occupation on Kashmir!

Date of Expiry ??? this is not a made in India substandard Product
Kashmiri peoples are alive and continuously struggling against Indian Illegal Occupation !!!

The peoples of Indian Occupied Kashmir want plebiscite for Freedom from Indian Occupation.
they are continuously hostage from 1947 Kashmiri want Freedom from India.

 

[ito]

Why you feeling giddiness, frustration and daze for discussion on Indian Occupation on Kashmir!

Date of Expiry ??? this is not a made in India substandard Product
Kashmiri peoples are alive and continuously struggling against Indian Illegal Occupation !!!

The peoples of Indian Occupied Kashmir want plebiscite for Freedom from Indian Occupation.
they are continuously hostage from 1947 Kashmiri want Freedom from India.

there won't be any plebiscite in kashmir.

now pakisatnis can go cry anywhere they want..indians don't care

 

[PakEye]

there won't be any plebiscite in kashmir.
now kashmiris can go cry anywhere they want..indians don't care

Plebiscite in ASSAM

 

[Prometheus]

Bamboo of little dark color is short in market they took all in Afraid
View attachment 138530

if this dude is not Indian , then what he is doing in India??? which visa he has ??? is he illegal here??? alert the authorities ....and deport him from where ever he came

 

[PakEye]

if this dude is not Indian , then what he is doing in India??? which visa he has ??? is he illegal here??? alert the authorities ....and deport him from where ever he came

He is Kashmiri He is son of the Kashmir soil there is no need of any illegal Indian occupied visa

 

[Prometheus]

He is Kashmiri He is son of the Kashmir soil there is no need of any illegal Indian occupied visa

then why he is saying he is not Indian ??? Kashmir is in India .

 

[PakEye]

then why he is saying he is not Indian ??? Kashmir is in India .

Kashmir is illegally occupied by India and illegal indian visa is against Geniva Convention