Who Won the Air War in 1971?

[Vinod2070]

None of what you mention is an exclusive Pakistani preserve!

That thinking is what has led to so many blunders earlier and that is the reason that led to this thread being opened.

 

[melb4aust]

Dont get me wrong here. i could say the same to you

Besides it was you who started this thread, probably the same reason as per u suggested "Exclusive Indian Preserve" and thats why this thread being here at first place.

 

[Windjammer]

Here is a break down of IAF losses in the Western front, these do not include any Indian aircraft destroyed on the ground.

 

[chindit]

I count 40+ air to air claims by Pakistanis. an exaggeration of 3:1. Take for example the claim of three Hunters on Dec 5 by Sqn Ldr Farooq Umar and his wingman. This claim does not even get a mention in the recent articles published by well known pakistani writers - Kaiser tufail, usman shabbir etc

and that claim of two su-7s by wing cdr hashmi - the second sukhoi is actually his own wingman! - refer to recent article F-6 at war

 

[Windjammer]

I count 40+ air to air claims by Pakistanis. an exaggeration of 3:1. Take for example the claim of three Hunters on Dec 5 by Sqn Ldr Farooq Umar and his wingman. This claim does not even get a mention in the recent articles published by well known pakistani writers - Kaiser tufail, usman shabbir etc

and that claim of two su-7s by wing cdr hashmi - the second sukhoi is actually his own wingman! - refer to recent article F-6 at war

Although posted elsewhere, but for your enlightenment, i am posting again the official version written by a Western Historian soon after the war.

 

[Windjammer]

Apart from the details in the article, it later became apparent that the IAF lost more aircraft on the ground due to PAF raids then initial claims.
Similarly, the IAF admitted to the loss of only a single MIG-21 in air combat while PAF had recorded and claimed two aerial victories against the MIGs, however subsequent scrutinization proved that the IAF actually lost three such aircraft in air dog fights, two of them to the humble F-86s while another was taken out by an F-6 (MIG-19).

 

[Goodperson]

Apart from the details in the article, it later became apparent that the IAF lost more aircraft on the ground due to PAF raids then initial claims.
Similarly, the IAF admitted to the loss of only a single MIG-21 in air combat while PAF had recorded and claimed two aerial victories against the MIGs, however subsequent scrutinization proved that the IAF actually lost three such aircraft in air dog fights, two of them to the humble F-86s while another was taken out by an F-6 (MIG-19).

Even if one believes your statement is true then you have just won the battle but do think who won the war.

 

[RiazHaq]

While outwardly claiming to dismiss Pakistan as a defeated and failed state, the Indians continue to show by their actions that they are paranoid about their much smaller neighbor to the West by maintaining most of their troops close to the border with Pakistan.

For example, twenty four of the thirty three Indian infantry divisions are near Pakistan's borders. All three of India's armored divisions are poised against Pakistan. All three of India's mechanized divisions are positioned on Pakistani borders.

If Indians have such an impeccable record of successes against Pakistan in past wars as they claim, why is it that, in practice, they are so fearful of their little neighbor? Why are they planning to increase defense spending by 50% to spend $40 billion, 33% more than the entire 2009-10 Pakistani budget of $30 billion, on defense in 2009-10? Could it be that, in their heart of hearts, they really do not believe their own propaganda and their claims of victory over Pakistan are really hollow?

Haq's Musings: Demolishing Indian War Myths about Pakistan

 

[Windjammer]

Even if one believes your statement is true then you have just won the battle but do think who won the war.

Firstly those are not my personal statements,

And in hindsight, if you had kept a record of BSF bodybags returning from Bangladesh border, you probably wouldn't need to raise the question.

 

[chindit]

Although posted elsewhere, but for your enlightenment, i am posting again the official version written by a Western Historian soon after the war.
[/IMG]

Aha! which western historian are we talking about?

A quick search on google brings up the name of the author of the article "Post Mortem of an Air War" and it is none other than

Mr. John Fricker

Official PAF historian who also wrote the 65 battle for pak book.

