Who Won the Air War in 1971?

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

IAF was successful in its objectives of doing it's bit towards the overall effort. That means success and therefore victory.

Again, the outcome of the 1971 war is not in question, and as I pointed out earlier, you linked your question to the outcome, thereby trivializing the entire exercise of having a discussion since you asked and answered your own question.

What would you like us to do? Try and show that India did not win the 1971 war?

If not, and if victory in the war indicates IAF superiority, then what do you want us to discuss?

The only thing to discuss might be how the IAF fared against the PAF in A2A combat.

An additional avenue to explore, if you want to apply a more comprehensive approach to the idea of Aerial warfare, may perhaps be an analysis of the war on the Western Front.

 

[ejaz007]

There are certain topics that are repeated again and again and members from India and Pakistan don't agree on them. This topic is one of them.

Before opening such a thread one should keep in mind the ground realities during 1971. I shall limit myself to the air aspect. At the time of war there were about 200 IAF fighters positiones against East Pakistan against 16 of PAF Sabers. At the end of war PAF destroyed 11 Sabers to prevent their capture. This is well documented. This means we only lost 5 during the war and all were not lost to IAF some definitely went down to ground defenses too.

With the kind of air power at the disposal of the IAF against East Pakistan and also the small element of IN air wing against the sole PAF air base IAF/IN were not able to destroy PAF and PAF from time to time managed to get air borne and inflict damages.

Considering this I do believe that what ever the outcome of the conflict morally and efficiency wise PAF won the air battle.

 

[third eye]

There are certain topics that are repeated again and again and members from India and Pakistan don't agree on them. This topic is one of them.

Before opening such a thread one should keep in mind the ground realities during 1971. I shall limit myself to the air aspect. At the time of war there were about 200 IAF fighters positiones against East Pakistan against 16 of PAF Sabers. At the end of war PAF destroyed 11 Sabers to prevent their capture. This is well documented. This means we only lost 5 during the war and all were not lost to IAF some definitely went down to ground defenses too.
With the kind of air power at the disposal of the IAF against East Pakistan and also the small element of IN air wing against the sole PAF air base IAF/IN were not able to destroy PAF and PAF from time to time managed to get air borne and inflict damages.

Considering this I do believe that what ever the outcome of the conflict morally and efficiency wise PAF won the air battle.

How would you consider a AF who destroys its AC without putting them the into battle ( even in a near loose situation) when the integrity of the nation was at stake ? Were the pilots fearful of their lives or did the PAF run out of ATF ?

I feel that raising issues like is thread is out of place after so many yrs, but now that we are discussing it I am curious to know the thoughts of the PAF then. I can accept rotary wing assets flying into Burma as they may not have contributed to delaying the fall of Dhaka, but fighters being destroyed by the PAF amounts to surrender before Niazi did. If the fighters could not be flown to Burma, & were to be destroyed, why not go down in battle ?

... & still the PAF ' won' the air war ?

 

[Indicom]

While respecting the sacrifices of the Mukti Bahini,the above pics posted was a result of the bombing campaign by the naval Sea Hawks & the Alize operating from INS Vikrant off Coxbazaar,Chittagong.

 

[Muradk]

How would you consider a AF who destroys its AC without putting them the into battle ( even in a near loose situation) when the integrity of the nation was at stake ? Were the pilots fearful of their lives or did the PAF run out of ATF ?

I feel that raising issues like is thread is out of place after so many yrs, but now that we are discussing it I am curious to know the thoughts of the PAF then. I can accept rotary wing assets flying into Burma as they may not have contributed to delaying the fall of Dhaka, but fighters being destroyed by the PAF amounts to surrender before Niazi did. If the fighters could not be flown to Burma, & were to be destroyed, why not go down in battle ?

... & still the PAF ' won' the air war ?

Does any of us look afraid or in a state of panic remember we were fighting 10 to 1 in East PAK

Wise words of a old friend

 

[Vinod2070]

I have the answer
India won every time BUSS HAPPY NOW. This discussion is like the Kashmir Issue can never be solved.

Considering that this thread was prompted by your comment in another thread:

Yar Vinod I don't expect such comments from you. We all know who controlled the skies and there is nothing to be ashamed about it. Yes I admit we lost east Pakistan but we did kick IAF butt and you being an educated person cannot deny that.

I was expecting a more vigorous defense than this. Something beyond that 1965 BBC interview video, beyond General Chuck Yeager's comments and beyond a comment by some supposed USAF general to someone's uncle that Sargodha is the best air force training institute in the world (surprisingly no one mentioned it here).

I thought this is easier than the Kashmir issue.

Anything that India and Pakistan touch becomes intractable it seems!

 

[third eye]

Does any of us look afraid or in a state of panic remember we were fighting 10 to 1 in East PAK

Wise words of a old friend

What you look like is of no consequence... what you did / do is what matters. Looks do not kill, at least when the shooting war stars.They are only relevant in peace time & for PR films.

I could post pics of well turned & aggressive looking POW's standing in Indian POW camps... even NIazi did not look scared in the pic wherein signed on the dotted line.

PS. Were PAF pilots taking group photographs of themselves during the war ?

 

[Vinod2070]

Again, the outcome of the 1971 war is not in question, and as I pointed out earlier, you linked your question to the outcome, thereby trivializing the entire exercise of having a discussion since you asked and answered your own question.

What would you like us to do? Try and show that India did not win the 1971 war?

If not, and if victory in the war indicates IAF superiority, then what do you want us to discuss?

