Whose ideology is it anyway?

[arihant]

I think idea of Pakistan is tied with religion rather than culture. If Jinna could have lived longer and created platform for some specific culture (e.g. Indus Valley or something) than, Pakistan would not have been in this position. The real reason for mash is Identity loss.

 

[Developereo]

Geographically, maybe. But is that an ideology?

It's a unifying concept that binds the provinces through shared history going back to antiquity. It's something that every province can legitimately be a part of, without sacrificing its ethnic identity.

It will also restore that ancient civilization to its rightful place of honor, along with Islam, in the minds of Pakistanis. Similar to Iran or Egypt.

I have always felt it an absolute disgrace that we have let such a great part of our history languish in obscurity.

 

[mehru]

Do I detect sad resignation in the face of what looks like the inevitable?

You misunderstood me. I am asking to do things step by step. Read my previous post. I already said that we should continue our struggle to convince people that secularism will pose no danger to their Islamic identity. In the meantime, we should keep pushing Govt to give protection and rights to the minority. It's not the best way but in the current scenario, it is the best possible deal. It will be a first step, not the last.

What do you mean by inevitable? People are not going to change overnight. Everything takes time. No ideology could be forced. You have to convince first.People don't like secularism. They will oppose it. If you think that by any chance, Pakistan will become a theocratic state then that will not happen even. Most likely it will stay the same.

PS. I haven't given up though.

 

[w3whizz]

Assalam O alaikum, Well patriotism well its hard to find in elite of Pakistan. The only people who are sincere to Pakistan are people who are worried about their bread and butter. People who are giving their sweat and blood to this land loves this land. The elites have no interest in Pakistan so how would you expect patriotism from such people, and the worst thing is that these elite driving the nations mind, they are open in saying things like Pakistan has no future, it cant survive and no one speaks up. Isnt this should be taken as traitors of nation??????? but no who will take this action Cheif Justice, ???? Army??? Politicians??? None of them will take this action so its only come to Patriots of Pakistan.

 

[mehru]

They did not turn against the state but rather its government, like the Bengalis who were asking for what was rightfully theirs, a simple solution could have been reached through dialogue but our idiots went gung-ho on everyone who questions the disastrous decisions that are made by the puppet governments that we have.
Should a person just sit by ideally and let the same people who opposed this nation devour his land and its people. The only people who have worked against this state is that religious clergy, politicians and some generals who sold this nation for their own benefit. This has gone on to this day and only because these people are not labelled as traitors, they are still around and continue to harm this state. G.M Syed did not do any damage to the nation that can match what the rulers of this country do.

Well your comparison is right that the ruling elite did more damage.I don't mind if you call them traitors. They are in a way. However, initiating a separatist movement is not the way either. I have no sympathy for such people. No matter how much marginalized you are, your future lies with the state.

 

[twoplustwoisfour]

It's a unifying concept that binds the provinces through shared history going back to antiquity. It's something that every province can legitimately be a part of, without sacrificing its ethnic identity.

It will also restore that ancient civilization to its rightful place of honor, along with Islam, in the minds of Pakistanis. Similar to Iran or Egypt.

I understand where you are coming from, with modern day Egypt, Israel, Iran and Rome as examples of soceities bound together because of pride in their historical civilizations.

But modern day Pakistan is different. Indus Valley Civilization sometimes directly contradicts with current Pakistani ideology of Islam. For example, people of Indus Valley Civilization were known to indulge in Idol worshiping, and multiple gods. It was easier for other countries to embrace their geographical history because there was a continuity of that culture throughout history in one form or the other. It might be very difficult for Pakistan to do the same.

 

[angeldust]

Pakistan came into being on the plinth of a single ideology - Islam in peril. At that time it was Islam in peril against the overwhelming Hindu majority. Sadly, even today nearly 64 years down the line, Pakistan as an overwhelming Islamic majority nation is still in the throes of the same self perpetrated existential struggle - Islam in peril. Maybe it is time Pakistanis, and only Pakistanis, to ask themselves the question WHY? Why this constant insecurity? Why this overpowering need for exclusionism (is that even a word)? It is not something that can be linked to Islam necessarily, cause we have so many of our own muslims who are happily assimilated in a secular society. As are muslims of so many other countries. What is it about the core of the people who founded Pakistan 6 decades ago that forces them to be constantly embattled - from within and without?

 

[muse]

You are spot on and this is the tragedy that Develepero is referring to I think - the whole rejection of pre-Islam as Jahiliyah (the problem of the Islamicans is that they are bereft of history, therefore context is as alien a notion as it is to them) -- and this is the idea I was referring to when I suggested the idea of history(ies) and thousands of narratives open to the influence of discovery.

Allow me to point something out to you, I do not want to take a liberty, but it is generally not understood by Pakistanis, certainly, but also some Indians, that this whole ideology of Islam as a ISM, is absolutely antithetical to the common understanding of Science and method - for instance, the idea of "progress" simply does not exist in Islam as a ISM - please do think about the implications of this -- After all what use does Utopia have of any idea of evolving or discovering, indeed the idea of discovery also is alien in Islam as a ISM.

 

[T-Faz]

Pakistan came into being on the plinth of a single ideology - Islam in peril. At that time it was Islam in peril against the overwhelming Hindu majority. Sadly, even today nearly 64 years down the line, Pakistan as an overwhelming Islamic majority nation is still in the throes of the same self perpetrated existential struggle - Islam in peril. Maybe it is time Pakistanis, and only Pakistanis, to ask themselves the question WHY? Why this constant insecurity? Why this overpowering need for exclusionism (is that even a word)? It is not something that can be linked to Islam necessarily, cause we have so many of our own muslims who are happily assimilated in a secular society. As are muslims of so many other countries. What is it about the core of the people who founded Pakistan 6 decades ago that forces them to be constantly embattled - from within and without?