And why exactly are those scans censored?are you hiding some information there that you dont want to share with us?

 

[chindit]

Apart from the details in the article, it later became apparent that the IAF lost more aircraft on the ground due to PAF raids then initial claims.

Really how? Back that up with any sources?

Similarly, the IAF admitted to the loss of only a single MIG-21 in air combat while PAF had recorded and claimed two aerial victories against the MIGs, however subsequent scrutinization proved that the IAF actually lost three such aircraft in air dog fights, two of them to the humble F-86s while another was taken out by an F-6 (MIG-19).

recommended reading Aeronaut: F-6s at War
Aeronaut: Mirages at War
time to update history with articles published in 2009 than from 1972 (which will be propaganda bits)

 

[Windjammer]

Aha! which western historian are we talking about?

A quick search on google brings up the name of the author of the article "Post Mortem of an Air War" and it is none other than

Mr. John Fricker

Official PAF historian who also wrote the 65 battle for pak book.

And why exactly are those scans censored?are you hiding some information there that you dont want to share with us?

For that time, I would say any third party was more credible than a home grown crops like P.S. Chopra, and what's this nonsense about scan censor, surely you don't assume that I have the originals in my possession.

 

[chindit]

For that time, I would say any third party was more credible than a home grown crops like P.S. Chopra, and

Oh John Fricker is a neutral unbiased source? The only people who think so are pakistanis Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Battle for Pakistan: The Air War of 1965

what's this nonsense about scan censor, surely you don't assume that I have the originals in my possession.

Then post the originals. you censored the authors name - who were you trying to fool. what are the other parts that were "whited out" - what do they say? I refer to the large block of whited out portion and another in the mirage photo caption. does it have something you dont want us to read?

 

[chindit]

and read the article from Kaiser Tufail

On the afternoon of 8 December, two patrolling F-6s of No 23 Squadron flown by Wg Cdr S M H Hashmi and Flt Lt Afzal Jamal Siddiqui were vectored on to two Su-7s, just as they were exiting after attacking Risalewala airfield. Hashmi caught up with one of the pair, about ten miles east of the airfield, and let off a Sidewinder. The missile homed on unmistakably and the Su-7 exploded above the tree-tops; the pilot was not seen to eject. The remains of Flt Lt Ramesh Gulabrao Kadam [7] were later discovered around the wreckage near the small town of Khalsapur. Hashmi immediately started looking for the other Su-7 and, to be sure of his No 2’s safety, called out for his position. Afzal replied but the transmission was garbled, which Hashmi interpreted as his No 2 being visual with him and, assumed that he was somewhere in the rear quarters. Just then Hashmi picked contact with the second aircraft and did not think twice before launching a missile. If there was any difference between the similar-looking planforms of the Su-7 and F-6, this was surely one time to have had a closer look. His No 2 was nowhere in sight and his frantic unanswered calls to Afzal seemed to confirm Hashmi’s worst fear. Had he mixed up his quarry in the murky winter haze? Afzal, who was chasing the second Su-7 at high speed and had ended up ahead of his leader, was not able to clearly convey his position on a broken radio. Hashmi, an otherwise unflappable squadron commander, should have known better, for he had been too eager for a second kill which unfortunately ended up as a horrific fatality for his wingman. [8]

PaF pilots shoots down wingman - and John Fricker claims it as a second Sukhoi

 

[Windjammer]

Really how? Back that up with any sources?




recommended reading Aeronaut: F-6s at War
Aeronaut: Mirages at War
time to update history with articles published in 2009 than from 1972 (which will be propaganda bits)

I suggest you read, "My days with the IAF", by ACM P.C. LAL, who commanded the IAF during the 1971 war.
Oh, and one other source, Flt. Lt. Harish Sinhji, a Sirsa based MIG-21 pilot taken POW after being shot down over Pakistan. Apart from other information, he disclosed how one night of PAF bombing hit the hangers causing destruction of many aircrafts and over 200 casualties. Sometimes reading between the lines also helps as reading the following interesting chapter proves.