The only thing to discuss might be how the IAF fared against the PAF in A2A combat.

An additional avenue to explore, if you want to apply a more comprehensive approach to the idea of Aerial warfare, may perhaps be an analysis of the war on the Western Front.

The idea was to discuss the air war in the Western theater only. I know PAF was hopelessly outnumbered in the Eastern theater and I never even went there.

This discussion started from Mr. Muradk's post in another thread. I wanted to explore the basis of the claims of Pakistan's victory in the air war and air-supremacy and how that could possibly be when the overall outcome was the opposite.

And may be the expectation was that someone will discuss the issues raised in the original article and try to explain Pakistan's POV on those issues.

Sadly we never got beyond the 1965 BBC video and General Chuck Yeager's comments.

 

[Muradk]

Mr MuradK, are you blessed with divine visison that you look at the photograph and still be able to tell what is going on in their minds? A photograph is just a snapshot that is captures time of less than a fraction of a second. And this is the proof that you present against a line of argument. Very amateurish indeed

Careful _________________________________.

 

[Vinod2070]

There are certain topics that are repeated again and again and members from India and Pakistan don't agree on them. This topic is one of them.

Before opening such a thread one should keep in mind the ground realities during 1971. I shall limit myself to the air aspect. At the time of war there were about 200 IAF fighters positiones against East Pakistan against 16 of PAF Sabers. At the end of war PAF destroyed 11 Sabers to prevent their capture. This is well documented. This means we only lost 5 during the war and all were not lost to IAF some definitely went down to ground defenses too.

With the kind of air power at the disposal of the IAF against East Pakistan and also the small element of IN air wing against the sole PAF air base IAF/IN were not able to destroy PAF and PAF from time to time managed to get air borne and inflict damages.

Considering this I do believe that what ever the outcome of the conflict morally and efficiency wise PAF won the air battle.

I don't even see the need to discuss the air war in the Eastern theater. That was one-sided with the PAF totally outnumbered.

It is about the air war in the Western theater where the odds were more even.

 

[EagleEyes]

What you look like is of no consequence... what you did / do is what matters. Looks do not kill, at least when the shooting war stars.They are only relevant in peace time & for PR films.

I could post pics of well turned & aggressive looking POW's standing in Indian POW camps... even NIazi did not look scared in the pic wherein signed on the dotted line.

PS. Were PAF pilots taking group photographs of themselves during the war ?

PAF did, and IAF couldn't do. The ratio of air battles won by PAF is too much compared to the IAF. Its not even worth discussing. This thread is started by someone who is confused about his air force when he heard from somebody from the other side who FOUGHT it.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

How would you consider a AF who destroys its AC without putting them the into battle ( even in a near loose situation) when the integrity of the nation was at stake ? Were the pilots fearful of their lives or did the PAF run out of ATF ?

I feel that raising issues like is thread is out of place after so many yrs, but now that we are discussing it I am curious to know the thoughts of the PAF then. I can accept rotary wing assets flying into Burma as they may not have contributed to delaying the fall of Dhaka, but fighters being destroyed by the PAF amounts to surrender before Niazi did. If the fighters could not be flown to Burma, & were to be destroyed, why not go down in battle ?

... & still the PAF ' won' the air war ?

no offense, but I don't think you understand what he was trying to say. PAF destroyed their aircraft so the enemy could not get their hands on it. If they destroyed 11 out of 16 aircraft by themselves, which means they were able to keep that much aircraft against everything the IAF had. that clearly shows something.

 

[third eye]

no offense, but I don't think you understand what he was trying to say. PAF destroyed their aircraft so the enemy could not get their hands on it. If they destroyed 11 out of 16 aircraft by themselves, which means they were able to keep that much aircraft against everything the IAF had. that clearly shows something.

C'mon...

My primary Q remains..if the PAF intended to destroy these AC, why not loose them in battle ? Were the pilots scared to loose their lives ? What was stopping them from taking at least one IAF Ac with them or knocking off a vital target as they went down ?

What was the point of 'saving' assets the Pak nation had entrusted to the PAF to save the Pak nation.. only to destroy them on the ground ?

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

I was expecting a more vigorous defense than this. Something beyond that 1965 BBC interview video, beyond General Chuck Yeager's comments and beyond a comment by some supposed USAF general to someone's uncle that Sargodha is the best air force training institute in the world (surprisingly no one mentioned it here).

I thought this is easier than the Kashmir issue.

Anything that India and Pakistan touch becomes intractable it seems!

and what do you have to offer besides Bharat-Rakshak, which magically becomes a reliable source? honestly, I don't see the point of this discussion at all, there's no clear evidence. we can just work with whatever we have.

1965 BBC interview clearly shows us indian claims being trashed, while the USAF air chief's comments pretty much say Sargodha is the best. I don't get how you can just discredit that, this isn't a science where we need people with degrees in DogFight-ology or a PhD in Air Combat.

it's one man's word against the other, and obviously we would rather stick with the USAF on this one. do you have any pro-indian claims made by the Soviets, you can check their records?

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

C'mon...

My primary Q remains..if the PAF intended to destroy these AC, why not loose them in battle ? Were the pilots scared to loose their lives ? What was stopping them from taking at least one IAF Ac with them or knocking off a vital target as they went down ?

What was the point of 'saving' assets the Pak nation had entrusted to the PAF to save the Pak nation.. only to destroy them on the ground ?

have you bothered researching into the matter yourself? the runway was bombed to oblivion!!! chances for martyrdom ran out when the runway was bombed, many times over.