You are quite wrong on your assumption and have taken the line put forward by the religious parties of Pakistan.

One of our most persistent national myths — put forward by both the state and its detractors — is that Pakistan was created in the name of Islam.

It is said that Pakistan was created with the use of the slogans “Islam in danger” and “Pakistan ka matlab kya, La illaha ilallah”, both slogans which — ironically — were never used by Quaid-e-Azam himself. Indeed Jinnah ruled out “Pakistan ka matlab kiya, La illaha illallah” when he censured a Leaguer at the last session of the All India Muslim League after partition in these words: “Neither I nor the Muslim League Working Committee ever passed a resolution — Pakistan ka matlab kiya — you may have used it to catch a few votes.”

Nevertheless, the fact that Pakistan was created as a result of a group’s nationalism, which was based — in whatever watered down form — on common religious beliefs, has damned Pakistan to a perpetual identity crisis that continues to sap its vitality. That no one on top since September 11, 1948 has been able to talk sense in this country has only aggravated our predicament.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

 

[angeldust]

I agree that your religious parties, misc fundamentalist organisations, ruling polity, and army all use the Islam in Peril card rampantly to serve their own agendas and keep the awaam quiet. But the awaam is increasingly buying into the deal as is evident to what is happening in your country. No more can you say that the ones doing this are a minority who hold to ransom the silent terrified but largely sane majority. That tide has turned a long time ago, insidiously, and has now become really virulent. They are now the majority, and those like you on this forum with your heads screwed on right are sadly an ensieged minority. The tipping point is probably long gone, whether you realise it or choose to recognise it for the truth or not. Muse I assume alludes to the righteous awaam taking up arms against the madmen and paying them back in their own coin. But how are you going to do that, when you are outnumbered and outarmed 1000 to 1, 10000 to 1? And those you have entrusted to protect you, have as much if not more buy-in into the same self-serving Islam in Peril rhetoric?

 

[T-Faz]

I agree that your religious parties, misc fundamentalist organisations, ruling polity, and army all use the Islam in Peril card rampantly to serve their own agendas and keep the awaam quiet. But the awaam is increasingly buying into the deal as is evident to what is happening in your country. No more can you say that the ones doing this are a minority who hold to ransom the silent terrified but largely sane majority. That tide has turned a long time ago, insidiously, and has now become really virulent. They are now the majority, and those like you on this forum with your heads screwed on right are sadly an ensieged minority. The tipping point is probably long gone, whether you realise it or choose to recognise it for the truth or not. Muse I assume alludes to the righteous awaam taking up arms against the madmen and paying them back in their own coin. But how are you going to do that, when you are outnumbered and outarmed 1000 to 1, 10000 to 1? And those you have entrusted to protect you, have as much if not more buy-in into the same self-serving Islam in Peril rhetoric?

The tide turned decades ago, specifically during the Zia period where the discourse of the nation was successfully changed to a more Islamic one, the hardline ideological one to be precise. The 'Islamization' project ended abruptly when Zia died and we had some time in the 90's to revert back to the liberal nation that we once were but that did not work out. Political tussles and inept government made the situation even worse, we reap today what was sowed by the rulers in the late 70's and 80's.

Institutes were cleansed of 'free thinkers' and liberals who were targeted in order to remove them of any position of power. However all the people who were kicked out are still around and they successfully kept their ideals alive even amongst the ruling people. The assassination of Governor Taseer and Minister Bhatti proves that there are still progressive and liberal thinkers present within out setup but this irks the Islamists immensely.

Now they have taken to using terrorists and extremists to eradicate the people who can and are challenging them

But there is still hope because all and one liberal or secular Pakistani will have to killed if these people want to succeed.

And the day isn't far when a violent revolt against the extremist occurs because these people are slowly pushing everyone to the edge.

 

[angeldust]

Its weird to be saying this to a Pakistani, but we wish you nothing but the best in this fight. The initial blood-lust most Indians shared for everything Pakistani post 26/11 has subsided to a large extent, and in spite of ourselves we feel for you as we hear endless stories of bomb blasts and assassinations almost daily. I do not know what the future holds for your country, but I at a personal level would be even ready for a national policy of repatriation should Pakistan implode and the sane minority need refuge.

 

[Developereo]

I understand where you are coming from, with modern day Egypt, Israel, Iran and Rome as examples of soceities bound together because of pride in their historical civilizations.

But modern day Pakistan is different. Indus Valley Civilization sometimes directly contradicts with current Pakistani ideology of Islam. For example, people of Indus Valley Civilization were known to indulge in Idol worshiping, and multiple gods. It was easier for other countries to embrace their geographical history because there was a continuity of that culture throughout history in one form or the other. It might be very difficult for Pakistan to do the same.

I don't see why Pakistan should be any different from these other countries. Israel and India have the easier task since their ancient history coincides with Judaism/Hinduism, but Iran, Egypt and Italy manage to practice Islam/Christianity just fine while honoring their ancient pagan culture.

I think a reaffirmation of the IVC into the national psyche is precisely the kind of thing that will instill awareness and tolerance of other religions and cultures. People might be averse to accept contemporary 'foreign' religions, but IVC is 100% part of our history and we have every right to celebrate it as our heritage.

 

[angeldust]

Chill bro and don't get defensive. It was said with the best of intentions.

 

[angeldust]

I don't see why Pakistan should be any different from these other countries. Israel and India have the easier task since their ancient history coincides with Judaism/Hinduism, but Iran, Egypt and Italy manage to practice Islam/Christianity just fine while honoring their ancient pagan culture.

Pagan culture? Persia (Iran) was the cradle of the world's oldest montheistic religions my friend.